dennis blackstone

my buddy had a wolf 3d installed it has an anti flood feature witch works great but all i can say buy brand knew injectors dont get then cleaned it worsens the problem, im sorry about popping up with this but 2 other buddys of mine had the same flooding issue we all bought brand knew injectors and the problem was solved ,i was like every one else trying to get around the issue by making switches and all that crap i bought brand knew injectors problem solved ....................$400 is alot of money but no more enbarresment

AUGieDogie

iTrader: (4)

no

locketine

first off, it's new, not knew, which is paste tense of know. I would like to know if you tried cleaning ur injectors first via a professional? it's only 50 dollars for all four injectors and seems like it would do the same thing as buying new ones.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Here's one: I removed my ACV and replaced it with a block off plate. Ever since the car has been very reluctant to start without me flooring it. There may be a solution to this, I haven't put any effort into it yet.

Syonyk

That's why you don't mention it, you just use it.

The failsafe way to start your car with a fuel cut switch is to rev the engine to ~3k or so (in neutral), kill the fuel pump, and wait for the engine to stop turning. Turn the car off, get out. When you get back in, turn it on, crank, and hit the fuel pump switch. It should start right up. And, when done as normal startup procedures, it won't look terribly odd to anyone. If the girl is interested in what you're doing, then you've got a conversation topic. *shrug* I get more complaints about the smell than anything else.

Back on topic, aren't fuel injectors tested for leak rates when they're cleaned? If it's still flooding the engine, that would seem to indicate that the cleaned injector was still leaking after shutdown, which I'd think would be something that should be tested when benchmarking injectors.

-=Russ=-

dennis blackstone

Now we getting some solutions that's another good one snrub we are getting closer to this misrable problem maybe it could be something to do with air with the acv ,mine was injectors

NZConvertible

This is one of the two main reasons for flooding problems. Don't **** around with home remedy injector cleaning. Nothing you can do at home will come close to a professional job.

Vac leaks cause lean mixtures. Lean mixtures don't cause flooding.

A faulty or disconnected FRP will increase fuel pressure, but manifold vacuum is so low during cranking that the FPR makes very little difference to fuel pressure. It's extremely unlikely a faulty FPR would contribute to flooding.

This is the other main reasons for flooding problem. A rebuild is the only cure.

There's nothing to debate. The O2 sensor is not used during cranking, or any other time other than constant-speed, low-load cruising. Not an issue here.

If the ECU thinks the engine is colder than it really is, it will inject too much fuel. This would only be a problem with hot starts. The thermosensor is easily tested by measuring it's resistance and comparing the figures to those in the FSM.

Not really sure how unless someone messed with the calibration (i.e. resetting the spring tension).

To reiterate, low compression and leaky injectors are the two most common causes of flooding by far. IMO other less likely causes suggested are not really a problem on their own but will further increase the likelyhood of flooding if compression is getting low and/or the injectors leak. Both low compression and leaky injectors will have other negative effects besides flooding (low power, poor mileage, poor drivability) which band-aid fixes like fuel pump switches and pressure bleeds don't do squat for.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. How is it you think cleaning them makes it worse? And how is it that flooding (and other) problems are so often solved by having them cleaned? I know that after mine were cleaned they were flow- and leak-tested and performed as new.

Nope, the air sucked through the BAC valve is metered by the AFM. Less air simply means less fuel, so mixtures are unaffected.

dennis blackstone

the reason it made it worse was because i never had a flooding issue i had them cleaned when i changed a hose under the plenum then when i installed the cleaned injectors i flooded every time like a bitch i bought brand knew ones floding stopped immediatly so dont tell me kid ive seen plenty of rx7s where they have fooding they cleen the injectors the problem is still there or has gotten worse and all i say buy knew ones problem solved so that is not dumb that has solved the problem if the the problem is solved dont get it twisted

HAILERS

**********Nope, the air sucked through the BAC valve is metered by the AFM. Less air simply means less fuel, so mixtures are unaffected**************

Ain't so. Anytime you hold the key to START, the BAC goes fully open and does not modulate/vibrate/cycle. It holds at wide open. Been there, seen that and read the manual. I'm stick'in with that story til the end.

Syonyk

Also, as I mentioned in the thread I created, a possibility (but slim) is that of the charcoal canister purge valve being stuck open, or some other path for fuel vapors from the fuel tank to get into the intake system when the engine is sitting. When I ran the fuel tank vent on the firewall into the intake snorkel (figured it was as good a place as any for it), I flooded the next two times I tried to start. Route it down to vent under the car, no problems. So, the gas tank venting into the intake with the engine off can provide enough fuel to make things too rich to start (and then subsequently flood).

-=Russ=-

NZConvertible

Then you're just plain unlucky. The only way that could happen is if either you or the company who cleaned them stuffed something up big time. Leaky injectors are caused by dirt or build-up stopping the injector pintle from sealing properly. You should've sent them back to be retested before you bought new injectors.

Ha, that's the first time I've been called "kid" in quite a while...

Then those people obviously don't post on RX-7 forums because I've never seen anyone post that cleaned injectors made the problem worse. Some people don't get any improvement because the real problem is low compression, but I have seen many people post that it has fixed the problem. Several have even posted in this tread, but I don't see anyone backing up your experience with theirs.

You need to understand that your experience is not typical. Injectors are quite durable, and in most cases professional cleaning will return then to near-new performance. Telling people to go out and blow hundreds of dollars replacing perfectly serviceable injectors is just bad advice. Sure it will fix the problem (assuming they actually are the cause), but there's a very high chance that having them cleaned would achieve the same thing for a lot less money.

BTW, a bit of punctuation would make you posts a lot easier to read. They look like they were written by a kid...


You're right of course, but I think you misunderstood what I said. The BAC valve has the same effect as the throttle. It affects airflow, not mixtures. Not having one isn't going to cause flooding.

Blowtus

There's nothing wrong with serviced / cleaned / refurbished injectors. A decent company can test them for proper operation. Telling people to buy new ones is silly, imho.

HAILERS

I guess I'm more or less confused. At Start I thought/think the fuel amount is more or less already set by the ECU and the air temp sensors, pressure sensor BUT the position of the vane is not a big player??? and if you bypass air around the throttle body (a wideopen BAC), that would make the mixture leaner than if you did not have a BAC. Or is this crooked thinking?

I'm assuming the mixture is more or less SET for the start cycle vs a running car where the vane on the afm is pulled back and giving more of an output than sitting more or less at rest at start (that's a bit weak since I know the vane moves aft during start).


I figure the same could be said about the air that is injected into the intake stroke thru the oil injectors and the fuel injector bleed air nipple which get removed on quite a few cars around here. If those sources are blocked off, then there will be a richer fuel mixture than if they were there during starting.

And as a side note: I saw on NWI that NZ has a PARROT that lives in the upper mountains in the SNOW and thrives there. A parrot in the mountain snow? Odd country down there.

NZConvertible

You make a good point, but I have a slightly different take on this. I don't think that the amount of fuel injected during cranking is fixed, but I'm sure a completely separate fuel map is used. I don't think it would be possible to ignore the AFM entirely and inject a fixed amount of fuel, because that ignores the fact that you might be holding the throttle open at the same time. If the amount of fuel injected during cranking was fixed and the throttle was opened, this would result in a very lean mixture and the engine probably wouldn't start. When the EFI system was being designed they would've had to take into account all possibilities, including someone stabbing at the gas pedal while cranking. So the cranking mixture will be from a specific fuel map, but to get a certain mixture, you have know the airflow.

I'm impressed by your knowledge of NZ ornithology. I had no idea we had snow parrots.

babyd011_

I hear a good way to turn it over (i havnt been flooded yet, so havnt tested it) is to pull the injector fuse and turn it over, it will run breifly without the fuse, go back, put it in and then your ready to go.... and suppose common sense would say if this works, maybe there is a problem with the injector??? ...

NZConvertible

No, it won't run at all since pulling the EGI fuse disables the fuel pump and the injectors and the igntion coils. You're getting confused with the correct unflooding procedure, which is to disable the fuel flow and crank the engine over with the throttle open to clear out excess fuel.

tawd

Yeah, I have been pulling the fuel pump relay under the dash if mine flooded out... But mine no longer has a flooding problem thank god... That was getting annoying!

JamesWade2002

If you are refering to me:
*my car only flooded when the ECU temp sensor was bad.
*having my injectors cleaned did NOT fix the problem
*I have 115 lbs of compression, I would not think of that as "almost low"
*After replacing the thermo sensor, the car never flooded or hickuped again. This was done after every other problem or scenerio had been worked out.
Didn't mean to stick it in, but I saw a hole.

Icemark

Nope, someone else...

But either way, half the time cleaning 15 year old injectors is a waste of money, as they are too far worn out to work well even if clean.

And I said that the member in question replaced his injectors...You didn't... so what would make you think that I was talking the least bit about you???

dennis blackstone

What you must understand is that these cars are very old, if I tell some one get them cleaned in each case it made the problem worse but I would rather a person start fresh with brand knew injectors in these old cars because fuel is inportant ,you can bash me all day ,but every time the problem is resolved even with low compresion, I resect your argument but facts are facts ,sorry I got a ged

NZConvertible

Exactly how many times has this happened to you? I still find it very hard to believe that reinstalling professionally cleaned injectors has made the problem worse. Half the point of having it done professionally is the testing that's done afterwards. If the injectors don't pass the minimum requirements then they should not be reinstalled. If they do than they cannot be blamed for further problems. There are many things you can stuff up when installing injectors...

And so far your posts have been a little low on facts. Like a technical explanation for why you think professionally cleaned injectors can make flooding worse, or why so few people seem to share your experiences. This forum is full of people who've had nothing but positive results from having this done, myself included. My "very old" injectors came back from the diesel service company meeting the factory flow spec exactly and with zero leakage. I didn't have flooding problems at the time, but the there was a small but noticeable improvement in overall running.

It's not about bashing you; it's about stopping clearly misleading info being posting, including your assertion that having your injectors professionally cleaned makes flooding worse.

piscorpio

I had flooding issues, and had my injectors sent out for professional cleaning, re-balancing, etc. (RC Engineering). They did turn out to be leaky, and flowing a bit less than optimal when RC tested them. I got them back, popped them in, and my flooding issues were solved! However, about a month later, it seems to be having hot start issues. I will have to get a compression test done, then I can see whether the blame may be placed on the injectors once again, or perhaps something else.

Seems to me, if someone is having flooding issues, the first step should be a compression test. I wish I had done it sooner, especially if it (low compression) turns out to be the culprit. Even if it isn't the problem, its got to be nice to know the state of your engine's health.

harley71105

Perhaps a fuel cut switch should have been designed in on the original FC3's. The rotary engine and all of its "nuances" has all sorts of selonoids, dashpots, sensors, etc. as part of the "permanent" band aid solutions. Better yet ANOTHER SENSOR that senses a lot of fuel in the engine then goes into an automatic fuel shut off mode during cranking to clear the fuel. A band aid solution IN SOME CASES could be better described as a latent solution that should have been designed for the engine IN THE FIRST PLACE, especially a fuel cut switch. There is an automatic fuel cut in case of engine shutdown as a safety feature. For the older cars that did not have that would an aftermarket fix be classified as a BAND AID or a necessary redesign ?
Its difficult to draw a hard line on most any issue.
If you can in fax fix a problem in this way, or at least continue to operate until you have the time or funds to treat the real issue, then you are an above average enthusiast and in a lot of cases may have invented a necessary redesign.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

to be exact on s5s there is a fuel cut off switch on them stock , while cranking hold down the accelerator all the way to the floor and it cuts the fuel from the engine, now it wont kill the fuel pump you go to bed for you but its oneway they help to solve flooding issues.

breckboarder55

i think this needs to ba a sticky