Engine Cooling 201
05-25-12, 02:14 PM
#1
Engine Cooling 201
So i need some help, first off lets start with the setup:-
13b, S5 Intake manifolds with a BNR stage 4 turbo
44mm external waste gate
3" exhaust
FMIC greddy kit vspl
Greddy RS BOV
550/1680 injectors
Koyo Radiator w/ Taurus Electic fan on HIGH
suppra TT fuel pump
Haltech E6X
Now given I have this big front mount I am blocking all the air flow to my Rad and oil cooler (it covers the entire opening) and the temps are HIGH on cusise around 205 at 28deg. outside
To fix this I bought a Re-amemiya reverse vent scoop for the TII at paint as we speak.
Also i want to make a new undertray that scoops air from under the car and pushes it behind the FMIC into the rad and oil cooler.
Now do you think the reverse vent scoop will be sufficient?
If not any ideas on the design of this under tray? this high pressure and low pressure **** is confusing me
Hybrid
13b, S5 Intake manifolds with a BNR stage 4 turbo
44mm external waste gate
3" exhaust
FMIC greddy kit vspl
Greddy RS BOV
550/1680 injectors
Koyo Radiator w/ Taurus Electic fan on HIGH
suppra TT fuel pump
Haltech E6X
Now given I have this big front mount I am blocking all the air flow to my Rad and oil cooler (it covers the entire opening) and the temps are HIGH on cusise around 205 at 28deg. outside
To fix this I bought a Re-amemiya reverse vent scoop for the TII at paint as we speak.
Also i want to make a new undertray that scoops air from under the car and pushes it behind the FMIC into the rad and oil cooler.
Now do you think the reverse vent scoop will be sufficient?
If not any ideas on the design of this under tray? this high pressure and low pressure **** is confusing me
Hybrid
05-25-12, 02:32 PM
#2
Rev vent scoop wont do much. Certainly not at low speeds IMO. A fully vented GT style hood might help some but only as much as your fan can pull.
Are you running a stock clutch fan or some kind of E-fan?
Honestly your pissing into the wind with a front mound on an FC. You can improve it some with things like improving the inlet and outlet ducting, hood openings, scooping additional air via bigger bumper openings, air dams/scoops etc, but it's never going to be great. Don't go anywhere near a road course if you like your motor. It's hard to avoid the fact that you have a huge obstruction in front of your oil/water coolers..
Undertray scoop might help but it will of course scoop more than just air...
The ultimate solution? V-mount...
Are you running a stock clutch fan or some kind of E-fan?
Honestly your pissing into the wind with a front mound on an FC. You can improve it some with things like improving the inlet and outlet ducting, hood openings, scooping additional air via bigger bumper openings, air dams/scoops etc, but it's never going to be great. Don't go anywhere near a road course if you like your motor. It's hard to avoid the fact that you have a huge obstruction in front of your oil/water coolers..
Undertray scoop might help but it will of course scoop more than just air...
The ultimate solution? V-mount...
05-25-12, 02:46 PM
#4
Rev vent scoop wont do much. Certainly not at low speeds IMO. A fully vented GT style hood might help some but only as much as your fan can pull.
Are you running a stock clutch fan or some kind of E-fan?
Honestly your pissing into the wind with a front mound on an FC. You can improve it some with things like improving the inlet and outlet ducting, hood openings, scooping additional air via bigger bumper openings, air dams/scoops etc, but it's never going to be great. Don't go anywhere near a road course if you like your motor. It's hard to avoid the fact that you have a huge obstruction in front of your oil/water coolers..
Undertray scoop might help but it will of course scoop more than just air...
The ultimate solution? V-mount...
Are you running a stock clutch fan or some kind of E-fan?
Honestly your pissing into the wind with a front mound on an FC. You can improve it some with things like improving the inlet and outlet ducting, hood openings, scooping additional air via bigger bumper openings, air dams/scoops etc, but it's never going to be great. Don't go anywhere near a road course if you like your motor. It's hard to avoid the fact that you have a huge obstruction in front of your oil/water coolers..
Undertray scoop might help but it will of course scoop more than just air...
The ultimate solution? V-mount...
I got a taurus 2 Speed fan on High
radiator area alll sealed up to trap all the air coming in and force it into the rad
05-25-12, 02:56 PM
#6
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I both agree and disagree with RockLobster. Sure, if you use a greedy intercooler hanging up front then yeah, your screwed from the get go. That should be obvious from the start.
First, do you really need that big of an intercooler, how efficient is your core? Second, how much thought did you put into cooling"everything".
If one would put as much time into designing a front mount system as a Vmount system one can get as good of performance without adding air under your car when your at speed. For me it boils down to not wanting to chop the hell out of a perfectly good car.
It involves making an IC that fits the space, not making the space fit the IC. There is MORE than enough air to cool everything, it just all needs a fair shake.
First, do you really need that big of an intercooler, how efficient is your core? Second, how much thought did you put into cooling"everything".
If one would put as much time into designing a front mount system as a Vmount system one can get as good of performance without adding air under your car when your at speed. For me it boils down to not wanting to chop the hell out of a perfectly good car.
It involves making an IC that fits the space, not making the space fit the IC. There is MORE than enough air to cool everything, it just all needs a fair shake.
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05-25-12, 11:30 PM
#8
Rotary extreme has a v-mount kit that requires no cutting.
I made a v-mount and the only cutting I had to do was the rad support and that was only because I used an evo ic core. Had I bought a slightly smaller core out could have easily been accomplished w/o any cutting.
I made a v-mount and the only cutting I had to do was the rad support and that was only because I used an evo ic core. Had I bought a slightly smaller core out could have easily been accomplished w/o any cutting.
05-26-12, 10:58 AM
#10
205F is definitely not high. Thats pretty much norm.
As with arghx said, if you are getting 220f+ then you have a problem. Mind you, stock FDs hit 210f regularly. Nothing against with wanting to make it run cooler, everybody wants to, the temperature you are getting is normal.
Last summer I was hitting 220f+ in 85f+ weather while cruising at 75mph or so and at the track. My big *** intercooler was blocking most of the air to my radiator. made some air channels to divert air to the rad and oil cooler, and now it will barely hit 210F in the same weather while being pushed hard.
As with arghx said, if you are getting 220f+ then you have a problem. Mind you, stock FDs hit 210f regularly. Nothing against with wanting to make it run cooler, everybody wants to, the temperature you are getting is normal.
Last summer I was hitting 220f+ in 85f+ weather while cruising at 75mph or so and at the track. My big *** intercooler was blocking most of the air to my radiator. made some air channels to divert air to the rad and oil cooler, and now it will barely hit 210F in the same weather while being pushed hard.
05-28-12, 03:30 AM
#12
Before I ducted my V-mount temps would creep up to 217 (before I shut it down) if it sat still for any length of time. Now that ducting is in place the highest I've seen is 198 (this is in 90+ ambient temps). What a difference 2 pieces of corrugated plastic make!
I really see no reason why temps should be above 200-205 in Toronto unless you have a/c and are pushing the car hard. If your ducting is effective the harder you push it (thus the faster you go) the better it should work.
I really see no reason why temps should be above 200-205 in Toronto unless you have a/c and are pushing the car hard. If your ducting is effective the harder you push it (thus the faster you go) the better it should work.
05-28-12, 07:21 AM
#13
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Which thermostat?
The car's thermostat is a bypass type. If you remove it then you need to tap and plug the hole below it with a 1/2" NPT or equivalent plug, otherwise the cooling system doesn't work properly. A street car should not run without a thermostat anyway, so if you removed it, then put it back in.
An electric fan's thermostat allows it to operate during the proper conditions. Fans actually start to restrict flow through the radiator at higher vehicle speeds. A fan usually starts to hinder cooling around 30 mph vehicle speed.
http://www.racingbeat.com/mazda/perf...r-cooling.html
The car's thermostat is a bypass type. If you remove it then you need to tap and plug the hole below it with a 1/2" NPT or equivalent plug, otherwise the cooling system doesn't work properly. A street car should not run without a thermostat anyway, so if you removed it, then put it back in.
An electric fan's thermostat allows it to operate during the proper conditions. Fans actually start to restrict flow through the radiator at higher vehicle speeds. A fan usually starts to hinder cooling around 30 mph vehicle speed.
http://www.racingbeat.com/mazda/perf...r-cooling.html
05-28-12, 12:05 PM
#14
the only thing that woudlnt work properlly is my heat . the water pump does its job to move the coolant around the motor . so ive ran other cars with no tstat for summer. i guess my old one was bad or a orginal one . its summer i just rebuilt it last thing i need is overheating problems with my front mount . i have a aluminum rad but its cracked somewere so i threw the stock one back on with nissan quest fan . if i leave the fan on at low speed the engine stays at the c mark . im putting a switch for it this week cause thats too cold for me even tho i havnnt driven the car on the streets yet
05-28-12, 04:40 PM
#17
Before I ducted my V-mount temps would creep up to 217 (before I shut it down) if it sat still for any length of time. Now that ducting is in place the highest I've seen is 198 (this is in 90+ ambient temps). What a difference 2 pieces of corrugated plastic make!
I really see no reason why temps should be above 200-205 in Toronto unless you have a/c and are pushing the car hard. If your ducting is effective the harder you push it (thus the faster you go) the better it should work.
I really see no reason why temps should be above 200-205 in Toronto unless you have a/c and are pushing the car hard. If your ducting is effective the harder you push it (thus the faster you go) the better it should work.
hybrid
05-30-12, 06:01 PM
#18
Water seals begin to degrade at about 220...food for thought.
I blew a motor just from putting in a 2nd oil cooler and being way to nonchalant about the ducting. Non-turbo....with an oversize all aluminum rad...temps flirted with 225 up behind other cars and eventually the water seals on the middle iron let go...along with the middle iron itself.
Ducting makes a huge difference, if you can divert some virgin air to you radiator and oil cooler you will make huge headway...
I changed nothing but the ducting and re-sized the pullys after my blown motor and i havnt even seen temps past 190, water or oil even in traffic.
I blew a motor just from putting in a 2nd oil cooler and being way to nonchalant about the ducting. Non-turbo....with an oversize all aluminum rad...temps flirted with 225 up behind other cars and eventually the water seals on the middle iron let go...along with the middle iron itself.
Ducting makes a huge difference, if you can divert some virgin air to you radiator and oil cooler you will make huge headway...
I changed nothing but the ducting and re-sized the pullys after my blown motor and i havnt even seen temps past 190, water or oil even in traffic.
05-31-12, 07:17 AM
#20
you need better ducting... i discovered a lot of air gets around the radiator from the bottom, i modified the undertray so that i could attach it to the bottom of the radiator with zipties, and that cured my overheating problems. also take some aluminum duct tape and seal up any other areas air can escape around the radiator
05-31-12, 09:30 AM
#21
Really this is only for a race application. With the stock pullys the water pump on an S5 will cavitate because you are shifting above 8k RPM every shift. We shift at 8400-8500. The pump is spinning too fast. No we use a stock alt pully but underdrive pullys for the e-shaft and water pump. It does not overheat at idle. But i wouldnt recommend it for a street car in any case, certianly not if you still have the AC system.
05-31-12, 09:54 AM
#22
I blew a motor just from putting in a 2nd oil cooler and being way to nonchalant about the ducting. Non-turbo....with an oversize all aluminum rad...temps flirted with 225 up behind other cars and eventually the water seals on the middle iron let go...along with the middle iron itself.
Really this is only for a race application. With the stock pullys the water pump on an S5 will cavitate because you are shifting above 8k RPM every shift. We shift at 8400-8500. The pump is spinning too fast. No we use a stock alt pully but underdrive pullys for the e-shaft and water pump. It does not overheat at idle. But i wouldnt recommend it for a street car in any case, certianly not if you still have the AC system.
That makes the first post- where you say the seals blew due to poor ducting and a second cooler- sort of misleading, since the pulleys (and possible high RPM cavitation) probably played a large part in the engine failure.
05-31-12, 10:29 AM
#25
Aye but the rub...is that we ran numerous races prior to that with the stock pullys single stock oil cooler and stock ducting with the larger radiator without a water cooling problem. Never over 205 water temps even in traffic. Usually under 200. We had high oil temps so I added the 2nd oil cooler, had to cut some of the stock ducting for the fittings and didnt think it would be an issue. I was wrong...water seal failure. The pullys were changed at the same time i completly re-engineered all the ducting, so, it of course had something to do with it but i cant stress enough how important ducting is.