First rebuild buy list. Need advice on huge selection of seals.
09-06-08, 03:39 PM
#1
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Thread Starter
First rebuild buy list. Need advice on huge selection of seals.
The engine is an 88TII it will run on microtech boosting a S5 BNR stage 4 turbo.
15-17 PSI is my goal. No Porting planned. Goal is to get about 20,000 more miles.
I plan on rebuilding my engine as soon as i buy a daily driver.
ANyways I want some advice on the huge variety of parts.
1. What do you guys think about SOLID corner seals compared to mazda OEM 2 peice croner seals.
2. Atkins, RA, OR Mazda OEm 2mm apex seals? I was going with atkins.
3. Vinton o-rings or MAZDA OEM?
4. Motor run great now(just smokes a bit) should I buy Metal-oring trey?
5. Best/cheapest place to get this parts. N gasket kit.
Also.
Any advice for a newby rebuilder. ANy tools you guys want to recoomend.
Thanks in advance.
15-17 PSI is my goal. No Porting planned. Goal is to get about 20,000 more miles.
I plan on rebuilding my engine as soon as i buy a daily driver.
ANyways I want some advice on the huge variety of parts.
1. What do you guys think about SOLID corner seals compared to mazda OEM 2 peice croner seals.
2. Atkins, RA, OR Mazda OEm 2mm apex seals? I was going with atkins.
3. Vinton o-rings or MAZDA OEM?
4. Motor run great now(just smokes a bit) should I buy Metal-oring trey?
5. Best/cheapest place to get this parts. N gasket kit.
Also.
Any advice for a newby rebuilder. ANy tools you guys want to recoomend.
Thanks in advance.
09-06-08, 03:54 PM
#2
i tried the new atkins desinged solid corner seals and my compression was really low,swapped them out for stock ones and i got 120 psi on both rotors,i ran RA super seals a couple of years ago and the motor ran fine,then i took it apart to go with a bigger port and the housings looked scored so i wont use them again,RA soft seal kit sucks and the viton oil o rings are a pain in the *** to install(they are bigger than OEM ones)Bottom line if i was you i will build the motor with OEM 2MM apex seals(japan2la have them in stock cheaper that anybody else)get a aftermarket soft seal kit(ebay or atkins have them a good price,around 110.00)OEM corner seals and the OEM oil control rings,with this combo you cant go bad at all.
09-06-08, 05:33 PM
#3
Your request for parts recommendations has been done to death in here, seek and ye shall find.
However, this one might not be so much and I recently rebuilt my first motor and wrestled with this question a lot while building.
-Watch as many rebuild videos as you can. I think Pineapple racing has some online for free viewing, there may be others. I bought the expensive Mazdatrix ones (I also watched whatever else I could find. Each collection will often have some little bits that the others don't), I wouldn't say it was quite worth the ~$100 I paid for them, but I wanted to be very careful as the '7 was my only car at the time and I couldn't afford to **** up.
-Research porting, at least know what it is, you're building a whole engine you might as well know your options. I'm a firm believer that the stock ports suck *** and can be reasonably improved even by just polishing away the roughness in the intake runners. If you are going to port anything on your own, buy some cheap ruined parts to practice on, try to do what you want to do on the final product, then purposely do it wrong to see where your limits are (like porting too far/deep/skipping on surfaces et cetera).
-Research clearancing your seals. Depending on what you want from the motor clearances can vary significantly, especially for high revving race motors. It's good to know, and even if you just want a stock type build you need to check your apex seals' clearance even if you're using new rotors, housings, and irons. Not checking would be like using water damaged birth control pills, you just don't know, and it's not worth taking the chance.
-Find a way to organize your seals. Each seal needs its own specific place in its rotor or else your motor most likely won't run as well or last as long. I'm sure for the most part the difference between organizing and not may only yield differences in longevity and power anywhere from 1-50%, it's tough to measure that difference to begin with so it's just best to do it right.
Now, I bought a lot of tools under the assumption that at some point in the next decade I would most likely use them all again. Not having many of the more expensive tools can mean you spend more time and or money having friends help out or paying someone to do the work, and if you ever need to do it again you're back at square one (buy the tools or hire out). I not only naturally distrust mechanics, I love doing this kind of stuff anyway.
Look out for used tools and parts, the more time you have to do your build the cheaper you can pull it off because you'll have time to look for and wait for deals to show up.
TOOLS:
-Engine lift. Annoying cost, but makes doing a swap by yourself possible.
-To compliment the lift, a load leveler can make things even easier and faster than with just a lift.
-Caliper. Make sure it's accurate and check the zero often.
-Honing stone(s). Use them to clearance your apex and side seals. I had one with a fine and a very fine side, I wish I'd had a rougher one because at the rate I was going on the stone it was taking HOURS to clearance my side seals, not fun and my wrists were killing me. I ended up using my bench grinder to get close, I would put the seals over their respective slot and mark with a sharpie. OEM side seals may start closer to the proper length than the Atkins ones I used so it may be less of an issue with those or others.
-Engine stand (with rotary block adapter, I think Atkins sells them for about $90). Another expensive option, but it's so much easier to move around. I was lucky though, my 750lb stand I think I only paid $40 for at Advance Auto Parts and it held up fine while I torqued the flywheel (which specs require like 300ftlbs).
-Torque wrench(es). You absolutely must torque your studs properly, buy one with an operating range that your torque specs will fall into the middle of. I feel that many torque wrenches probably aren't very accurate at the high and low ends of their ranges, I know I've had this issue with my torque wrenches. Blah blah blah about quality, but still, not everyone can afford $300 torque wrenches.
-2.125" socket with an appropriate breaker bar. This is for that 'oodles of fun' flywheel nut. Btw 2.125 is 2 and 1/8... IIRC that's also approximately 52mm. Search and you'll find exactly what size it is and what socket(s) will work.
-Cheater bar. Get a thick pipe that's between 2' and 4' long. This is to help with that flywheel nut. Getting it off may be easy if you have a fairly powerful impact gun, but personally I like to tighten it by hand. You may also want to beat the **** out of the floor if your parts arrive damaged or some bullshit
-Do your clutch at the same time unless it's in really good shape (ha!). And if you do, research and shop around for a clutch that will suit your power output and what you want from a clutch. I'm very glad I didn't buy a stock clutch (and I KNEW very well that I would burn one up fast, because I'm not just making 220+hp, I'll eventually be making more power, so it was an investment.
-Don't forget your brain. Never assume, do your research. I guarantee I'm forgetting some things here, too, I may return with more tips.
Oh heck, I could link you to my rebuild thread...
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/shotgun-rebuild-746247/
Might be a little more info in here:
http://******************/showthread.php?t=1596
^^^ ...it's on r-c-c
I need to update them, and do a compression check. I have at least 4k on the motor now...
However, this one might not be so much and I recently rebuilt my first motor and wrestled with this question a lot while building.
-Research porting, at least know what it is, you're building a whole engine you might as well know your options. I'm a firm believer that the stock ports suck *** and can be reasonably improved even by just polishing away the roughness in the intake runners. If you are going to port anything on your own, buy some cheap ruined parts to practice on, try to do what you want to do on the final product, then purposely do it wrong to see where your limits are (like porting too far/deep/skipping on surfaces et cetera).
-Research clearancing your seals. Depending on what you want from the motor clearances can vary significantly, especially for high revving race motors. It's good to know, and even if you just want a stock type build you need to check your apex seals' clearance even if you're using new rotors, housings, and irons. Not checking would be like using water damaged birth control pills, you just don't know, and it's not worth taking the chance.
-Find a way to organize your seals. Each seal needs its own specific place in its rotor or else your motor most likely won't run as well or last as long. I'm sure for the most part the difference between organizing and not may only yield differences in longevity and power anywhere from 1-50%, it's tough to measure that difference to begin with so it's just best to do it right.
Now, I bought a lot of tools under the assumption that at some point in the next decade I would most likely use them all again. Not having many of the more expensive tools can mean you spend more time and or money having friends help out or paying someone to do the work, and if you ever need to do it again you're back at square one (buy the tools or hire out). I not only naturally distrust mechanics, I love doing this kind of stuff anyway.
Look out for used tools and parts, the more time you have to do your build the cheaper you can pull it off because you'll have time to look for and wait for deals to show up.
TOOLS:
-Engine lift. Annoying cost, but makes doing a swap by yourself possible.
-To compliment the lift, a load leveler can make things even easier and faster than with just a lift.
-Caliper. Make sure it's accurate and check the zero often.
-Honing stone(s). Use them to clearance your apex and side seals. I had one with a fine and a very fine side, I wish I'd had a rougher one because at the rate I was going on the stone it was taking HOURS to clearance my side seals, not fun and my wrists were killing me. I ended up using my bench grinder to get close, I would put the seals over their respective slot and mark with a sharpie. OEM side seals may start closer to the proper length than the Atkins ones I used so it may be less of an issue with those or others.
-Engine stand (with rotary block adapter, I think Atkins sells them for about $90). Another expensive option, but it's so much easier to move around. I was lucky though, my 750lb stand I think I only paid $40 for at Advance Auto Parts and it held up fine while I torqued the flywheel (which specs require like 300ftlbs).
-Torque wrench(es). You absolutely must torque your studs properly, buy one with an operating range that your torque specs will fall into the middle of. I feel that many torque wrenches probably aren't very accurate at the high and low ends of their ranges, I know I've had this issue with my torque wrenches. Blah blah blah about quality, but still, not everyone can afford $300 torque wrenches.
-2.125" socket with an appropriate breaker bar. This is for that 'oodles of fun' flywheel nut. Btw 2.125 is 2 and 1/8... IIRC that's also approximately 52mm. Search and you'll find exactly what size it is and what socket(s) will work.
-Cheater bar. Get a thick pipe that's between 2' and 4' long. This is to help with that flywheel nut. Getting it off may be easy if you have a fairly powerful impact gun, but personally I like to tighten it by hand. You may also want to beat the **** out of the floor if your parts arrive damaged or some bullshit
-Do your clutch at the same time unless it's in really good shape (ha!). And if you do, research and shop around for a clutch that will suit your power output and what you want from a clutch. I'm very glad I didn't buy a stock clutch (and I KNEW very well that I would burn one up fast, because I'm not just making 220+hp, I'll eventually be making more power, so it was an investment.
-Don't forget your brain. Never assume, do your research. I guarantee I'm forgetting some things here, too, I may return with more tips.
Oh heck, I could link you to my rebuild thread...
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/shotgun-rebuild-746247/
Might be a little more info in here:
http://******************/showthread.php?t=1596
^^^ ...it's on r-c-c
I need to update them, and do a compression check. I have at least 4k on the motor now...
09-07-08, 05:00 AM
#4
Lives on the Forum
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/REBUILD/rparts.html
Although aftermarket apex seals have proliferated more so recently, I'd still stick to the Mazda OEM for street use.
Almost all the other options have a trade-off for a daily driver.
For race use, "ceramics" are an option if you can stomach the high price tag.
-Ted
Although aftermarket apex seals have proliferated more so recently, I'd still stick to the Mazda OEM for street use.
Almost all the other options have a trade-off for a daily driver.
For race use, "ceramics" are an option if you can stomach the high price tag.
-Ted
09-07-08, 01:01 PM
#6
GTUs WHORE!
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Speed of Life +1
Go with OEM FD conner seals and springs, they usually work out the best.Oil rings I would go with either but I believe the Vinton o-rings are slightly better,OEM is just as good.If your motor does smoke, yes, get new oil controll rings.Also don't forget brand new side seals and comp side seal springs.I would recommend cryo treating them with your level of boost just for longevity/reliability. As for your apex seals OEM is almost the best combination of strength and price for what your looking for. I have seen stock seals handle 450+ rwhp on proper tuning, just make sure you avoid knocking.
Go with OEM FD conner seals and springs, they usually work out the best.Oil rings I would go with either but I believe the Vinton o-rings are slightly better,OEM is just as good.If your motor does smoke, yes, get new oil controll rings.Also don't forget brand new side seals and comp side seal springs.I would recommend cryo treating them with your level of boost just for longevity/reliability. As for your apex seals OEM is almost the best combination of strength and price for what your looking for. I have seen stock seals handle 450+ rwhp on proper tuning, just make sure you avoid knocking.
Last edited by JunpoweR; 09-07-08 at 01:04 PM.
09-25-08, 06:56 PM
#7
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Thread Starter
I have never rebuilt an engine and was told to leave out the side seals since im a newb.
I recently did an compression test on my motor and turned out 83 on the front and 55 and the rear rotor. My rear rotor spark plug had signs of running really rich.
IM hoping its carbon lock.
WOuld you guys say side seals are a must on a low compression motor.?
ANyways I plan on buying all the tools to check specs on everything.
I recently did an compression test on my motor and turned out 83 on the front and 55 and the rear rotor. My rear rotor spark plug had signs of running really rich.
IM hoping its carbon lock.
WOuld you guys say side seals are a must on a low compression motor.?
ANyways I plan on buying all the tools to check specs on everything.
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09-26-08, 09:15 PM
#8
I have never rebuilt an engine and was told to leave out the side seals since im a newb.
I recently did an compression test on my motor and turned out 83 on the front and 55 and the rear rotor. My rear rotor spark plug had signs of running really rich.
IM hoping its carbon lock.
WOuld you guys say side seals are a must on a low compression motor.?
ANyways I plan on buying all the tools to check specs on everything.
I recently did an compression test on my motor and turned out 83 on the front and 55 and the rear rotor. My rear rotor spark plug had signs of running really rich.
IM hoping its carbon lock.
WOuld you guys say side seals are a must on a low compression motor.?
ANyways I plan on buying all the tools to check specs on everything.
Carbon lock means the motor is lodged so catastrophically with carbon that it will no longer turn over. Obviously, if you can perform a compression check, that is not your case (unless carbon lock can mean a seal is stuck with carbon, but I don't think I've ever seen it referred to that way).
09-26-08, 10:08 PM
#9
Copied from Ausrotary:
These are all apex seal placed on a high precision surface ground reference block to check retention of shape on the most important leading edge of the seal, you can see not all are created equal especially when you discount the HYPE of talking about single digit methanol fueled 2 stroke model aero plane "smoke show" drag wonders running as much oil as they do fuel to make inferior materials go the distance (all 400 meters of it, a few times lol!) ..... these are all long term road/circuit cars run at very high power/stress levels. ***LOOK FOR LIGHT BETWEEN BLOCK AND APEX SEAL, more light = more distorted seal and less power and much less compression! how much power are you throwing away??? by listening to toilet paper quality promises of the "best apex seal thats unbreakable LOL***
ALL seals run with totally new parts, same tune up and a minimum of 100:1 fuel to oil ratio
Highest Quality NRS 2 piece ceramic seal in circuit race application BP Turbo car 600bhp *as new!*
Summernats winner Capella with another FAILED BHP steel seal "wonder product" can smash it in a vice with hammer but that does not equal durability in an engine LOL ! sub 60 psi compression
Next is a Mazda OEM seal, last much longer than the *wonder hammer smashable in vice heap of dog turd* but still = EPIC FAIL in long term durability testing ! 60 psi compression!
Yet another failure of a 3rd "amazing" steel product, so have vice, CNC, hacksaw, wire cutter and glossy web page promise written on toilet paper = well you know what you wipe you're rear end with
Carbon seal = rooted ! taper wear, chewed ends, bad wear on leading edge = very low power... All serious N/A racers only use cermaic apex seals, much better wear than steel, same weight as carbon, they don't rape rotor housings, and last forever in N/A application in championship winning circuit race cars. ***remember Mazda factory won the Le Mans 24Hr after implementing modern ceramic technology, to get over problems with steel (of which they make arguably the best most durable of this type of OLD TECH.) and carbon which simply loose too much power too quickly from new, and were not strong enough for all situations***
These are all apex seal placed on a high precision surface ground reference block to check retention of shape on the most important leading edge of the seal, you can see not all are created equal especially when you discount the HYPE of talking about single digit methanol fueled 2 stroke model aero plane "smoke show" drag wonders running as much oil as they do fuel to make inferior materials go the distance (all 400 meters of it, a few times lol!) ..... these are all long term road/circuit cars run at very high power/stress levels. ***LOOK FOR LIGHT BETWEEN BLOCK AND APEX SEAL, more light = more distorted seal and less power and much less compression! how much power are you throwing away??? by listening to toilet paper quality promises of the "best apex seal thats unbreakable LOL***
ALL seals run with totally new parts, same tune up and a minimum of 100:1 fuel to oil ratio
Highest Quality NRS 2 piece ceramic seal in circuit race application BP Turbo car 600bhp *as new!*
Summernats winner Capella with another FAILED BHP steel seal "wonder product" can smash it in a vice with hammer but that does not equal durability in an engine LOL ! sub 60 psi compression
Next is a Mazda OEM seal, last much longer than the *wonder hammer smashable in vice heap of dog turd* but still = EPIC FAIL in long term durability testing ! 60 psi compression!
Yet another failure of a 3rd "amazing" steel product, so have vice, CNC, hacksaw, wire cutter and glossy web page promise written on toilet paper = well you know what you wipe you're rear end with
Carbon seal = rooted ! taper wear, chewed ends, bad wear on leading edge = very low power... All serious N/A racers only use cermaic apex seals, much better wear than steel, same weight as carbon, they don't rape rotor housings, and last forever in N/A application in championship winning circuit race cars. ***remember Mazda factory won the Le Mans 24Hr after implementing modern ceramic technology, to get over problems with steel (of which they make arguably the best most durable of this type of OLD TECH.) and carbon which simply loose too much power too quickly from new, and were not strong enough for all situations***
09-26-08, 10:45 PM
#10
Lives on the Forum
I guess it's nice to know what seals do on big power applications under extreme racing conditions, but I question how applicable is it to 99% of the owners in here for daily drivers...
Half of the seals mentioned are either not recommended for daily driving or affordable!
-Ted
Half of the seals mentioned are either not recommended for daily driving or affordable!
-Ted
10-03-08, 04:24 PM
#12
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Thread Starter
The engine is now out of the car and is sitting in my garage and is striped to short block form.
I bought plenty of brake cleaner. Im planning on taking it apart tomorrow and will bbegin cleaning.
Question: What should i be paying close attn to on the, bad, rear rotor that read 55psi compression? When i realized the motor wasnt the same, i still drove home for 15 mins. SHould i expect bad housing(s)?
I bought plenty of brake cleaner. Im planning on taking it apart tomorrow and will bbegin cleaning.
Question: What should i be paying close attn to on the, bad, rear rotor that read 55psi compression? When i realized the motor wasnt the same, i still drove home for 15 mins. SHould i expect bad housing(s)?
10-03-08, 06:01 PM
#13
I've detonated the living daylights out of my RA super seals and they survived (only 5k miles on them), and in fact I'm reusing them after carefully spec'ing them out (they have almost no wear on them). Are they the best for longevity? Are they kind to your rotor housings over the long haul? Probably not, but I'm not asking more than 10k out of them. I've got a borderline race motor (only sees race gas and 20psi) so my needs are not your needs. But face it, you're most likely going to lose your next motor from detonation anyway. Who really expects to put 40, 50, 80k on their 20 year old car? You'll sell it, overheat it, or detonate it long before that.
People scoff at the "unbreakable" seals (and who knows if they really are), but they really do stand up better to detonation. I'm living proof. And they don't separate and grenade your housing and turbo catastrophically. But there's no way they're going to have the wear characteristics of OEM stuff. It's a tradeoff like anything else. They work for me, but they may not work for you.
People scoff at the "unbreakable" seals (and who knows if they really are), but they really do stand up better to detonation. I'm living proof. And they don't separate and grenade your housing and turbo catastrophically. But there's no way they're going to have the wear characteristics of OEM stuff. It's a tradeoff like anything else. They work for me, but they may not work for you.
Last edited by arghx; 10-03-08 at 06:06 PM.
10-03-08, 06:11 PM
#14
Did the engine blow (detonate) or just "wear" from lots of miles? If it detonated then expect to find cracked apex seals, and scarred housings and/or rotors. If it was high miles it could have just built up so much carbon that the seals locked or wore off. Either way you will know once you open it up.
As for advice! Get lots of ziplock bags and a sharpy marker to label things. Based on my recent rebuild experience, you'll want to keep every single nut and bolt organized. I took apart 2 engines at the same time, so I have twice the parts all over the place. I didn't bother to keep anything organized, what a nightmare. I spent half my time looking up pictures of parts trying to figure out what bolt I needed to use.
Take your time, and good luck.
As for advice! Get lots of ziplock bags and a sharpy marker to label things. Based on my recent rebuild experience, you'll want to keep every single nut and bolt organized. I took apart 2 engines at the same time, so I have twice the parts all over the place. I didn't bother to keep anything organized, what a nightmare. I spent half my time looking up pictures of parts trying to figure out what bolt I needed to use.
Take your time, and good luck.
10-06-08, 10:19 PM
#15
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Thread Starter
I opened her up today. Some wierd results?
When I took ou the front main bolt there wasnt a spring nor thermal pellet.
I was expecting bad results for the back rotor n i did. They were 3 peice apex seals and there were 2 chipped seals ont he back rotor. F-ed my rear housing,rear plate, and rear rotor. The front rotor and housing are in good shape. Plenty of carbon build up.
SO now im looking to buy the needed parts. Rear plate,housing, rotor for s4 TII.
When I took ou the front main bolt there wasnt a spring nor thermal pellet.
I was expecting bad results for the back rotor n i did. They were 3 peice apex seals and there were 2 chipped seals ont he back rotor. F-ed my rear housing,rear plate, and rear rotor. The front rotor and housing are in good shape. Plenty of carbon build up.
SO now im looking to buy the needed parts. Rear plate,housing, rotor for s4 TII.
10-07-08, 12:43 PM
#17
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I don't think they can just.. burn away. I'm surprised it was running without corner seals.. WTF. Subscribed. I'm interested in what someone with more experience says.
10-07-08, 02:05 PM
#18
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He is talking about the crappy little rubber plugs that fit into the corner seal. They tend to just fall out. I dont think they are even considered necessary anymore.
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