galaxy convoy

iTrader: (12)

Im having same issue as you but do you know what is the part number of the water thermo sensor?

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

go to Mazdatrix's website and type it in. It'll come up.

hypestar1983

last time i had this issue in my car i found the car to be making a sheering noise like when you need brake rotors and the car wouldn't go past 4000 easy(88 Na) i deflooded the engine and still had the problem. come to find out my omp had failed and i had leaky injectors, which caused my rear rotor to free spin and not go through compression cycles. i used a cap of AT fluid in the rear leading hole, cranked up the car and revved as high as i could in 10 second intervals. On try 5 i hear a gunshot see white smoke and my engine got its power back. Now i premix and i use an electric fan that's wired to the ecu fuse in the cabin. Having the fan wired this way makes my ecu run 6 seconds longer than the fuel pump when i shut the car off making my fuel pressure around 10 psi when the car is off so it doesn't flood my engine now and i can drive to the mailbox without fear of flooding. PS i know its old but i got an in cabin fuel pressure gauge and I'm at 38 idle and 42-44 WOT.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Even pops.

HAILERS

Your water thermo sensor is working just fine since it read what you say.

You can buy them from Autozone. Look for the part number online at Autozone. But I see no sense in buying one since your works fine.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Do you have any other ideas? Starts relatively normal once it's at least slightly warmed up but when it's cold I have to screw with it and play the waiting game.

HAILERS

Well, put that way.....buy another sensor and have at it?

Someone above sees fuel pressure at 38psi at idle. Ain't what it should be. Should be 28-32 at idle and if a non turbo car, will read 37-39 psi at WOT.

I don't think you have a fuel pressure problem though. Has the traits of a non working water thermo sensor. Autozone has them. I posted a jpg of the autozone page in the first part of this yr.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

I searched last night for hours and hours on different things like ignition issues sensors and whatnot. Hailers, I came across a thread where you had mentioned a starting circuit... You told someone to test the black with blue stripe wire on the small plug of the ecu. I did that just now but I did not see nine to ten volts upon starting. I saw more like 1.74 volts. So does this somehow mean the ecu is not using the right start map and is looking to the afm?could it maybe be my tps? I'm reaching here but I'm tired of the car sitting.

I'll look into the autozone thermo sender. Thanks.

I do appreciate your attempts at helping me track this down.

HAILERS

Well how 'bout that. I just had the thought about the ECU not seeing the Start signal and was going to post that thought.

It should be on pin 3B and the color should be Blue/Black (L/B).

3B is shown in the attached jpg on the small plug. Bottom row, far right looking into the wire side of the plug.

So, if you probe that wire and put the key to Start, and see no rise in voltage to 8-12vdc......then that is your starting problem. You only see voltage when the key is HELD to Start.

If the ECU does not see that start signal, then it uses the afm for fuel. Not enough fuel if the engine is cold, but plenty if the engine is hot. Hence the good hot/warm starting engine.

Don't buy the water thermo sensor if the above is true about your car.

You might ask yourself if anybody has bypassed the normal start wiring. As in adding a toggle switch or the like.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Yes, I back-probed the wire on the bottom right of the small plug...black with blue line. Had an assistant turn the car over (With the EGI fuse out so I could triple check using different grounding points) while I watched the voltage reading. As I said...1.74 volts was the most common number but when attempting to start it, it just jumped around from that number to like 2.something volts.

Too late, I already have been to autozone and purchased the new sender. That's 17$ I'll never get back because it's already installed in the car. Of course, it did not fix my problem. Marvelous.

*I* bypassed the start wiring. It's necessary when you perform the automatic to manual conversion, which I did. I followed closely with Kevin Landers' write-up, and I decided not to go with a clutch interlock for simplicity and less connections in between.
However, before you go saying this is all my fault, that simply is not possible because this problem when I bought it and before I got around to doing the conversion. Absolutely nothing changed from the time it was an automatic to when it was a manual symptom wise.

So, seeing as this problem was in existence prior to me converting the car..let's move forward now that we've at least got a lead. Can you explain to me that whole start signal? What it does, what it ties in with, what it connects to and the absolute simplest if not maybe ghetto way I can fix it?

The one thing that worries me is I have completely forgotten about a little mess I found before I bought the car, yet I bought it anyway.

The under-dash harness, that exits the lower driver-side firewall which is normally bound up by electrical tape..is..well...a mess. Not sure if the electrical tape simply broke apart and someone took the rest out or it looks maybe as if someone did some splicing. I honestly have absolutely no idea what all I'm looking at when I look at the myriad of colored wiring.

So, is there a means of fixing this that involves running a new wire from point a to point b at least as a temp fix just to be sure the car has been fixed before I go doing a more in-depth wiring job?

HAILERS

It's all YOUR fault! hee, hee, hee.

Opps. Auto to manual. Different plugs b/t the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. So I can see how it got overlooked. I'll think on it a few moments and write back. While I'm doing that, answer this: Does the car have factory Theft protection?

If the answer is no, then do us a favor. Remove the three 10mm nuts that hold the TRAIL coil down and lift up on that assy and see if you see a six socket BLUE connector ...or not. The BLUE connector will have a jumper wire in it. You'll see what that is if you have that 'Blue jumper plug on the car.

EDIT: Can you explain how you did the starter wiring? Like at the ignition switch the START wire is BLACK/GREEN and is on a single wire connector. Can you explain how it travels from there to the starter solenoid??? Or did you do it another way?

You also have ANOTHER problem due to this wiring. You also don't have batt voltage going to the one of the two coils in the Circuit Opening Relay. Normally you go to START and put batt power also on that relay as long as the key is to START. That act makes the fuel pump work as long as the key is held to Start. Once the engine actually starts up and you let the key leave Start and go back to ON, the other coil in the Circuit Opening Relay gets a ground put on it by the AFM, and that act keeps the pump running.

Yes, you could run a wire to 3B but it would have to have voltage on it only as long as the key is held to START. In other words have power only when you holding the key to START. Can't have pwr on that wire at the other times, like key to ON etc.

The automatic wiring is a little confusing to me when I look at the wiring manual. It the car has ABS it confuses me a bit.

HAILERS

Here's the way I see it. On a automatic car, that BLACK/GREEN wire at the ignition switch runs into the engine bay directly to the BLUE connector I described before.

So, you go to that BLUE connector and pull it off and set it aside. Now find the large BLACK/GREEN wire in the connector the BLUE jumper was connected to. Put a meter on that wire and find a gnd for your meters neg lead. Put the key to START and see if you see batt voltage on that BLACK/GREEN wire when you go to START.

IF you see that, then it seems to me you could run a wire from that BLACK/GREEN directly to your starter solenoids small blade. Done

The jpgs attached are just for ref. I erased the manual wires in the diagram for the auto car.........attached the original wiring diagram unaltered........attached a jpg of a ROUND plug with six wires that is a player.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

If I recall correctly, the starter wiring was very simple. The reason you need to bypass the wiring is because of all the safety interlocks that prevent the car from starting in any gear other than say neutral or park. The remedy for this was, yes, provided in Kevin Landers' write-up of how to do this entire swap. I simply took the gauge wire he specified to use and ran it from the ignition down thru the firewall and to the male spade on the starter solenoid. This should ONLY be the trigger wire to tell the starter to come on. Other than that and connecting the reverse lights to their appropriate wires...that is the only modification done to the ignition wiring! I could be wrong, so I'll double check in a few minutes when I go outside... however, there was only a need to disconnect the stock trigger wire (Black and yellow, I think?) and run a new one straight to the starter.. All this does is bypass the interlocks for the tranny.

Yes. The car is a very beautiful '88 GXL bathed in Arctic Silver with a luxurious blue velour interior. This all means that it came with a factory alarm/anti-theft system. I had been wondering about that because it does include an engine immobilizer...but the alarm system works flawlessly. Every sensor, switch and doo-dad on it works as it should because I've tested all of them by arming it and setting it off on purpose.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Alright, I do not seem to be finding a blue anything under/near the trailing coil pack. I see a white, round harness connected that has a black/green wire included in it's bundle. Is that what you're talking about?

Meanwhile, I found that one of those air hoses that connects on the driver side (one that goes from that metal hard pipe that sprawls out over top of the throttle body) and down to just under the TB near the oil filter was unplugged. I'm not entirely sure what it is, or what it's for...and I don't seem to remember disconnecting it at any point after I did the engine swap...AND the only picture I have from after I completed the swap around that area is unclear as to whether or not it was ever plugged in. Could this help to cause hard starts? I plugged it back in and tried to fire it...it didn't fire right up but it fired after maybe three seconds of cranking. So while idling I got out and pulled the hose off again...the idle dropped only slightly, but eh.. I dunno, it seems like it's part of the brake booster maybe?

Anyways, I'm going out to look at the plug I was speaking of and seeing if I can trace that wire back. Also, later on tonight I'll post iPhone pics of the under-dash wiring I was talking about. The more I look at it the more my stomach sinks. I think somewhere in there lies my problem...

maac0953

can you check for codes?

HAILERS

Ah ha. Has Theft protection, therefore no BLUE jumper connector.

You know where the MAIN RELAY is....I hope. Next to the MAIN RELAY should be the Starter Cut Relay. Pull the plug off the relay. You'll see a plug with the wire colors in the attached jpg. You'll see one large BLACK/GREEN and a large BLACK/WHITE......................eh, I'll stop right here. You say you have run a wire from the ignition switch directly to the starter solenoid.

The write up you followed isn't the way to do business. If you run a wire directly from the starter wire at the ignition switch to the starter solenoid, you fail to send the ECU a signal that your starting the engine and you fail to send batt voltage to one of the coils in the Circuit Opening Relay to activate the fuel pump during Start. The pump may yet activate if the air being pulled thru the afm is enough to pull the vane in the afm aft enough to MAKE the switch inside the afm to put a ground on the OTHER coil in the Circuit Opening Relay. The pump will run it that happens.

I'd bet that if you looked at the ignition switch plugs, you'll find a GREEN/BLACK wire on a single wire connector. IF so, let me know. A automatic car would have that wire and it should run all the way to the THEFT relays elect plug. IF someone were to connect the GREEN/BLACK wire at the ignition switch as a normal car would have it, you'd find that the plug on the Theft Relay would have power on it's green/black wire any time the key was put to START.

If that's so, then things could be put back to NORMAL.

I'll re-read what you wrote above and make more remarks later.

FYI: I didn't make things clear enough in the earlier posts. ON cars with NO theft protection, the Starter cut relay does not exist BUT the electrical plug for that relay, is on those cars. In place of the Starter Cut Relay is a BLUE jumper plug. The blue jumper plugs bridges the Green/Black wire with the Black/White wire in the plug on the harness. The other two/three wires in that plug are not used for anything in this case.

HAILERS

You mean these hose and metal tube?????

Send me your car via UPS and I think I could fix your problems in about two hrs max.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

My question would be why would it be no different than before bypassing such wiring?

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

LMAO if I could afford it man, I would. I'm so sick of the bullshit, of the car sitting. It's the nicest FC I've owned and I'm reluctant to let it go because it has everything I want except reliability.

The 'green' hose on your diagram is the one I was talking about being disconnected. I'm fairly sure when I got done with the swap I had all that connected so it's possible at some point today while changing the water thermo sender I yanked it off by accident. Dunno. Waiting for the car to be stone cold so I can crank it over and check it out.

Another thing I'm wondering about is that if the write-up is in error wiring wise, how come no one else has seemed to have these issues? There's really no reason for it. The car was having these issues when I got it, while it was still auto, and after I converted it...and now it's still having them after I put in a better engine. It's got to be wiring.. It's just tracking it down that's the problem. The good news is, you're here. The bad news is, I'm still a novice at all of this.

I actually do not know where the main starter relay or ignition relay are...or I might but I've just not known what they are.

HAILERS

IMHO the way things should have been done when putting in the manual transmission in place of the automatic:

I'd have left all the original wiring in place for the starting circuit. In order to make the original starting circuit work, I'd have found the four wire plug on the harness called E-14 in the attached jpg. I'd have jumpered b/t the B/R and B/W wires. That act would simulate the so called INHIBITOR switch that was part of the automatic transmission.

The starter would have worked now. There would be no clutch interlock switch, but frankly who cares? I bypassed my clutch interlock switch long ago on my manual car because I like to be able to reach in the window and turn the key to Start the engine without having to sit in the car and push a clutch pedal. Screw Jane Claybrook/Ralph Nader and the like.

The other two wires in that E-14 plug are for the reverse lights. I'd have run them to the reverse swtich on the manual transmission and all would have been taken care of. The B/Y of those two wires is power and the R/G goes to the reverse lights.

On your car I'd have left the Starter Cut Relay in place because you have factory Theft protection.

Another way to make your car work is to splice a wire to that NEW starter solenoid wire you made to start the car. That spliced in wire would go to the ECU's L/B wire on pin 3B. You'd just splice it to the L/B or get one of those Vampire outfits from R/S and attach it to the L/B wire. I forget the name of the "vampire" outfit right now.

I'm about 110% sure you've found why your car won't start when cold. Lack of a Start signal to 3B. IF you do splice a wire b/t your Start wire and the pin 3B, you could use a very thin wire, like a 22-26 gauge wire. There is no current to speak of on that wire at 2B of the ECU.. The smaller/thinner wire would be easier to route/handle than a 16-18ga wire.

HAILERS

The key to this would be to find the plug called E-14. In the jpg attached this four wire plug should be located b/t the starter and the oil filter area. Down lower than the oil filter though.

If found, you could jumper the B/W and the B/R wire in the plug. From what I see, if the original wires at the ignition switch were connected as they were originally, then the car would start when you put the key to Start.

OR you could find that plug, and splice a wire b/t the B/R wire in the E-14 plug, to the NEW starter solenoid wire you put in when you did this swap. That act should put power on pin 2B of the ECU each time you go to Start.

Are we having fun yet?

Second jpg is just FYI as to how the E-14 works with the wiring at the ECU and pin 3B.

I fear I've muddied the water with suggesting several different ways to overcome this problem. Oh well.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Alright, so I went out and tried it your way. No dice. Jumpeing those two wires in the four prong gang plug did nothing when I put the starter wiring back to stock. I do remember using the wiring diagram when I did the swap because I was sure landers was wrong. Using that setup which is the one you just described to me left something to be satisfied, bit I'm not sure what. It acted as if there was a remaining interlock. Regardless I tried it the second way you mentioned I *think*. I located the black wire with the blue stripe near the rest of the tranny wires. This will sound ghetto but I just kinda shoved the wires down the back of the female spade on my NEW trigger wire and shoved it on the solenoid. This, if it works, will not be my permanent setup. Just for testing purposes.

Anyways this is how the setup sits. I've bypassed the stock starter trigger with the new one I had made for the conversion. I took the black/blue (l/b?) wire that was hanging around down there and connected it to the new trigger wire. Now since I had started the car to get it onto the ramps ( which because of this mystery problem took me like twenty minutes of trying to start it then waiting a while before trying again) I'll have to wait for it to cool off enough before I can test the new setup.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Wow I'm sick of this bullshit LOL also, any funny looking words or random periods are because I made some posts from my iPhone and I type like a banshee.

Dltreezan

iTrader: (3)

I am having the same problem. It only takes me two minutes to start rather than 20, but the same nonetheless.

HAILERS

The only L/B wire in the starter circuit is shown near the ECU, not the starter itself, so I don't think its going to work for you.

Let's start again at the starter solenoid. The diagram shows the *trigger* wire is B/W there. It goes back to the E-14 plug that has four wires in it.

That's where things are confused on the dwg. See how that B/W wire goes to E-14 but it shows a B/R wire there also. So I have to ask "which is it?" B/W or B/R?

Anyway, the E-14 plug shows it's B/R and if you bypass the inhibitor switch that exists no more, you do that by jumpering b/t the B/R and the B/W in that E-14 plug.

So now the path goes to the Starter Cut Relay as a B/W wire.

If that relay is not being energized by the THEFT UNIT, then it's relaxed as shown in the jpg and the path now goes to the Black/Green wire that goes to the igniiton switch.

Here's one thing I'm getting at. If the THEFT UNIT sees Theft, it energizes the Starter Cut Relay and that relay pulls in so now there is no path from the B/W to the B/G wire. That's something for you to think about.

To prove the Theft Unit isn't pulling that relay in, you could bypass that relay. Pull it out. Then jumper b/t the B/G and the B/W wires and try to start the engine. The E-14 would also have to have it's B/R and B/W jumpered also.