Roarke

First I had a problem where the car would randomly not start. Someone said it might be the battery, so I pulled the new battery from my truck and tried it which seemed to have cured my problem.

UNTIL last Saturday night when I was driving along at around 30mph, about two blocks from a cold start when I lost all engine power and my tach died. While I was still moving I tried starting it with the transmission twice, to no avail. Since then it hasn't been able to start at all. The starter turns the engine just fine. the leading plugs have spark, the trailing plugs don't have spark (thus no tachometer), I have fuel to the fuel inlet, I have voltage to the fuel pump, I have fuel in my secondary rail. I got new spark plugs cause mine looked a little worn. My plug wires are less than 2 months old and work. The CAS ohmed out good. The trailing coil ohms out within spec. I recently refreshed the grounds in the car including adding the one on Aaron Cakes website. I pulled plugs and got nice, loud and clear psh, psh, psh from both front and rear rotor.

The only other symptom I can offer is that none of my dash lights turn on when I turn the key to run. They did before this happened though.



Seems to me a car needs air, fuel, and spark to run. Having all those and it doesn't run. ECU?
Anyone have any advice?
I'm stumped.

satch

iTrader: (1)

The car does not need the trailing coil to start as it can rely solely on the leading coil. Perhaps one of your problems relates to a flooded engine. You might want to disable the fuel pump and try some starter fluid. Also, the coil/igniters get their ground from mating w/the fender so either clean the mating surface or make sure the coil is properly bolted to the fender as required. There are two B/Y wires at this coil so confirm you get 12 volts w/key to on and also take the voltage readings of the other four wires in the second plug w/key to on.

Roarke

I had the plugs out for the compression test, no fuel came out. I have a fuel cut switch and ive been trying not to have the pump on too long. If the car was flooded wouldnt there be some fuel come out or some wet plugs or something? Im not sure I've never had a flooded car.

Ill try starter fluid anyway.
The ground connections are good. The wires get voltage to both of them.

satch

iTrader: (1)

Make sure the fuel cut switch is working properly to begin with. And as far as fuel coming out of the plug holes during a compression test it should not if you pulled the EGI fuse to disable spark and fuel injection in order to conduct the test as you wouldn't want either when doing so. If the EGI fuse was not pulled then you would have both spark and fuel injection during the test. Did you pull the fuse or not before you tested for compression. And do you happen to have a spare CAS?

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I'd say your engine is fine and you have a harness problem.

Roarke

I did pull the egi fuse for the compression test.
I do have a spare cas.

As for my switch I tested volts to the switch, and then pulled the fuel inlet to the engine and turned the pump on which sprayed fuel all over my rag and the floor.

satch

iTrader: (1)

You can unplug the CAS and plug in the spare. W/key to on you will need to spin the CAS gear and you should hear the primary injectors clicking. You would unplug the coils because they would also make noise and perhaps drown out the sound of the injector clicks.

Roarke

Ok so it fires with starting fluid, plugging in another cas and turning it did nothing. No sound at all. Didnt even unplug my wires. Tried both directions.
So fuel injectors and trailing spark dont work. Both are controlled via ecu correct?
I think my ecu is okay. I had it out and the board looked pristine, none of the connections looked bad.
I have another one. Maybe ill try swapping it. What next?

Roarke

Oh and from earlier I cleaned up the trailing coil grounding surface, the ground under it, and it has 12v on the power wires. Sorry I forgot to write it. The mobile app doesnt let me read and write at the same time.

satch

iTrader: (1)

Did you turn the key to on before spinning the connected spare CAS?

Roarke

Yeah, key was on. Inside I heard the door buzzer but no noise from the engine bay at all.

Thank you very much for your help satch. This is very troubling. I hope we can solve it soon.

satch

iTrader: (1)

If you're okay w/removing the installed CAS you can try the same thing but you really need to unplug the coils. You can also jumper the fuel check connector and unplug the AFM and see what difference it makes as it could be interfering w/things. And the engine ground mounted on top of the engine housing could also be contributing to your problem.

Roarke

The afm and fuel jumper pin to activate the pump. Makes sense. Ill do that.

I thought I might have messed up the ecu ground under the uim so I went back in recleaned it and moved it to the egr valve mount bolt. It should be grounding fine. Im getting rather good and removing the uim.

satch

iTrader: (1)

The EGR cover should have a gasket underneath it which would possibly interfere w/that being a solid ground source I would tend to think.

Roarke

Oh.. damn.. it was the nearest open nut. Wouldnt the threaded mount go down to block? I voltmetered it to 12.4. I got the dash lights back, they now come on when I put the key in run. It still wont start. I forced the fuel pump on, now I hear a hissing of fuel rushing around but no clicking with the cas test. Even unplugged both coils from their power lines. Layed on the engine bay with my ear to the injectors and spun the thing both fast and slow in both directions a lot.

My fuel pump switch works since I can now control it directly after key on with the switch.
I suppose I could install the cas but if it doesnt work outside the motor why would it work inside the motor? I cant even get the external cas to produce leading spark. It should do that right?

I have plenty of gas in the tank and all my fuses look good.

satch

iTrader: (1)

If you have a working CAS it would work installed or held in the hand. Not sure what you mean by voltmetered it to 12.4 for if it is a ground it would have 0 volts or within a spec of 0 volts. If it reads 12 volts then that would be a telltale sign that it is not grounded properly.

Roarke

12.4 from battery to the ground. So neither cas works or its a different problem?

satch

iTrader: (1)

W/the original CAS you got spark but no injector clicks. W/the spare CAS you got neither. And then w/the original CAS pulled you got neither w/that. Is this correct? And the battery voltage is not related to the engine ground you redid.

Roarke

I havent removed it, I would need to get more stuff from my garage. My car is stuck on the street.

satch

iTrader: (1)

Make sure the CAS connection is good.


The B/Y wires at the injectors need to have 12 volts w/key to on.

If the B/Y wires at the coils do not have voltage anymore then check the EGI INJ fuse.

The ECU probably needs to be checked w/respect to certain pins. Pins 3E and 3C are the primary injectors and both should have 12 volts w/key to on. This verifies that the injector plugs are mated well and that the B/Y wires are supplying the proper voltage to each primary injector.

Pins 3G, 3A and 2R are all grounds and should read 0 volts w/key to on. If they have high voltage then the engine ground is no good.

And did you unplug the AFM when trying to get the injectors to click as the spare CAS was spun?

Roarke

Afm was unplugged for the tests. When I had the coils unplugged my dash lights came on when the key was in run. I plugged the leading in and the dash lights went away. Not sure what they mean really.

So with the trailing coil unplugged from power and the afm unplugged I probed the ecu pins.
Red multimeter connector on pin, black on ecu mount for ground.

3g 0vdc
3e 12vdc
3c 12vdc
3a 0vdc
2r 0vdc
Accidentally 3i 11.8vdc
So all good? What does it mean when I plug in the coils and the idiot cluster doesnt light up? Or is that unrelated?

satch

iTrader: (1)

The idiot cluster lights up w/key to on and the engine off or if the alternator is failing while the engine is running. And you might want to test pin 2A w/key to on as it should read 5 volts and do this test w/the AFM plugged in and also unplugged and see if there is a difference between the two. And perhaps the AFM should be plugged in when spinning the CAS.

Roarke

Just for kicks I tested all the pins on the ECU. Quite a few of them aren't right, including 3J which should be battery power and it gets 0v.

This test was done with everything plugged in and the key to On
I got the correct voltage numbers from the fsm.

<table border=1>
<tr><td>Pin</td><td>Current Voltage</td><td>Correct Voltage</td></tr>
<tr><td>2E </td><td>0</td><td>4</td></tr>
<tr><td>2M </td><td>12</td><td><2</td></tr>
<tr><td>2O</td><td>2</td><td>12</td></tr>
<tr><td>2P</td><td>12</td><td>2</td></tr>
<tr><td>2A</td><td>2</td><td>4.5-5.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>3J</td><td>0</td><td>12</td></tr>
<tr><td>1I</td><td>12</td><td><1.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>1O</td><td>12</td><td><1.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>1S</td><td>12</td><td><2.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>1U</td><td>0</td><td>4.4</td></tr>
<tr><td>1W</td><td>12</td><td><1.5</td></tr>
</table>

I also tested all my grounds for continuity and they all checked out.
From these readings I'm not getting AFM signal to ECU, or battery power to ECU, and my TPS is not adjusted right, my car has less than 20,000 miles, my heat hazard sensor has something wrong with it, my 5th switch thinks its in 5th gear, port air solenoid valve is way above voltage, and its not selecting which trailing coil to fire, vref is not right, and pressure regulator control solenoid valve is showing the volts its suppose to show on idle.

The only thing that meant anything to me is the battery power wire. I found connector FEM-02 and its the same there. I think its connected to the 7.5amp fuse in the fuse box. Its wired to a bunch of lights and stuff. I tried wiring battery power to the pin on the ecu and all the courtesy lights turned on, but it didn't help the car start.

Would the heat hazard sensor not allow the car to start? Does it think its on fire or something? It pumps fuel though...

I also forgot that I unplugged the afm and tested fuel improperly, wound up with a new fuel filter but it didn't help anything. Couldn't hurt though.

For some of these things like the fifth switch its probably good to mention that its an automatic car with no automatic transmission. Swapped to a manual.
All these mean anything?

satch

iTrader: (1)

"And you might want to test pin 2A w/key to on as it should read 5 volts and do this test w/the AFM plugged in and also unplugged and see if there is a difference between the two."

The reason you do this is because the AFM might be shorting out the ECU and you won't know this unless you unplug the AFM and test the voltage on pin 2A w/key to on. Something is shorting out the ECU based on your pin 2A readings as there are a handful of engine sensors which are supplied power from pin 2A.

FEM-02 has two sides to it so measuring at one end might not be good enough as the other side of the connector might actually have the correct voltage but that does not necessarily mean the voltage is passing through the connector to the other side. And this connector might not be properly connected to each other which can cause some of the funky readings you are getting.

And pin 3I is what powers the ECU w/key to on and not pin 3J.

Roarke

I tried editing the post to tell you I was out doing that but maybe I closed it before saving sorry.
I realized those readings in my last post were AFM unplugged. I plugged it back in and got
2E 1.5
2A 1.9
Should I redo the whole thing?
My seat belts warning light flashed on and off and a buzzer randomly goes off... I think its all connected to that door light circuit that has no voltage at ECU. I used the color of the wire coming off the ECU and matched it to the wire on FEM-02 then tested the other side with the plug unplugged and got the same thing. I also unplugged it and plugged it back in. Everything looks ok. Doesn't mean much I suppose.

3I gets power fine.