good standalone?
Thread Starter
Rotary Freak
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,534
Likes: 28
From: Good Ol' Ky
haha
its not like i'm trying to get one this week end or anything....
my s4 to s5 conversion is going to be a rather slow process
so i'm in no rush..
i just need to know some good choices so that i can be sure i'm getting what i want..
catch my drift? =P
its not like i'm trying to get one this week end or anything....
my s4 to s5 conversion is going to be a rather slow process
so i'm in no rush..
i just need to know some good choices so that i can be sure i'm getting what i want..
catch my drift? =P
Originally Posted by cardzrule
If thats true then howd peeps tune engines back when there werent any such thing as wideband O2 sensors? I know theres been car engines a long time befor wideband O2 sensors invented.
I would assume that you would tune off of knock. Piston motors are capable of that.
Nebulon
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by bunnybunny
well most cars didn't have EFI back then
hense forth they were carbed
hense forth they were carbed
Originally Posted by J-Rat
I would assume that you would tune off of knock. Piston motors are capable of that.
Originally Posted by cardzrule
so whats teh dif between tuning a carb or efi? Rich is still rich and lean is still lean and knock is still knock.
79 rx7 aint got no wideband. Maybe teh 12a is just better than teh 13b?
79 rx7 aint got no wideband. Maybe teh 12a is just better than teh 13b?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 29,798
Likes: 128
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by bunnybunny
well most cars didn't have EFI back then
hense forth they were carbed
hense forth they were carbed
EFI really came into use in the early to mid '80s for imports, and domestics a little later. Mazda was at the forefront as always.
Plenty of ways to tune without a wideband. Smell, exhaust gas analysis, feel, etc.
Why would you say price is no object if you don't have any money? You've just wasted two pages in a thread.
If you need cheap yet still versatile, you cannot beat the Megasquirt as long as you are willing to do some DIY.
Thread Starter
Rotary Freak
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,534
Likes: 28
From: Good Ol' Ky
correction... 3 pages not 2
and like i said.. i'm not looking for something fast...
i would just like to know what some good options for standalones are...
and i didn't twist anyones arms to post.. you did that on your own free will
and like i said.. i'm not looking for something fast...
i would just like to know what some good options for standalones are...
and i didn't twist anyones arms to post.. you did that on your own free will
Nebulon
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by J-Rat
That made absolutely no sense..
Means that its wrong what you said about needing a wideband to tune efi wether on teh dyno or street.
Originally Posted by cardzrule
Plenty of ways to tune without a wideband. Smell, exhaust gas analysis, feel, etc.
Means that its wrong what you said about needing a wideband to tune efi wether on teh dyno or street.
Means that its wrong what you said about needing a wideband to tune efi wether on teh dyno or street.
Lol.. Ive read some of your other posts, you are definately a class act.
Nebulon
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by bunnybunny
and like i said.. i'm not looking for something fast...
Originally Posted by J-Rat
LOL!!! Well you guys go RIGHT ON AHEAD and tune without the benefit of a wideband. I am well aware there are other ways to tune, but why would you when the 02 sensor is the best way?
Lol.. Ive read some of your other posts, you are definately a class act.
Lol.. Ive read some of your other posts, you are definately a class act.
Originally Posted by cardzrule
thx. RX7s been running mad tite for over 20 years wit no wideband. Im glad I dont gotta buy no xpensive wideband but itd be nice if youd said straight up that a wideband aint needed. Also glad you like readin my posts.
Sorry, I would never be as reckless as to recommend tuning a boosted car without a wideband. You want to do it, have fun buying motors. If you are tuning an N/A without a wideband, have a good time.
So if you want me to say that a wideband isnt needed, you will be waiting a long time.
Nebulon
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by J-Rat
So if you want me to say that a wideband isnt needed, you will be waiting a long time.
neway, so how you splane how mazda made teh 2gen and 3gen turbo cars run wit no wideband?
Originally Posted by cardzrule
Dood you said that in ur last post lol.
neway, so how you splane how mazda made teh 2gen and 3gen turbo cars run wit no wideband?
neway, so how you splane how mazda made teh 2gen and 3gen turbo cars run wit no wideband?
Well, lets see here.... Mazda did all the tuning, using the wideband (and I would imagine other things like Ve, etc..), during the testing phases. At this point they wrote a fuel map that was used on every car. This is one of the main reasons that emissions are such an issue. Every motor is different, but if you run the same map and make it rich, you dont have to tune EVERY car that comes out of the factory. That would be cost prohibitive. Ever stop to ponder why everyone that has stuck a wideband on thier stock car found out it was rich?
Its not a hard concept to follow really. My car doesnt even have a wideband installed in it, because once the car is tuned, the wideband is no longer needed. I stated that TUNING witout a wideband is reckless, but you dont need one to drive with once the tuning is set.
So, there it is, I have "splaned" how mazda ran "TEH" car "wit" no wideband.
Originally Posted by cardzrule
neway, so how you splane how mazda made teh 2gen and 3gen turbo cars run wit no wideband?
You don't need a wideband in your car 24/7 to make it run. They're for tuning only, you don't seem to be grasping that. As for Mazda, they probably tuned a bunch of motors, found a nice safe map and then copied and pasted that map into every ecu for that engine. They're all close to identical so there is no need to tune every single one.
I too have read a few of your posts and I gotta say the "teh" and using z's everywhere is annoying the **** out of me!
-John
edit: Damn I type slow. Beaten by the Rat.
Nebulon
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 224
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From: USA
Originally Posted by J-Rat
Well, lets see here.... Mazda did all the tuning, using the wideband (and I would imagine other things like Ve, etc..), during the testing phases.
The third and most recent zirconia dioxide oxygen sensor is the ‘wide band’ ‘lean burn’ type (or Air Fuel Sensor) and available at NTK only in five-wire. The heater resistance ranges from 12 to 15 ohms. The output signal is considered discrete voltage levels between 0 and 5 volts to offer exact air/fuel mixtures. Bosch announced the development of this ‘wide-band’ heated oxygen sensor in November 2001.
Originally Posted by cardzrule
So splane how mazda did all teh tuning during teh testing phases for teh 1988-1994 TURBO rx7s if teh wideband wasnt even invented till 2001. Maybe mazda gotz a time machine so they can tune their carz in teh future and then make them back in teh past?
http://home.att.net/~ngksparkplugs/w...or_History.doc
http://home.att.net/~ngksparkplugs/w...or_History.doc
Actually, the wideband was introduced a few years before that, but I will leave it up to you to figure out when that was since you are so smart.
Nebulon
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 224
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From: USA
Originally Posted by J-Rat
Actually, the wideband was introduced a few years before that, but I will leave it up to you to figure out when that was since you are so smart.
Originally Posted by November 2001 Bosch Reporter
The newest O2 sensor technology from Bosch builds upon the planar design and adds the ability to actually measure the air/fuel ratio directly for the first time. Instead of switching back and forth like all previous sensor designs, the new wide-band O2 sensor produces a signal that is directly proportional to the air/fuel ratio.
The wide-band sensor uses a "dual sensing element" that combines the Nernst effect cell in the planar design with an additional "oxygen pump" layer and "diffusion gap" on the same strip of ceramic. The result is a sensor element that can precisely measure air/fuel ratios from very rich (10:1) to extremely lean (straight air). This allows the engine computer to use an entirely different operating strategy to control the air/fuel ratio. Instead of switching the air/fuel ratio back and forth from rich to lean to create an average balanced mixture, it can simply add or subtract fuel as needed to maintain a steady ratio of 14.7:1.
Like a zirconia thimble or planar-type sensor, the wide-band sensor produces a low-voltage signal when the air/fuel ratio goes lean, and a high-voltage signal when the mixture is rich. But instead of switching abruptly, it produces a gradual change in the voltage that increases or decreases in proportion to the relative richness or leanness of the air/fuel ratio. So, at a perfectly balanced air/fuel ratio or 14.7:1, a wide-band O2 sensor will produce a steady 450 mv. If the mixture goes a little richer or a little leaner, the sensor's output voltage will only change a small amount instead of rising or dropping dramatically.
Another difference in the wide-band O2 sensor is the heater circuit. Like a planar sensor, it is printed on the ceramic strip. But the heater circuit is pulse-width modulated to maintain a consistent operating temperature of 1292 to 1472 degrees F. the sensor takes about 20 seconds to reach operating temperature.
planar narrowband HEGO = 1997
3gen rx7 twinturbo = 1993
2gen rx7 turboII = 1987
Aint no way mazda tuned any turbo rx7 wit a wideband. Sorry dood but ur wrong. No need to be a hater just coz I can Serch mad quick yo. Thanx to Aaron Cake for helping out teh noob.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 329
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From: Tucson, AZ. USA
You're limiting your search to Bosch brand wideband sensors. They're a relative newcomer to the scene. Hitachi & NGK (NTK) had widebands in 1986-1987 and the auto manufacturers started utilizing them shortly thereafter. By 1991 Horiba had a wideband available for public purchase. Any old Joe with enough cash could buy one.
I think Ari Yallon still has one of the early Horibas on his dash. It's the size of a house.
http://www.horibalab.com/
I think Ari Yallon still has one of the early Horibas on his dash. It's the size of a house.
http://www.horibalab.com/
Last edited by Trevor; Oct 29, 2005 at 01:12 PM.
Nebulon
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: USA
Originally Posted by Trevor
You're limiting your search to Bosch brand wideband sensors. They're a relative newcomer to the scene. Hitachi & NGK (NTK) had widebands in 1986-1987 and the auto manufacturers started utilizing them shortly thereafter. By 1991 Horiba had a wideband available for public purchase. Any old Joe with enough cash could buy one.
I think Ari Yallon still has one of the early Horibas on his dash. It's the size of a house.
http://www.horibalab.com/
I think Ari Yallon still has one of the early Horibas on his dash. It's the size of a house.
http://www.horibalab.com/
Originally Posted by NTK History
Oxygen sensors have been given various names over the years. Exhaust gas oxygen sensor (EGO); O2 (oxygen) Sensor; Lambda Sensor; Titania Oxygen Sensor; Zirconia Oxygen Sensor; Narrow-Band Oxygen Sensor; Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor (HEGO) (heated planar-type introduced by Bosch in 1997); Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor (UEGO) and Air/fuel Ratio or Wide-Band Oxygen Sensor (introduced by Bosch November 2001 and now available from NTK) are the more common names in the automotive industry.
If you woudda read teh NTK link I posted youd see that I didnt limit my search to bosch. Neway bosch made teh first UEGO wideband sensor in 2001 dood, and even NTK sez so.
If you gotta link showing otherwise then post it.