Engine rebuild Vibration issues.
10-23-12, 09:23 AM
#26
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I was told if the rotor comes out the same weight dont matter if its 2mm or 3mm.
You Claim 2mm dont seal as well as 3mm? Now that sounds like BS to me.
And further, it is in Mazda's own SAE papers and the training manuals where they discuss in great detail the sealing differences between 3MM and 2MM seals. Read up on those papers and you'll see quite clearly why Mazda went to 2MM: because 3MM (and thicker) seals are inferior. For example, there is much more leakage between chambers as a 3MM seals sweeps over the spark plug holes. Mazda has long worked to seal the engines better, resulting in more power, better fuel economy, and tighter emissions. So regardless of whether it "sounds like BS" to you, it certainly is not BS to reality.
You claim lower compression and seal with 2mm. I don't agree
Let me give you a little bit of advice here. When someone offers you advice that you may not agree with, be a little less of a huge douchebag. You'll find life works a lot better if you treat people with common decency. You post asking for input, you get input you don't like, and then you reply with hostility. Seems to me that I don't really have time for people like you, so I guess I won't bother helping in the future. I've made my input, that the vibration is likely the counterweight and you'll need to open the engine to fix, exactly what you had asked. So my work here is done.
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 10-23-12 at 09:30 AM.
10-23-12, 09:28 AM
#27
no shame, it's your personal opinion and i believe you're taking it a bit overboard.
no i have never personally tested it but i have come close with running mixed sets of stock 3mm and oversize goopy 3mm seals on the same rotors and throughout the same engine with no ill result. running all 2mm on one rotor and all 3mm on the other i don't foresee any problem, but perhaps this is best left up for a mythbusters episode.
no i have never personally tested it but i have come close with running mixed sets of stock 3mm and oversize goopy 3mm seals on the same rotors and throughout the same engine with no ill result. running all 2mm on one rotor and all 3mm on the other i don't foresee any problem, but perhaps this is best left up for a mythbusters episode.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-23-12 at 09:32 AM.
10-23-12, 03:17 PM
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Good luck with the engine, hopefully the eventual "Rotaries suck!! V8 swap!!!" project will go a little smoother for ya.
10-23-12, 03:30 PM
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I have most always found that guys that make posts like the OP usually are the type of guy that sleeps in the back of the class until they turn 16 and then just drop out of school altogether.
Limited vocabulary with little to say.
Limited vocabulary with little to say.
10-23-12, 03:35 PM
#31
all i see is him being berated for mixing a 2mm rotor with a 3mm one in the engine, which i still believe would not cause a balance issue. it would however cause the 3mm housing to wear at a more rapid rate and cause chatter, wear and lower compression sooner.
10-23-12, 04:10 PM
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I think the last few replies haven't had a whole lot to do with his engine. While I honestly don't know what the real differences would be, I do know that arguing isn't going to get me anywhere.
Basically what I see is, people gave him crap for the weird engine setup and then he went on about how he already knows how to fix the problem. He was given some answers about the balancing and cw and what have you. Although I'm not really sure what he was looking for as per an answer- since apparently he already knew it had to do with cw and knows how to fix it.
I dunno, the hostile responses were a little unnecessary from both sides. He should have simply said, "I realize this isn't the best way, but it is the best I can do right now" while everyone else should have dropped it by that point and answered his questions (I guess, I didn't really see any) and moved along.
Basically what I see is, people gave him crap for the weird engine setup and then he went on about how he already knows how to fix the problem. He was given some answers about the balancing and cw and what have you. Although I'm not really sure what he was looking for as per an answer- since apparently he already knew it had to do with cw and knows how to fix it.
I dunno, the hostile responses were a little unnecessary from both sides. He should have simply said, "I realize this isn't the best way, but it is the best I can do right now" while everyone else should have dropped it by that point and answered his questions (I guess, I didn't really see any) and moved along.
10-23-12, 04:25 PM
#33
Can you tell me what series rotors did you use?pre 85 rotors are 3mm and weight different than post 86 that are 2mm,there is also a couple off weights and compression ratio depending on year and models.If the engine was built with 2 s5 rotors one milled to 3mm and one 2mm is fine you should not have any issues if the matching counterweights were installed........same thing if s4s were use but if the 3mm rotor is a old school or the 2mm is not the same series as the 3mm or vice versa the engine soon will die cause is not balance,if you are unsure of what series rotors were use how do you know that you have the correct weight installed?now if you do know it should be a easy fit.i seen a couple of engine running same series rotors one with 2mm and the other with 3mm and they ran fine.
10-23-12, 04:55 PM
#34
Can you tell me what series rotors did you use?pre 85 rotors are 3mm and weight different than post 86 that are 2mm,there is also a couple off weights and compression ratio depending on year and models.If the engine was built with 2 s5 rotors one milled to 3mm and one 2mm is fine you should not have any issues if the matching counterweights were installed........same thing if s4s were use but if the 3mm rotor is a old school or the 2mm is not the same series as the 3mm or vice versa the engine soon will die cause is not balance,if you are unsure of what series rotors were use how do you know that you have the correct weight installed?now if you do know it should be a easy fit.i seen a couple of engine running same series rotors one with 2mm and the other with 3mm and they ran fine.
10-25-12, 03:48 AM
#35
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And only doing research with the books that are given to you. No one knows how to do real research anymore.
10-25-12, 04:33 AM
#36
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Yikes, I was interested because I'm a fan of the "backyard mechanic" and I was rooting for you. However, after seeing this reply and also perusing some of your old threads I have changed my mind. As Aaron already mentioned, being a giant douche when you ask a question and receive a response you don't like will not get you very far. I'm surprised Ben is still posting in this thread trying to help you after some of your douchy posts. You're lucky he has patience.
Good luck with the engine, hopefully the eventual "Rotaries suck!! V8 swap!!!" project will go a little smoother for ya.
Good luck with the engine, hopefully the eventual "Rotaries suck!! V8 swap!!!" project will go a little smoother for ya.
If i had a mechanic work on my car since 2003 i would have spent like 20k dollars at this point .
Besides when you take your car to a mechanic that claims its ASE Certified and you find your windshield washer spray Nozzle Hooked up to your Vacuum lines on your engine, You know just reading a book and passing some college class isnt a sure bet you have a smart one working on your car for the Prices they charge.
Last edited by rx7_FREAKKK; 10-25-12 at 04:36 AM.
10-25-12, 08:37 AM
#37
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I'd like to know what shops gave this advice. Mainly because people are always asking for a shop recommendation and I'd like to add them to my list of shops that I'd never recommend. You can PM me privately if you don't want to name and shame in public.
Weight wise, no, it doesn't matter. Note that when I said "out of balance in several ways" I was not really referring to weight but in sealing and wear characteristics. I realize this was confusing since I then went on to talk about counterweights. Fact is, you're always going to have one side of the engine that seals a bit differently than the other side.
Well, it turns out that I've been doing this for a little while, and have a little bit of experience to go along with that.
And further, it is in Mazda's own SAE papers and the training manuals where they discuss in great detail the sealing differences between 3MM and 2MM seals. Read up on those papers and you'll see quite clearly why Mazda went to 2MM: because 3MM (and thicker) seals are inferior. For example, there is much more leakage between chambers as a 3MM seals sweeps over the spark plug holes. Mazda has long worked to seal the engines better, resulting in more power, better fuel economy, and tighter emissions. So regardless of whether it "sounds like BS" to you, it certainly is not BS to reality.
My post doesn't even contain the word "compression".
Let me give you a little bit of advice here. When someone offers you advice that you may not agree with, be a little less of a huge douchebag. You'll find life works a lot better if you treat people with common decency. You post asking for input, you get input you don't like, and then you reply with hostility. Seems to me that I don't really have time for people like you, so I guess I won't bother helping in the future. I've made my input, that the vibration is likely the counterweight and you'll need to open the engine to fix, exactly what you had asked. So my work here is done.
Weight wise, no, it doesn't matter. Note that when I said "out of balance in several ways" I was not really referring to weight but in sealing and wear characteristics. I realize this was confusing since I then went on to talk about counterweights. Fact is, you're always going to have one side of the engine that seals a bit differently than the other side.
Well, it turns out that I've been doing this for a little while, and have a little bit of experience to go along with that.
And further, it is in Mazda's own SAE papers and the training manuals where they discuss in great detail the sealing differences between 3MM and 2MM seals. Read up on those papers and you'll see quite clearly why Mazda went to 2MM: because 3MM (and thicker) seals are inferior. For example, there is much more leakage between chambers as a 3MM seals sweeps over the spark plug holes. Mazda has long worked to seal the engines better, resulting in more power, better fuel economy, and tighter emissions. So regardless of whether it "sounds like BS" to you, it certainly is not BS to reality.
My post doesn't even contain the word "compression".
Let me give you a little bit of advice here. When someone offers you advice that you may not agree with, be a little less of a huge douchebag. You'll find life works a lot better if you treat people with common decency. You post asking for input, you get input you don't like, and then you reply with hostility. Seems to me that I don't really have time for people like you, so I guess I won't bother helping in the future. I've made my input, that the vibration is likely the counterweight and you'll need to open the engine to fix, exactly what you had asked. So my work here is done.
Let me be Clear, For one im not going to say names or shops Because They would not do what i am doing. And i made the choice. NOT THEM. So im not going to PM you jack ****,
They would have no Need to do what i did as they have the correct parts to do the job Right.
I asked the question If they are the same weight it should not be an Issue. And i was told well you could get away with it. But its not something they would do. And a Rotary shop of any kind doing it unless the customer knew would be a nono.
My point is this, i seen rotary engines with 80-80-95- and 100-100-110 and had Smooth idle.
I hardly think 2mm and 3mm would be any further away from those numbers rotor to rotor. If a rotor fails to make enough Compression then it would start to Misfire. Thats all. Its not going to cause a Harmonic vibration IMO. ( that was what this thread was about)
You are also a Backyard mechanic are you not?
Sure you worked on cars and engines for a long time. And i'm sure you have good advice, Like all that have worked and wrenched for a long time.
And You can't Honestly tell me You trust and believe all stats as truth in a book or being correct all the time. I see info that is contradicting Before.
Is there a book that says You CAN'T Use 2mm and 3mm apex seals in the same motor? Because if it does and i change my weight and it runs great i will prove it wrong
Last edited by rx7_FREAKKK; 10-25-12 at 08:51 AM.
10-25-12, 08:50 AM
#38
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1. FSM specifies a torque value for the oil pump bolts which is very low, something like 10 - 12 inch pounds. In order to obtain proper torque, a sensitive torque wrench must be used. A wobble socket to clear the sprocket will not work and will alter the torque reading, and obviously, a box end wrench to reach under the sprocket is not a torque wrench.
2. Habit. I've just always done it that way. A little super glue on the key makes it easy.
My point is this, i seen rotary engines with 80-80-95- and 100-100-110 and had Smooth idle.
I hardly think 2mm and 3mm would be any further away from those numbers rotor to rotor. Like i said if a rotor fails to make enough Compression then it would start to Misfire. Thats all. Its not going to cause a Harmonic vibration IMO..
I hardly think 2mm and 3mm would be any further away from those numbers rotor to rotor. Like i said if a rotor fails to make enough Compression then it would start to Misfire. Thats all. Its not going to cause a Harmonic vibration IMO..
You are also a Backyard mechanic are you not?
And You can't Honestly tell me You trust and believe all stats as truthin a book or being correct all the time. I see info that is contradicting all the time.
Is there a book that says You CAN'T Use 2mm and 3mm apex seals in the same motor? Because if it does and i change my weight and it runs great i will prove it wrong
10-25-12, 01:46 PM
#39
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To clarify, there are two reasons I choose to install the oil pump chain like that even though it can be a bit annoying:
1. FSM specifies a torque value for the oil pump bolts which is very low, something like 10 - 12 inch pounds. In order to obtain proper torque, a sensitive torque wrench must be used. A wobble socket to clear the sprocket will not work and will alter the torque reading, and obviously, a box end wrench to reach under the sprocket is not a torque wrench.
2. Habit. I've just always done it that way. A little super glue on the key makes it easy.
That's disappointing, and a disservice to the rotary community because a shop that would advise building a mixed 2MM/3MM engine, regardless if the consequences are small or not, should not receive any recommendation.
Again, I didn't once mention "compression" in my reply.
No I am not, and we'll just leave it at that.
Stuff I read in Mazda SAE papers I tend to believe, as I have enough base knowledge to apply a critical thinking mental filter to what I'm reading. Stuff in the training manual is evaluated in a similar way. Shockingly, both book learnin' and experience are valuable and complimentary, not exclusive.
Is there a book that says you can't anally penetrate yourself with barbed wire while yodelling on the top of a cell phone tower? Probably not, but I doubt you do it anyway.
1. FSM specifies a torque value for the oil pump bolts which is very low, something like 10 - 12 inch pounds. In order to obtain proper torque, a sensitive torque wrench must be used. A wobble socket to clear the sprocket will not work and will alter the torque reading, and obviously, a box end wrench to reach under the sprocket is not a torque wrench.
2. Habit. I've just always done it that way. A little super glue on the key makes it easy.
That's disappointing, and a disservice to the rotary community because a shop that would advise building a mixed 2MM/3MM engine, regardless if the consequences are small or not, should not receive any recommendation.
Again, I didn't once mention "compression" in my reply.
No I am not, and we'll just leave it at that.
Stuff I read in Mazda SAE papers I tend to believe, as I have enough base knowledge to apply a critical thinking mental filter to what I'm reading. Stuff in the training manual is evaluated in a similar way. Shockingly, both book learnin' and experience are valuable and complimentary, not exclusive.
Is there a book that says you can't anally penetrate yourself with barbed wire while yodelling on the top of a cell phone tower? Probably not, but I doubt you do it anyway.
If air sealing is the problem with chamber to chamber is that not a compression issue?
Why would it respond slower? That's a load of Bull. For one the apex seals in both rotors are part of the same rotating assembly. So just because the weight of the apex seals are heavier means nothing.. Because both rotors are the same weight.
I calculated the difference with the weight of the 2mm vs 3mm seals into the full weight of the rotor. i understand a bit of weight is on the end of the rotor is a bit higher. But should not be noticed as its all moving at the same speed. So the Movement is balanced. The weight is the same at least.
The 3mm and 2mm apex seals touch roughly the same space. You would need a microscope to notice more apex seal touching the housings with 3mm seals.
The seals wear Down and they will touch the Same amount of space. the 2mm seals where used the 3mm were new. So im sure the touching surface of the apex seals cant be far off.
And like i said before. No shop told me i should do it. Its about money and time. Shops dont want engines coming back. If i make a mistake i cant blame a shop. only myself.
I asked what if questions putting them on the spot. But it was my choice. And since you are such a fine Rotary mechanic i guess no one will ever be as smart as you in this material reality thinking.
Besides it runs Fine and idles great. I have a harmonic issue . The rotor weight is very close to the center of spin. So i don't think its a rotor issue.
Like i said in my first post, I Think i installed the wrong Front counter weight. because i mistakenly put it in a box with spare parts. And i think i grabbed the wrong one. I'm not saying anyone should try this. And i'm sure few have.
But i did and that was My choice. and im sorry for Asking anything of any of you. It was a mistake for trying something new because some papers at mazda says otherwise. Just like school. READ AND REPEAT DON'T TRY NEW THINGS because shops might lose your business. Ill build a floor sweeper for 300 alex
Last edited by rx7_FREAKKK; 10-25-12 at 02:03 PM.
10-25-12, 01:57 PM
#40
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Haha! He probably would do it considering he is the first ive ever heard of mixing 2mm and 3mm seals in the same motor instead of forking over the money to just buy a matching set of rotors and seals.
I vote we let this thread die along with his motor.
Last edited by TheGoldenSB; 10-25-12 at 02:08 PM.
10-25-12, 03:16 PM
#42
WHAT? Ok you said 3mm apex seals are inferior, And don't seal well and they are thick and respond slower. Seal well as in Compression related??
If air sealing is the problem with chamber to chamber is that not a compression issue?
Why would it respond slower? That's a load of Bull. For one the apex seals in both rotors are part of the same rotating assembly. So just because the weight of the apex seals are heavier means nothing.. Because both rotors are the same weight.
I calculated the difference with the weight of the 2mm vs 3mm seals into the full weight of the rotor. i understand a bit of weight is on the end of the rotor is a bit higher. But should not be noticed as its all moving at the same speed. So the Movement is balanced. The weight is the same at least.
The 3mm and 2mm apex seals touch roughly the same space. You would need a microscope to notice more apex seal touching the housings with 3mm seals.
The seals wear Down and they will touch the Same amount of space. the 2mm seals where used the 3mm were new. So im sure the touching surface of the apex seals cant be far off.
If air sealing is the problem with chamber to chamber is that not a compression issue?
Why would it respond slower? That's a load of Bull. For one the apex seals in both rotors are part of the same rotating assembly. So just because the weight of the apex seals are heavier means nothing.. Because both rotors are the same weight.
I calculated the difference with the weight of the 2mm vs 3mm seals into the full weight of the rotor. i understand a bit of weight is on the end of the rotor is a bit higher. But should not be noticed as its all moving at the same speed. So the Movement is balanced. The weight is the same at least.
The 3mm and 2mm apex seals touch roughly the same space. You would need a microscope to notice more apex seal touching the housings with 3mm seals.
The seals wear Down and they will touch the Same amount of space. the 2mm seals where used the 3mm were new. So im sure the touching surface of the apex seals cant be far off.
I agree with Karack, I don't think you are going to experience too much trouble from using different sized apex seals in your application. It's incredibly unorthodox and I don't think anyone would (or should) recommend it, 2mm seals DO seal better than 3mm seals and in high HP applications the difference would be a concern, if this is just a street car I wouldn't worry about it as it will get you down the road. I've seen other crazy stuff that "worked" on budget builds before.
Besides it runs Fine and idles great. I have a harmonic issue . The rotor weight is very close to the center of spin. So i don't think its a rotor issue.
Like i said in my first post, I Think i installed the wrong Front counter weight. because i mistakenly put it in a box with spare parts. And i think i grabbed the wrong one. I'm not saying anyone should try this. And i'm sure few have.
But i did and that was My choice. and im sorry for Asking anything of any of you. It was a mistake for trying something new because some papers at mazda says otherwise. Just like school. READ AND REPEAT DON'T TRY NEW THINGS because shops might lose your business. Ill build a floor sweeper for 300 alex
10-25-12, 04:04 PM
#44
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Your deductions pale in comparison to actual data compiled by decades of engineers, builders, racers, and tuners. Some of them being the people commenting in this thread.
I agree with Karack, I don't think you are going to experience too much trouble from using different sized apex seals in your application. It's incredibly unorthodox and I don't think anyone would (or should) recommend it, 2mm seals DO seal better than 3mm seals and in high HP applications the difference would be a concern, if this is just a street car I wouldn't worry about it as it will get you down the road. I've seen other crazy stuff that "worked" on budget builds before.
If you think you know the issue, then attempt to fix it. I'm sure many would be interested in hearing the results for future reference.
You don't seem to be able to take either criticism or advice very well.
I agree with Karack, I don't think you are going to experience too much trouble from using different sized apex seals in your application. It's incredibly unorthodox and I don't think anyone would (or should) recommend it, 2mm seals DO seal better than 3mm seals and in high HP applications the difference would be a concern, if this is just a street car I wouldn't worry about it as it will get you down the road. I've seen other crazy stuff that "worked" on budget builds before.
If you think you know the issue, then attempt to fix it. I'm sure many would be interested in hearing the results for future reference.
You don't seem to be able to take either criticism or advice very well.
10-25-12, 04:04 PM
#45
As far as mixing parts to get the job done. yeah i've used s4 housing with an s5.
I was told the different locations of the spark plugs was going to mess with my tuning and give me trouble. I did it anyway. listen to everything. but don't take advice.
10-25-12, 04:59 PM
#46
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Being a rotary backyard, turn shop owner myself. if this guy ask'd me to build him a motor with 2mm/3mm mixed seals, i would tell him no, but then he decides to build it himself and then wants my advice how well it's going to work, you know what? build it, prove me wrong. oh wait, don't you have a vibration issue? point made.
As far as mixing parts to get the job done. yeah i've used s4 housing with an s5.
I was told the different locations of the spark plugs was going to mess with my tuning and give me trouble. I did it anyway. listen to everything. but don't take advice.
As far as mixing parts to get the job done. yeah i've used s4 housing with an s5.
I was told the different locations of the spark plugs was going to mess with my tuning and give me trouble. I did it anyway. listen to everything. but don't take advice.
10-25-12, 05:59 PM
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I will take photos also. Looks like it might be a day or so. Also the Vibration is the speed of the eshaft Not the rotation of the rotors. But that's a guess. i wont know for sure untill i change it
10-28-12, 10:35 AM
#50
this thread is turning into a bunch of retarded ****.
backyard mechanics, bad advice, maybe i will stop giving it.
was this whole path advisable? no. would it really cause this problem? no. was i one of the ones that recommended it? no. how many licks does it take to get to the center of a 3mm apex seal versus a 2mm? the world may never know.
i almost feel like building a mixed engine to shut you idiots up. pretty sure even joey said he saw it and saw NO vibration problems experienced.
backyard mechanics, bad advice, maybe i will stop giving it.
was this whole path advisable? no. would it really cause this problem? no. was i one of the ones that recommended it? no. how many licks does it take to get to the center of a 3mm apex seal versus a 2mm? the world may never know.
i almost feel like building a mixed engine to shut you idiots up. pretty sure even joey said he saw it and saw NO vibration problems experienced.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-28-12 at 10:41 AM.