goopy refinishing or turblown coating
05-20-13, 08:07 AM
#26
Don't hate my V8
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fair enough
Obviously not all surface imperfections can be removed with the goopy refinishing process (not any that are deep anyway) but the idea is to have superior apex seal seating during the break in process?
any thoughts on turblowns coating RR?
who/what is/was jhb?
Obviously not all surface imperfections can be removed with the goopy refinishing process (not any that are deep anyway) but the idea is to have superior apex seal seating during the break in process?
any thoughts on turblowns coating RR?
who/what is/was jhb?
05-20-13, 09:44 AM
#27
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jhb was a canadian company that sprayed the rotor housings with a cermet coating, thought to be what the 787B used.
however unlike the 787B the coating fell right off, and then there were some issues with getting your housings back vs some other ones
however unlike the 787B the coating fell right off, and then there were some issues with getting your housings back vs some other ones
05-20-13, 10:02 AM
#28
except that housings don't regenerate, multiply or have children to grow up and be productive adults in society. that said i highly doubt mazda still even produces the earlier 13B housings at all any longer.
processes should be worked out to at least get acceptable results from marginal parts.
problem is, by your explanation a 6.5 housing which would probably cause difficulty in starting, sub 80 initial compression figures and probably barely scratch 100psi when fully broken in as compared to the 8 finished product which would probably make 100+psi at first crank and make 110+ when broken in isn't an unreasonable alternative. but the question is, where to find good replacements? because the only ones i'm seeing going up for sale on ebay are either your scrapped housings, someone else's junked housings or some retarded expensive housings from the UK.
not like FCs are littering wrecking yards these days, we see probably 2 per year now and they only last a month before they're bones and crushed. even the engines which used to sit in the cars and sometimes get crushed with them are getting yanked quite early.
processes should be worked out to at least get acceptable results from marginal parts.
problem is, by your explanation a 6.5 housing which would probably cause difficulty in starting, sub 80 initial compression figures and probably barely scratch 100psi when fully broken in as compared to the 8 finished product which would probably make 100+psi at first crank and make 110+ when broken in isn't an unreasonable alternative. but the question is, where to find good replacements? because the only ones i'm seeing going up for sale on ebay are either your scrapped housings, someone else's junked housings or some retarded expensive housings from the UK.
not like FCs are littering wrecking yards these days, we see probably 2 per year now and they only last a month before they're bones and crushed. even the engines which used to sit in the cars and sometimes get crushed with them are getting yanked quite early.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-20-13 at 10:12 AM.
05-20-13, 10:42 AM
#29
Engine, Not Motor
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bigyellowcat I believe, the guy who built the 12 rotor boat engine, had developed a re-sleeving process for 13B housings. However like often happened he dropped of the forum after his project was done. Too bad, because if he could re-sleeve 13B housings for say, $600 a set, he'd be in a place to make some serious money.
And in this day of cheap CNC I don't know why it's not done. CNC the old sleeve out, then press in the new. If I had the equipment it's damn sure that I'd be spending every waking moment figuring it out.
And in this day of cheap CNC I don't know why it's not done. CNC the old sleeve out, then press in the new. If I had the equipment it's damn sure that I'd be spending every waking moment figuring it out.
05-20-13, 11:46 AM
#30
there's companies that have the ability to do it, but the question is: is it actually worthwhile? BYC already has the CAD drawings and likely the first to do it since he already went through the trouble but when you drop $100k into an engine making a few thousand a year off of remachining rotor housings and sleeving them seems a little futile for the effort. i believe he did not make the sleeves and they cost much more than you would be led to believe.
most shops capable will have the same mentality. it's simply not worth doing a $300-400 job when the rotor housings new are $650. a company would have to drop everything and do complete runs of housings to even show a profit and there simply isn't that much demand and never will be. it would eventually be cost effective once the machined housings came back for a new pressed in sleeve, but that's like investing $10,000 into making $15,000 10 years from now(not real figures), which is a gamble on top of that.
the rotary market simply has to make do with what is already out there. there are also companies like G-force that have cast new housings with their own sleeves but you can bet they will probably be in the neighborhood of $1500 each. in fact several companies have made their own completely custom housings, but how will a sleeved housing fare? who really knows the answer. the sleeve will float and itch and also have less thermal conductive properties of a cast on sleeve housing will, not to mention possible sleeve warpage issues. all of the custom housings seem to be aimed at the rotary drag racing market, which only has to deal with heat in short but excessive bursts.
having dealt with many machine shops you get an idea of what it takes. even with the CAD drawings it still takes time to set up the machine and do the actual work. for example i sent out a set of rotor housings to have coolant seal channels milled for an early 13B block, the initial job cost $500 and the subsequent jobs cost $350, even at $350 most people are unwilling to spend that kind of money on these cars for just a single process out of dozens to hundreds. how many more have i sent in to have that same job performed in the past 2 years? none.
most shops capable will have the same mentality. it's simply not worth doing a $300-400 job when the rotor housings new are $650. a company would have to drop everything and do complete runs of housings to even show a profit and there simply isn't that much demand and never will be. it would eventually be cost effective once the machined housings came back for a new pressed in sleeve, but that's like investing $10,000 into making $15,000 10 years from now(not real figures), which is a gamble on top of that.
the rotary market simply has to make do with what is already out there. there are also companies like G-force that have cast new housings with their own sleeves but you can bet they will probably be in the neighborhood of $1500 each. in fact several companies have made their own completely custom housings, but how will a sleeved housing fare? who really knows the answer. the sleeve will float and itch and also have less thermal conductive properties of a cast on sleeve housing will, not to mention possible sleeve warpage issues. all of the custom housings seem to be aimed at the rotary drag racing market, which only has to deal with heat in short but excessive bursts.
having dealt with many machine shops you get an idea of what it takes. even with the CAD drawings it still takes time to set up the machine and do the actual work. for example i sent out a set of rotor housings to have coolant seal channels milled for an early 13B block, the initial job cost $500 and the subsequent jobs cost $350, even at $350 most people are unwilling to spend that kind of money on these cars for just a single process out of dozens to hundreds. how many more have i sent in to have that same job performed in the past 2 years? none.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-20-13 at 11:59 AM.
05-20-13, 11:56 AM
#31
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Mazda already did the sleeve thing, sometimes it falls off, which is why they went to the sheetmetal insert process, they had to do it pretty early on too, like 71-72
imo the rotor housing is pretty well developed, you're probably ahead by just buying a pair of new ones
imo the rotor housing is pretty well developed, you're probably ahead by just buying a pair of new ones
05-20-13, 03:04 PM
#32
Seems you can still get Brand New Rotor housings from quite a few different sources, at a premium however. When I rebuilt my RX in 2002 or so, I got 2 brand new housings for about $800 from mazdatrix.
JHB = J.H.B. Performance - Cermet-Coated Rotary Engine Components
NEW
89-91 13B Turbo Rotor Housings
Mazda FD3S RX7 13B REW Brand New Rotor Housings F R | eBay
On another note, there have been some developments in plasma spraying which would be promising for refurbishing old warn out rotor housings and could become fairly economical. There was a good discussion we had about Nika-sil coated housings and the like..
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-p...plates-903326/
Plasma spraying (cool stuff)
Plasma-Tec your Parts from Raw Stock to Your Dock with Surface Coatings!
Plasma Spray Coatings | Plasma Coatings | Spray Coatings | Thermal Barrier Coatings | Ceramic Coatings | Carbide Coatings | Metal Coatings | Alloy Coatings
SAE: Ford launches plasma-sprayed cylinder bores on 2011 Shelby V8
JHB = J.H.B. Performance - Cermet-Coated Rotary Engine Components
NEW
89-91 13B Turbo Rotor Housings
Mazda FD3S RX7 13B REW Brand New Rotor Housings F R | eBay
On another note, there have been some developments in plasma spraying which would be promising for refurbishing old warn out rotor housings and could become fairly economical. There was a good discussion we had about Nika-sil coated housings and the like..
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-p...plates-903326/
Plasma spraying (cool stuff)
Plasma-Tec your Parts from Raw Stock to Your Dock with Surface Coatings!
Plasma Spray Coatings | Plasma Coatings | Spray Coatings | Thermal Barrier Coatings | Ceramic Coatings | Carbide Coatings | Metal Coatings | Alloy Coatings
SAE: Ford launches plasma-sprayed cylinder bores on 2011 Shelby V8
05-20-13, 10:11 PM
#33
Don't hate my V8
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again, this thread is getting off topic....
anyway. racing beats aluminum side housings are plasma spray hardened and im pretty sure honda uses plasma sprayed cylinders in the s2000
FC housings are still more less then FD housings: Cart Price Check Part:10-B10A-N318
but still looking at 1400 for a pair
anyway. racing beats aluminum side housings are plasma spray hardened and im pretty sure honda uses plasma sprayed cylinders in the s2000
FC housings are still more less then FD housings: Cart Price Check Part:10-B10A-N318
but still looking at 1400 for a pair
05-20-13, 11:33 PM
#34
To be fair, that was 40 years ago, materials and technology have changed, so some things may be possible and cost effective now that were not at the time. Back then no one would have dreamed of an aluminum sleeved V8 block in production for stock streetcars and now we have them making 800-1000hp+ with these LS motors running around.
05-21-13, 08:17 AM
#35
Don't hate my V8
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so is the actual surface the apex seal rides on just a layer of chromium on top of just a mild steel sheet or something a little more exotic?
05-21-13, 11:03 AM
#38
i don't know the whole process of chromium plating but i don't think you can simply block off the tub, fill it up and have it plated that way but i could be wrong. i only know of one person who is attempting to rechrome the housings and it's been like a 3+ year wait.
it's also still going to be a $350-400 process at best. the least amount of steps necessary the lower the final cost will be.
plasma spray is probably going to be the next best alternative but whether it will work over the existing chrome is the question. depending on the application method it may not even be necessary to remachine, ie not applied manually but a turntable at a set RPM could be doable but would probably result in thickness variations due to the trochoid surface since it is not a round surface.
as to the original question i haven't seen any reviews of turblown's treatment, i have used resurfaced housings with decent success though, but as kevin mentioned it really depends on the original condition of the housings. even resurfacing 200k mile housings gave satisfactory results compared to the scrap that the housings would have been. this is more for future process though for most people once the housing market has dried up and people are forced to consider those 5-7 rating housings. you can still find near pristine used pairs of housings for in the $350-400 range, which is a bump from several years ago when they were $250 a pair.
another alternative is ceramic COATED apex seals, i believe JHB tried this but they've failed miserably at just about anything they have attempted so i would be looking for more experienced metallurgists.
it's also still going to be a $350-400 process at best. the least amount of steps necessary the lower the final cost will be.
plasma spray is probably going to be the next best alternative but whether it will work over the existing chrome is the question. depending on the application method it may not even be necessary to remachine, ie not applied manually but a turntable at a set RPM could be doable but would probably result in thickness variations due to the trochoid surface since it is not a round surface.
as to the original question i haven't seen any reviews of turblown's treatment, i have used resurfaced housings with decent success though, but as kevin mentioned it really depends on the original condition of the housings. even resurfacing 200k mile housings gave satisfactory results compared to the scrap that the housings would have been. this is more for future process though for most people once the housing market has dried up and people are forced to consider those 5-7 rating housings. you can still find near pristine used pairs of housings for in the $350-400 range, which is a bump from several years ago when they were $250 a pair.
another alternative is ceramic COATED apex seals, i believe JHB tried this but they've failed miserably at just about anything they have attempted so i would be looking for more experienced metallurgists.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-21-13 at 11:19 AM.
05-21-13, 12:00 PM
#39
and with all this talk i'm going to do some research on ceramic and friction coatings to supplement those old tired housings.
i haven't really paid attention for years because most applications simply aren't up to the task, these coatings need to surpass 300,000psi and 1000*C. maybe some things have progressed to that point in recent years.
i haven't really paid attention for years because most applications simply aren't up to the task, these coatings need to surpass 300,000psi and 1000*C. maybe some things have progressed to that point in recent years.
05-21-13, 07:08 PM
#40
Don't hate my V8
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I doubt mazda would develop their own chroming process for the housings. i imagine the steel liner is coated the same way steel bumpers are coated albeit with a more controlled and purer chomeium solutions
05-22-13, 11:40 AM
#42
The chrome layer on rotor housings is much thicker than what you'd find on a bumper or wheel. I do not have exact specs or an accurate way to measure, but it's a large fraction of 1mm thickness, while chrome plating on a bumper or wheel may be just a few hundredths thick.
05-22-13, 11:48 AM
#43
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they show a man instead of the plating process, but
05-22-13, 01:23 PM
#44
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The chrome layer on rotor housings is much thicker than what you'd find on a bumper or wheel. I do not have exact specs or an accurate way to measure, but it's a large fraction of 1mm thickness, while chrome plating on a bumper or wheel may be just a few hundredths thick.
05-22-13, 01:48 PM
#45
first you'd have to find a shop in a county/state that can do the process that needs to be performed.
like kevin mentioned most plating processes now are very thin and watered down, back in the day when you got a chrome bumper it was as thick as the plating we are working with on these housings.
chromium plating has been severely hindered because the byproduct is extremely cancerous and many states/counties outlaw chromium plating altogether. others allow it but it is a weaker process with watered down chromium alloys on a copper base to adhere to, the actual chrome plating is paper thin, like a gold plated necklace.
other platings would serve as better replacements to the chrome, like nickalsil or ceramics but we're not nearly as well funded as mazda is so it likely won't happen or is still a ways off. problem is adhesion to the pressures/forces and temperatures i mentioned earlier which are rather unique to the rotary engine. the best method would be to strip all the chrome off and bond the materials to the steel liner, which requires investment and time running the test engines with various types of seals under various conditions.
if i had a few hundred thousand to throw at it i'm sure it is possible to find alternatives that work long term, others are just crap shoots and guinea pigs with pencil on paper results. machining the chrome down works but is a short term solution. how long would it take to get the investment back? longer than most are willing to accept.
like kevin mentioned most plating processes now are very thin and watered down, back in the day when you got a chrome bumper it was as thick as the plating we are working with on these housings.
chromium plating has been severely hindered because the byproduct is extremely cancerous and many states/counties outlaw chromium plating altogether. others allow it but it is a weaker process with watered down chromium alloys on a copper base to adhere to, the actual chrome plating is paper thin, like a gold plated necklace.
other platings would serve as better replacements to the chrome, like nickalsil or ceramics but we're not nearly as well funded as mazda is so it likely won't happen or is still a ways off. problem is adhesion to the pressures/forces and temperatures i mentioned earlier which are rather unique to the rotary engine. the best method would be to strip all the chrome off and bond the materials to the steel liner, which requires investment and time running the test engines with various types of seals under various conditions.
if i had a few hundred thousand to throw at it i'm sure it is possible to find alternatives that work long term, others are just crap shoots and guinea pigs with pencil on paper results. machining the chrome down works but is a short term solution. how long would it take to get the investment back? longer than most are willing to accept.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-22-13 at 02:00 PM.
05-22-13, 03:32 PM
#46
first you'd have to find a shop in a county/state that can do the process that needs to be performed.
like kevin mentioned most plating processes now are very thin and watered down, back in the day when you got a chrome bumper it was as thick as the plating we are working with on these housings.
chromium plating has been severely hindered because the byproduct is extremely cancerous and many states/counties outlaw chromium plating altogether. others allow it but it is a weaker process with watered down chromium alloys on a copper base to adhere to, the actual chrome plating is paper thin, like a gold plated necklace.
other platings would serve as better replacements to the chrome, like nickalsil or ceramics but we're not nearly as well funded as mazda is so it likely won't happen or is still a ways off. problem is adhesion to the pressures/forces and temperatures i mentioned earlier which are rather unique to the rotary engine. the best method would be to strip all the chrome off and bond the materials to the steel liner, which requires investment and time running the test engines with various types of seals under various conditions.
if i had a few hundred thousand to throw at it i'm sure it is possible to find alternatives that work long term, others are just crap shoots and guinea pigs with pencil on paper results. machining the chrome down works but is a short term solution. how long would it take to get the investment back? longer than most are willing to accept.
like kevin mentioned most plating processes now are very thin and watered down, back in the day when you got a chrome bumper it was as thick as the plating we are working with on these housings.
chromium plating has been severely hindered because the byproduct is extremely cancerous and many states/counties outlaw chromium plating altogether. others allow it but it is a weaker process with watered down chromium alloys on a copper base to adhere to, the actual chrome plating is paper thin, like a gold plated necklace.
other platings would serve as better replacements to the chrome, like nickalsil or ceramics but we're not nearly as well funded as mazda is so it likely won't happen or is still a ways off. problem is adhesion to the pressures/forces and temperatures i mentioned earlier which are rather unique to the rotary engine. the best method would be to strip all the chrome off and bond the materials to the steel liner, which requires investment and time running the test engines with various types of seals under various conditions.
if i had a few hundred thousand to throw at it i'm sure it is possible to find alternatives that work long term, others are just crap shoots and guinea pigs with pencil on paper results. machining the chrome down works but is a short term solution. how long would it take to get the investment back? longer than most are willing to accept.
05-22-13, 08:32 PM
#48
Sideways is the only way
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we will all be trying to do renesis swaps in a decade, they will be cheaper then getting FC or FD housings lol. then after that, we will all be doing v8 swaps, complaining about how we hate them and crying about the death of the rotor housing market. May god help the rotary enthusiast.
really, its quite interesting but I agree with rotaryevolution. No one is willing to put the time in to figure this out. its too expensive and the rotary car market is a very small market compared to almost any other sports car market. Not to mention the percentage of rotary owners who would be willing to use the service. Here's hoping though.
really, its quite interesting but I agree with rotaryevolution. No one is willing to put the time in to figure this out. its too expensive and the rotary car market is a very small market compared to almost any other sports car market. Not to mention the percentage of rotary owners who would be willing to use the service. Here's hoping though.
05-22-13, 08:53 PM
#49
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In fact they did just that. If you read the SAE papers that are published by Mazda, they went through great lengths to develop a porous chrome plating that would retain oil. Regular chrome plate does not hold oil.