E85?
 

How difficult or what do I need to do to run e85 in my for the most part stock t2?

standalone ECU, larger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and REALLY REALLY REALLY clean the shit out of the gas tank. also e85 rubber fuel lines.

Ok sweet, I have 750cc primary and 1200cc secondary's not in it now but have them, also i have a walbro 225 not in yet either, as far as the standalone whats a good brand or where can I find them? When and if i switch over is e85 bad for a rotary? I was thinking it isnt but i dont know lol. Also if I do this would I need to take to a tuner and have them dyno tune the car after making it standalone?

Its a Good amount of trouble for a stock car

It would be pretty pointless.

E85 has less power stored in it, but higher octane, so in order for it to be useful you need very high compressor and/or very high boost. neither of which you have.

it's also dryer than gasoline, so you'd probably have to premix and put more 2-stroke in than usual, not to mention, I don't know how e85 will mix with 2 stroke...

MoTeC is a good brand.
MoTeC > Dealers > United States

The rotary engine works just fine with alternate fuels. In fact, it is very flexible in this respect.

You would need a tuner, but not necessarily a dyno.

I would call it downright stupid to spend all that time and money to end up with less horsepower and worse mileage, but I assume the OP has some strange reason to want to do this.

As far as premix for E85 you need to run Castor 927

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo.../#post11088073

Be forewarned that typically E85 will corrode most fuel system / components that were not originally designed to handle that fuel. You may very well need to change more than just the rubber fuel line.

The reason I want to do this is because here in colorado if you run E85 you become emissions exempt for ever lol. So that way i would have to worry about putting the car back to stock just to pass emisions. I do have plans for the car, I want to run a gt35r or something of that nature, I already have full racing beat exhaust the rev2 one, and have the injectors and fuel pump, Just lacking turbo ecu and probably a few other things. But I just know all my dsm and toyota friends with e85 never have to do emissions again and now they can run rediculous set ups just for that reason

Do you have some documentation concerning that? I and some of my friends in CO would be very interested in this...

I dont personally no, but ill ask them what they had to do to do it. My friend has a 1G eclipse gsx and has a emissions exempt sticker now since he did that, so I will ask him hoe and post on here what he did to do it lol:icon_tup:

Below is the official statement and contact number to see if E85 counts as "alternatively powered" and how to get your car certified. My take is that "do not currently require" implies that they may test them in the future.

"** Hybrid electric vehicles, such as the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight, and other alternatively powered vehicles do not currently require emissions inspections.

For further information on exemptions, call your county motor vehicle office, or the Colorado Division of Motor Vehicles' Emissions Program Office at 303-205-5603. Also see information regarding vehicles manufactured outside the U.S. and kit cars"
Air Care Colorado :: Exemptions

but if you are stock why are you worried about it?

beanol is another additive for premix.

It sounds like he wants to upgrade, and doesn't want to worry about Colorado emissions. Colorado emissions is very similar to CA, a visual inspection of the engine bay, air pump, and cat, and then a tail pipe sniff test on a dyno. The problem with Colorado is that the age necessary for classic or collector plates was set to model year '75. If you have a model year '75 year or older car, you can get collector plates and never worry about emissions again. All newer cars must get an emissions test every two years. Currently nearly every RX-7 in Colorado must get emissions every two years forever, unless the law changes (which I doubt it ever will).

I'm concerned that this is just some policy set by the DMV and not codified into law (subject to change at any time), that the OP's friend is lying or misrepresenting what he did (the word of someone's friend I don't know isn't strong evidence in my view), and that the EPA does not accept conversion since it touches emission control devices (fuel system and ECU) which has hefty fines for violators. Many states have duplicate laws, and while your risk of being caught is low when you don't have emissions, being inspected every other year is a risk.

Well im not "stock" anymore, the only way I passed emissions here was because I drove the rx7 till it was practically empty and then put in like 2-3 gallons of e85. At that time I had my stock exhaust with a bonez cat on it and it passed with flying colors and i didnt even have the smog pump hooked up to anything lol luckly the couldnt see the hoses not connected, but regadless i passed.

I now have the racing beat rev2 exhaust and it has no cats. Also my plan is to upgrade in the near future probably will happen with my tax refund. So with running the e85 would hopefully allow me not to test for a while.


I understand you points. The "friend" is actually a friend of a friend. So I usually meet up with them once a week for some beers, ill ask him again on sunday if what he said is legit, you bring up alot of thoughts for me i appreciate that.

Basically I am just trying to figure out a way I can upgrade and never have to go back to the stock stuff just to pass emissions. I know its only one day is needed to pass, but to swap all the stuff it can be a pain in the ass.

And thank you guys for all your imput! :icon_tup::nod:

I can tell you switching to E85 was not cheap.. There is the the cheap way and the right way. I went the right way.. I made 443rwhp and 342 ft at 18psi . I'll post pics of what it take to setup your car the right way..

The most important thing to consider about E85 is that the ratio varies quite a bit over the course of the year, not to mention from pump to pump. Do not forget that below about 40F degrees, E85 is darn difficult to ignite - you need a really strong ignition system. So the "winter" blend is actually closer to E70.

I personally would not do a E85 conversion without using the the following;

GM flex fuel sensor (one of which is the same as the Haltech sensor)
true wide band O2 (not the cheaper "sort of" wide band sensor)
true four channel ignition system with either AC/Delco D585 or Mercury Marine 1A coils
an ECU that can use those input signals and ignition like a Haltech for example
plus a full fuel system that can handle E85 from a coated tank to properly sized pumps, lines, regulator & injectors

Like it was mentioned above, there is a cheap way and a right way.

I love E85 and hate it as well.

E85 can have as low as 60% ethanol content.

Here is a start of pic of my setup on my Timeattack racecar.
Imageshack - photo6ag.jpg

It seems to me that it would be more involved then showing up with E85 in your gas tank and getting exempt from emissions testing forever. Has to be more to it then that?

Hence the absolute need for the flex fuel sensor.

ya im sure there is I havent seen my friend for a little bit he is out of town... but ill find out for sure, either way i still think it would be cool to run it, i would deffinitly do it the right way, i think it would be a must!

Thanks for all your guys' input its helping alot!

Just for reference, this is a pretty plain English description of system design requirements and functionality involving Flex Fuel systems and E85.

http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/view...text=auto_pres

Here are the pics on what it take to run E85 properly..

So, an easy afternoon's work and about tree fiddy in cash, right?

Nope! If you play, you have to pay. To do it the right way...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I read somewhere that e85 has a octane rating of 112 to 116

heck ya thanks for the pictures! if you dont mind me asking how much did you spend on your e85 set up?

to give you an idea, those injectors are $500 a piece...

(injector dynamics 2225cc)

")

If most of the stuff was not sponsored, I would say 5 -6k....

Id2000 are NOT $500 a piece!! They are $500 the pair.

Also you can get 2000cc injectors from FiveOmotorsports for 150 a piece.

Braided ethanol rated hose for approx $4 per ft.

Stealth 340 for approx $150 a piece also ethanol rated

Misc fittings

Fuel cell maybe not necessary. 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable

I dont really see how you can spent 5k or 6k on a fuel setup. Can you enlighten me please.

There you go... Cheap way or the right way... Also are tanks are not rust tolerant.. Its people like VRx8 is why rotaries blow... I hate bad info!

lol... well Post your $6,000 dollar fuel setup. Break it down so we all can learn how to do it right.

My challenge to you is to build a 450 rwhp track or dd on E85. Drive it for a year and we will compare fuel systems... Take the challenge !! I have done it and I know what will last... Good luck!

Very nice looking system - done right too!

Few of questions: How larger is the fuel cell? Did you fabricate it yourself or was it a stock item and then adapted to fit? Does it have a baffled pickup area? Do you run pre-mix with E85? Do you run a Flex Fuel sensor so that you know the real percentages and if so what ECU do you run?

Glad someone out there knows what it takes to run a "proper" setup for E85.

Thats what I thought lol

I'm not sure anything will convince you, but I've had experience converting a vehicle to E85, and it does require you to rethink the entire fuel system.

Some food for thought on why the stock system may not handle E85 in the long term:
The EPA just approved an allowance for states to up E10 to E15 for model year 2001 and later vehicles-
The New Ethanol Blend May Damage Your Vehicle - Slashdot

Turns out a lot of manufacturers are against this since there are no studies indicating how moving to E15 will affect the longevity of modem vehicles. Now you probably have 100 and 1 conspiracy theories on why the manufactures would be against this, but I'm thinking if the companies which have a vested interest in designing a reliable vehicle are concerned that their state of the art products cannot handle 15% ethanol, why should I think a thirty year old vehicle would handle 85% ethanol just fine with mostly OEM parts?

Although you are under no obligation to do so, I think you should detail everything you've done to run E85. Basically if you are so convinced you've done it right, allow others to fully scrutinize you setup. You've hinted at some key parts, looks like stainless steel hard-lines, maybe 3/8th ID, but some of the details are missing like how are you handling variability in E85, which is not guaranteed to have exactly 85% ethanol content? On a boosted track car, I would think that is important to getting every last little bit of power out of your setup.

I'm on a cell phone right now.. Its hard to post pics and type out a list of stuff that I have done.
I can start by Explaining the fuel cell. The fuel cell is 14.5 gallons and does have a baffle system in it. The tank is a custom to fit in the factory postion. Its has 4 trap doors and a return baffle system. I'm using the aeromotive stealth in tank fuel pump. I'm also using a fuel safe rollover check valve and E85 fuel sender. The fuel line feeding is ss -10 and -8 return. The injectors are Id 2200cc. As for the engine bay, All line are -8 teflon lines. Not Cheap! Custom fuel rails made by Super now. I'll post more tonight when I get home.

Thanks Robert

I'm not using a Flex fuel sensor. I can with my Haltech P1000... I decided to us this analyzer.
Zeitronix ECA : SEMA Award Winning Ethanol Content Analyzer and Flex Fuel Sensor for E-85 and E-85/gasoline Blends
Its easy to add methnol... We tuned the car on e78.. That's what the analyzer said... As for premix I use castor 927.

subscribe.

I don't own an FC that why I said maybe on the fuel cell. So im keeping my OEM tank, teflon lines feed/return, flex fuel sensor, and 4x2000cc injectors and dual aeromotive 340's. Just becuase you pay more doesn't always means is "right" and only way to do it.

You get what you pay for...

Very nice! I have been in automotive fuel and spark product engineering for 27 years now and it is so nice to see when folks actually do things right. Very nice indeed!

The main worries with E15 are;

1) you are beginning to get to a point of no return on the capacity of ECU's fuel mapping's ability to adapt
2) the narrow band width of the O2 sensor
3) the fuel's additional conductivity
4) the added corrosive nature on both the susceptible metals and polymers
5) the added volume requirements of the fuel vs. the system designs parameters
6) not to mention the evaporative system capabilities

The old assumption that if this much is good and more is better is not is almost never the case. The uneducated politicians / bureaucratic are making decisions that should be best left to the engineers. If not, you are going to end up with something like the low volume 1.6 gallon per flush toilets.

Please tell me that you helped develop neon spark plug wires.
They ballin, yo.

from what I've seen with mates running E85 and ID injectors I would avoid using them. ID style injectors just gumm up and eventually become blocked causing engine failures and headaches, use the older style indy blues and no problems.

for the record in my E85 setup I run OEM tank with old 910 as lift, custom stainless surge feeding A1000, stainless mesh pre and post filters, 4 x indy blue all connected using speedflow fittings and hose, use castrol R30 as premix at 100:1 ratio, pics in my build thread if you want to have a suss.