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A good coilover kit

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Old Sep 17, 2013 | 02:18 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by clokker
More grist for the mill:

Even assuming you splash for nice coilovers (whatever the rich, cool kids buy these days- Ohlins, Penskes, Bueller?), they still need to be set up.
Not easy to do.

Edit:
Jeez, lots of activity while I slowly carved my last response...
Anyway, there is a misunderstanding about the way "stiffness" is being advocated here.
A suspension that is always stiff and unresponsive is useless and counterproductive.

"Race" suspensions seem stiff to the average mortal because they aren't driving at the level the suspension was set up for.
Go fast enough and generate the g-force found in race conditions and the suspension should be compliant and supple.
No driver wants a punishing suspension, they put up with it at 8/10 so it will work better at 10/10.


Originally Posted by RotaryEvolution
this is true of most any IRS rear wheel drive car. allowing the rear end to float cures alot of understeer conditions for grip. if it was a drift setup then the car should be stiffened up at all 4 corners and camber corrections along with tire pressure can set how easily the rear breaks out.

most of the attention is always done to the front of the car first and foremost and then oversteer issues resloved afterwards.


I really love all the responses from RE and clokker.


RE understands. All his info is good to study and gives you "questions" to search on the internet for, so you can better educate yourself.

clokkers response just proves *why* in my earlier post I gave you my "setup" settings. You cant just throw coilovers on and expect awesome things to happen, they need tuning, and no one seems to discuss that.

When I first threw my coilovers on and would run 30/30 or 15/15..... Numb. No response or feeling. 15F/10R UNDERSTEERED HORRIBLY. (Most people think since the front end is heavy... No.)

Finally after discussing my frustration with my racing buddy, he suggested to try out "10F/15R" (After getting on my *** ONCE AGAIN, for choosing coilovers over kyb/GC...) And my world was AMAZING. softer in the front is really nice, and after my own personal tweaking, I came to the "3F/7R" because as clokker says "Too stiff is counterproductive" and coilovers naturally are some stiff ****.
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Old Sep 17, 2013 | 02:27 PM
  #27  
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by stiff i don't mean the suspension is like a rock, it moves as it should but the dampening effect comes on extremely strong. this is good for high speed cornering but not so good for driving in a straight line and hitting a crack in the road(normal driving comfort).

stiffer is not always better even for high speed cornering, too stiff and the front end will still wash out because no road surface is ever truly 'perfect' which is why we have suspension in the first place, too soft and the car will roll too much and give the same result as the inside tire loses grip.

ideally you want both wheels staying level, planting as much rubber on the road as it possibly can(front of car) while actually leaving the rear settings relatively soft so it can fill in the gaps.

keep in mind, most of your road feel feedback will be coming from the front of the car.

Last edited by RotaryEvolution; Sep 17, 2013 at 02:35 PM.
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Old Sep 17, 2013 | 03:10 PM
  #28  
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From: Vriginia,
Originally Posted by scrapp
This is all cans of worms you're opening up...

I get curious about all that (mainly) ebay bracing you see.... Don't forget, Most if not all FC's now a days have VERY TIRED chassis than when first introduced... Lots of that is band-aids for aging. FCs have "poor" suspension geometry... Much better than a 350Z with its full McPherson setup. (FC's only have the McPherson setup in the front, the back is multi link... to a degree.... Thats why FDs and Miatas handle so great, they have Multilink ALL AROUND.... To this day, not many cars can say that... Its cheaper to stick with total McPherson setup... and most people are too dumb to know this.)

Anyway.... Going back to my track FC buddy.... he always told me to "STIFFEN THE LIVING **** OUT OF THE FRONT" (Polyurethane bushings everywhere, stiff *** strut and sway bars, etc etc) and to leave the rear *ALMOST* as soft as possible. (NO POLY BUSHINGS what so ever on the rear, save for DTSS elimination. So that means, Energy suspension or the like for ALL the bushings, and sometimes he would also run NO sway bar.)

Like I said, now your just opening more cans of worms, and I have basic laws of "DOs and DONTs" of FC suspension, I know others have even better answers for you.
Well thanks for opening mind to heavy research when I get off work. I'm not familiar with a McPherson setup or a multi link but you've deffinately got me intrigued and I'm not gonna lie that was my initial thought was to just stiffen the hell out of it but I figured it just sounded to easy and things aren't ever really that cut and dry but as for bushing I was looking into Energy and Drop Racing bushings I believe ill have to double check on the second one
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Old Sep 17, 2013 | 03:12 PM
  #29  
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From: Vriginia,
Originally Posted by clokker
More grist for the mill:

Even assuming you splash for nice coilovers (whatever the rich, cool kids buy these days- Ohlins, Penskes, Bueller?), they still need to be set up.
Not easy to do.

Edit:
Jeez, lots of activity while I slowly carved my last response...
Anyway, there is a misunderstanding about the way "stiffness" is being advocated here.
A suspension that is always stiff and unresponsive is useless and counterproductive.

"Race" suspensions seem stiff to the average mortal because they aren't driving at the level the suspension was set up for.
Go fast enough and generate the g-force found in race conditions and the suspension should be compliant and supple.
No driver wants a punishing suspension, they put up with it at 8/10 so it will work better at 10/10.
Clokker always good to hear from you thanks for the insight I remember asking a question and how exactly to tune a but it's wasn't in this thread may have been another. But I'm going to look into that as well thanks for the information and help as always
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Old Sep 17, 2013 | 03:17 PM
  #30  
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From: Vriginia,
Originally Posted by RotaryEvolution

this is true of most any IRS rear wheel drive car. allowing the rear end to float cures alot of understeer conditions for grip. if it was a drift setup then the car should be stiffened up at all 4 corners and camber corrections along with tire pressure can set how easily the rear breaks out.

most of the attention is always done to the front of the car first and foremost and then oversteer issues resloved afterwards.
Thanks for that info I had people tell me the FC was t ideal for drifting but it is good to know what direction to take if I decide I want to drift the car(though I highly doubt it will happen)
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Old Sep 17, 2013 | 10:29 PM
  #31  
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My FC is mostly street driven up north on not very smooth roads, but I also take it to track day events - no drifting. I had run KBY AGX struts/shocks with Eibach springs - it also has ES poly bushings, DTS eliminators, RB bars and a very light weight 17" wheel/tire combo. I ran the fronts at 2 and the rears at 4. The ride was smooth enough, but the action was under dampened even on the street. Tightening up the settings only made the ride harsher, not better dampened nor improved the overall control dynamics

I decided to go with a set of Stance GR+ Pro coil overs (called something else now). I knew the supplied springs were going to be way too stiff for street use, so I called their tech support line and asked how soft of springs that I could use with the stock valving in the coil overs. I then bought a set of Hyperco springs that matched those softest recommendations. I installed the kit and set the front and rears to the softest setting. The ride quality is much improved - smoother than before with the KYB AGX and Eibachs, yet with vastly improved dampening, especially rebound. And all this with drastically reduced compression and droop travel. Plus I can firm things up as needed on the track. A true win-win situation.

This setup is well worth the price of admission - but of course and always, YMMV.

Last edited by DeaconBlue; Sep 17, 2013 at 10:31 PM.
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Old Sep 18, 2013 | 07:00 AM
  #32  
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From: Vriginia,
Originally Posted by DeaconBlue
My FC is mostly street driven up north on not very smooth roads, but I also take it to track day events - no drifting. I had run KBY AGX struts/shocks with Eibach springs - it also has ES poly bushings, DTS eliminators, RB bars and a very light weight 17" wheel/tire combo. I ran the fronts at 2 and the rears at 4. The ride was smooth enough, but the action was under dampened even on the street. Tightening up the settings only made the ride harsher, not better dampened nor improved the overall control dynamics

I decided to go with a set of Stance GR+ Pro coil overs (called something else now). I knew the supplied springs were going to be way too stiff for street use, so I called their tech support line and asked how soft of springs that I could use with the stock valving in the coil overs. I then bought a set of Hyperco springs that matched those softest recommendations. I installed the kit and set the front and rears to the softest setting. The ride quality is much improved - smoother than before with the KYB AGX and Eibachs, yet with vastly improved dampening, especially rebound. And all this with drastically reduced compression and droop travel. Plus I can firm things up as needed on the track. A true win-win situation.

This setup is well worth the price of admission - but of course and always, YMMV.
Thanks man I was after thinking over all the advice that everyone gave me I was leaning towards your very idea thanks for the feedback and confirming what I'd hope be right the move
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Old Sep 18, 2013 | 04:35 PM
  #33  
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Another +1 for stance coilovers here.

I purchased my fc about 3 months ago. Drove it home and instantly put it up on jack stands and went to work. Replaced all the bushings with ES kit, put RB anti-sway bars, stance gr+ coilovers (with the 8k front and 6k rear springs), and front and rear under chassis bracing from ultra racing. I am still running crappy all-season tires and stock wheels but I will say the car handles night and day different than stock was. Granted the stock components were most likely worn out but I am happy with my current setup. It must also be noted that I have a fair amount of track experience under my belt at track days and autocross events over the last 5 years, although mostly in mustangs. So that means my setup is more aimed at being a DD as well as a track day car. The ONLY complaint I have with the Stance coilovers is that the front adjustment **** is on the bottom of the piece. That means I have to jack up the car in order to adjust the suspension.

Ultimately it is up to your personal preference. Coilovers work well on the street so long as the springs aren't really stiff. Conventional setup with better shocks and lower springs works well if you want to keep a more stock but aggressive feel. I drive my car 6 hours back to iowa to see family and another 6 hours back down to my place without any problems. Sure a few bumps can be rough on the highway but you learn to avoid them. My stock seat is much more of a factor to how comfortable I am for 6 hours than my suspension is.

One more thing that no one else has mentioned. You NEED to have your car 4-wheel aligned after you make ANY suspension changes front and rear. My car wandered a ton in the rear right after I performed all these modifications. I took it in to be aligned and it drove wonderfully after. Also, if you go for the coilovers, make sure you measure your ride height with your current setup. The coilovers with be adjustable so you can either lower your car "x" amount from stock or push it back up to stock height.

Whatever you decide, just make sure it's something you are happy with and will enjoy. The point of these cars is to be fun to drive so if you aren't going to be happy driving it, then what's the point? Give us updates as you go and let us know what you decide!
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Old Sep 18, 2013 | 04:44 PM
  #34  
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From: Vriginia,
Originally Posted by Lavitzlegend
Another +1 for stance coilovers here.

I purchased my fc about 3 months ago. Drove it home and instantly put it up on jack stands and went to work. Replaced all the bushings with ES kit, put RB anti-sway bars, stance gr+ coilovers (with the 8k front and 6k rear springs), and front and rear under chassis bracing from ultra racing. I am still running crappy all-season tires and stock wheels but I will say the car handles night and day different than stock was. Granted the stock components were most likely worn out but I am happy with my current setup. It must also be noted that I have a fair amount of track experience under my belt at track days and autocross events over the last 5 years, although mostly in mustangs. So that means my setup is more aimed at being a DD as well as a track day car. The ONLY complaint I have with the Stance coilovers is that the front adjustment **** is on the bottom of the piece. That means I have to jack up the car in order to adjust the suspension.

Ultimately it is up to your personal preference. Coilovers work well on the street so long as the springs aren't really stiff. Conventional setup with better shocks and lower springs works well if you want to keep a more stock but aggressive feel. I drive my car 6 hours back to iowa to see family and another 6 hours back down to my place without any problems. Sure a few bumps can be rough on the highway but you learn to avoid them. My stock seat is much more of a factor to how comfortable I am for 6 hours than my suspension is.

One more thing that no one else has mentioned. You NEED to have your car 4-wheel aligned after you make ANY suspension changes front and rear. My car wandered a ton in the rear right after I performed all these modifications. I took it in to be aligned and it drove wonderfully after. Also, if you go for the coilovers, make sure you measure your ride height with your current setup. The coilovers with be adjustable so you can either lower your car "x" amount from stock or push it back up to stock height.

Whatever you decide, just make sure it's something you are happy with and will enjoy. The point of these cars is to be fun to drive so if you aren't going to be happy driving it, then what's the point? Give us updates as you go and let us know what you decide!
I've decided to go with cusco coilovers anyway and see how the car handles and if its not to my liking ill look into getting some softer springs. Granted the roads where I live are t that great but I've been driving them so long areas that used to be really rough to me I have no problems.but thanks for feedback man was a great help
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Old Sep 18, 2013 | 05:42 PM
  #35  
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Thats true. I also did a corksport rear camber bar, and a full alignment after installing coils. I also didn't adjust my coilovers, I bolted them up to see where they sat and ended up leaving them as is. I would rather have something like 1.5 deg neg camber in the rear, and maybe 1 deg neg in front, but I ended up zeroing the whole car out so I could get more life out of my tires. I have other things going on in life, and I tried to look into the future for tire wear at this present moment in life.
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Old Sep 18, 2013 | 08:37 PM
  #36  
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Call up Ground Control, tell them what you're looking for. They will put together a custom setup for you.

I love mine.
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Old Sep 18, 2013 | 11:54 PM
  #37  
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I was originally going to do the ground control setup instead of Stance but I wanted the Koni yellows and they don't make Koni's for our car anymore. I was going to buy the Koni's and then buy the GC coilover kit later. That is the sole reason I decided to move up to a full coilover out of the box.
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Old Sep 19, 2013 | 09:36 AM
  #38  
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sway bars are an option to improve handling without making the ride unnecessarily harsh, just don't go overboard with huge bars. I caught this thread late, but I'm going to chime in anyways on the strut springs vs coilovers.

If you want to lower the car a little , improve handling and still be comfortable, strut and spring combo is the most reasonable route to go.
If you want more available variance in the height and still be comfortable you could go with some lower end coilovers, but you need to be aware that something by BC racing, ISC, megan or similarly price coilovers are possibly going to decrease performance rather than improving it. You'll have less roll in corners and dip while braking but the damping around the boards will be inconsistent and won't be conducive to better handling.

Buying coilover by cusco, ohlins, bilstein, is a pretty huge price jump over struts/springs or lower end coilovers, but there are more affordable options out there that offer custom valving like Fortune Auto, or FEAL (pretty sure he doesn't make any rx7 parts yet though), but a correctly damped coilover could be pretty harsh on US roads. Oh, plus you have to actually know what you need to buy a custom valved set of coilovers, with some really specific goals in mind, the finding of which is the hardest part.
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Old Sep 19, 2013 | 09:56 AM
  #39  
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From: Vriginia,
Originally Posted by Isam
sway bars are an option to improve handling without making the ride unnecessarily harsh, just don't go overboard with huge bars. I caught this thread late, but I'm going to chime in anyways on the strut springs vs coilovers.

If you want to lower the car a little , improve handling and still be comfortable, strut and spring combo is the most reasonable route to go.
If you want more available variance in the height and still be comfortable you could go with some lower end coilovers, but you need to be aware that something by BC racing, ISC, megan or similarly price coilovers are possibly going to decrease performance rather than improving it. You'll have less roll in corners and dip while braking but the damping around the boards will be inconsistent and won't be conducive to better handling.

Buying coilover by cusco, ohlins, bilstein, is a pretty huge price jump over struts/springs or lower end coilovers, but there are more affordable options out there that offer custom valving like Fortune Auto, or FEAL (pretty sure he doesn't make any rx7 parts yet though), but a correctly damped coilover could be pretty harsh on US roads. Oh, plus you have to actually know what you need to buy a custom valved set of coilovers, with some really specific goals in mind, the finding of which is the hardest part.
Never to late man my build is still in early planning phase that's why I'm doing so much research right now the feedback I get helping me alot. The build won't actually take place and be in full effect till early next year I'm gathering money.resources. And information first. The sooner all that is in order the sooner the build can actually commence. Again thanks for the input
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Old Sep 19, 2013 | 10:04 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Lavitzlegend
I was originally going to do the ground control setup instead of Stance but I wanted the Koni yellows and they don't make Koni's for our car anymore.
Wut?
Who told you that?
Ground Control - 86-91 RX-7 Super Street Kit
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Old Sep 19, 2013 | 12:17 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Molotovman
I called 3 different vendors and none of them could get me Koni's for an S4. Perhaps they still make them for S5 and up but they definitely told me Koni doesn't make anything for an '86 rx7 anymore.
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Old Sep 19, 2013 | 12:32 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Lavitzlegend
I called 3 different vendors and none of them could get me Koni's for an S4. Perhaps they still make them for S5 and up but they definitely told me Koni doesn't make anything for an '86 rx7 anymore.
Bro, suspensions are the same besides front LCA's but they are interchangeable.
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Old Sep 20, 2013 | 08:17 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Molotovman
The Koni Yellow struts for our car are discontinued in my Koni book.
P/n Front:86411200Sport
Rear: 80411111Sport
Those from ground control are inserts that have custom mounting for the fronts made. Similar to what I had to do for Bilsteins.

Another note, be careful with bushing material. Especially if you are lowering your car since you will gain some heavy negative camber.

I had a whole poly kit in my car, loved it, and realized polyurethane in the rear control arm bushing causes problems with camber correction parts in the rear end. (not so much the big center link, but it puts loads of stress on the AWR/MMR/Mazdatrix camber link pairs. so much that they are shown to snap) So I replaced the poly with a spherical bearing.
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Old Sep 24, 2013 | 12:26 PM
  #44  
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So many questions I've had for my FC suspension setup have been answered in this thread. Great info guys
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Old Sep 24, 2013 | 04:27 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by DeaconBlue
My FC is mostly street driven up north on not very smooth roads, but I also take it to track day events - no drifting. I had run KBY AGX struts/shocks with Eibach springs - it also has ES poly bushings, DTS eliminators, RB bars and a very light weight 17" wheel/tire combo. I ran the fronts at 2 and the rears at 4. The ride was smooth enough, but the action was under dampened even on the street. Tightening up the settings only made the ride harsher, not better dampened nor improved the overall control dynamics

I decided to go with a set of Stance GR+ Pro coil overs (called something else now). I knew the supplied springs were going to be way too stiff for street use, so I called their tech support line and asked how soft of springs that I could use with the stock valving in the coil overs. I then bought a set of Hyperco springs that matched those softest recommendations. I installed the kit and set the front and rears to the softest setting. The ride quality is much improved - smoother than before with the KYB AGX and Eibachs, yet with vastly improved dampening, especially rebound. And all this with drastically reduced compression and droop travel. Plus I can firm things up as needed on the track. A true win-win situation.

This setup is well worth the price of admission - but of course and always, YMMV.
What rates did you go with on your stance. I currently have 7k 5k using their house springs. I am thinking of going swift springs but I want to be sure on the rates firsts. Oh and if you haven't yet you should pick up some of the upper spring bearings for the front. Wakes up the steering a little.
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Old Sep 25, 2013 | 10:59 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Driftology
What rates did you go with on your stance. I currently have 7k 5k using their house springs. I am thinking of going swift springs but I want to be sure on the rates firsts. Oh and if you haven't yet you should pick up some of the upper spring bearings for the front. Wakes up the steering a little.
Interesting. The springs that came with my setup from Stance were 9K (about 500 lbs) front and 7k (about 390 lbs). I went with 400 lbs front (about 7.2K) and 275 lbs (about 4.9K) in the rear. I also am also using the small helper springs in the rear that are part of the Pro + kit.

One other thing to mention is rear ride height and rear camber - both make a major impact in ride and handling quality - too low of rear ride height and too much negative camber results in nasty traits on the street, especially with wide wheels and tires. Make sure you rear toe is correct and trust angle is zero out as well. These semi-trailing arm IRS can get a bit "quirky" if it is not setup correctly.
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