DTSS Elimination: Delrin Upper and Lower/Pillow Bushings?
05-08-10, 11:10 AM
#28
Engine, Not Motor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
To clarify, the Mazdatrix bushings pictured are exactly the same that Mariah sells. Not sure if Mazdatrix buys from Mariah or vice versa. Either way, it took about 1.5 weeks to get from Mariah to me, not bad at all.
However, when I received them, I found that they do not contain a Delrin replacement for the pillow ball. This was annoying, but not the end of the world. I just pressed back in my stock pillow *****, found the location of the bore by temporarily installing my hub with the other Delrin bushings, then welded the pillow ball solid. Simple, effective, and free.
The kit comes with a set of Delrin trailing arm bushings which I will not use. I used the Delrin upper toe control bushing, and the Delrin DTSS eliminator bushing.
I doubt you will find it economically viable to reproduce these bushings. If you look in the Yamaguchi book, starting on page 54, there is an excellent description on how these bushings are setup. They are not just a solid chunk of rubber, but actually a mechanism encapsulated within a rubber bushing. Without going into the whole explanation, it is made up of:
-an inner round sleeve with a flat side, this is what the mounting bolt goes through
-two rubber cylindrical vertical pieces between the round side of the sleeve and the outer surface of the bushing
-a half-moon shaped "shim" between the flat surface and the outer bushing, coated in Teflon and Kevlar
-an outer rubber covering, protecting all of this
The bushing is designed to do various things at various stress points, and controls toe during acceleration, turning, braking and engine braking. It actually is a remarkable piece of engineering for the time.
To reproduce it properly you would need to find out the composition of all the rubber compounds used, which I don't see happening.
I can't speak to that, but every experienced track driver I have talked to on the issue says that with modern tires and a good suspension, DTSS is more of a detriment then an advantage.
Not sure yet. The car is not quite on the road at this time. I'm sure that it will be fine.
However, when I received them, I found that they do not contain a Delrin replacement for the pillow ball. This was annoying, but not the end of the world. I just pressed back in my stock pillow *****, found the location of the bore by temporarily installing my hub with the other Delrin bushings, then welded the pillow ball solid. Simple, effective, and free.
The kit comes with a set of Delrin trailing arm bushings which I will not use. I used the Delrin upper toe control bushing, and the Delrin DTSS eliminator bushing.
What are the OE toe control bushings made of?
Does anyone have any specs on them? Like size, shape and component makeup?
I enjoy my DTSS and my current employer may be able to have some things sourced and machined and assembled for a small group-buy. So any and all details and specifications would really help.
Does anyone have any specs on them? Like size, shape and component makeup?
I enjoy my DTSS and my current employer may be able to have some things sourced and machined and assembled for a small group-buy. So any and all details and specifications would really help.
-an inner round sleeve with a flat side, this is what the mounting bolt goes through
-two rubber cylindrical vertical pieces between the round side of the sleeve and the outer surface of the bushing
-a half-moon shaped "shim" between the flat surface and the outer bushing, coated in Teflon and Kevlar
-an outer rubber covering, protecting all of this
The bushing is designed to do various things at various stress points, and controls toe during acceleration, turning, braking and engine braking. It actually is a remarkable piece of engineering for the time.
To reproduce it properly you would need to find out the composition of all the rubber compounds used, which I don't see happening.
Just my opinion, but it's an engineering feat for a reason. Learn to utilize it and you can handle the car quite effectively, even at the limit.
I've done my fair share of at-the-limit driving on back roads and on the track, and I have to say that I love the feel of the DTSS way more than without. Maybe I can't spit the backend out as easily, but I prefer to stick anyways.
I've done my fair share of at-the-limit driving on back roads and on the track, and I have to say that I love the feel of the DTSS way more than without. Maybe I can't spit the backend out as easily, but I prefer to stick anyways.
Not sure yet. The car is not quite on the road at this time. I'm sure that it will be fine.
05-08-10, 03:31 PM
#29
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,816
Received 2,586 Likes
on
1,837 Posts
also the 90's honda civic/integra has some funny stuff going on in the rear too, among others
and we're due for a comeback of the less passive stuff too
05-08-10, 05:43 PM
#30
It is apples to oranges comparing the semi trailing arm/passive rear steer out of an FC and 928 Porsche to a multilink design.
07-06-10, 01:35 PM
#31
does anyone know where I can get upper toe control bushings by themselves?
I already have DTSS elimitators and I'm installing spherical bearings on the control arms so I don't need those bushings either and I'd rather not spend $200 on a kit and not used 2/3rds of it...
I already have DTSS elimitators and I'm installing spherical bearings on the control arms so I don't need those bushings either and I'd rather not spend $200 on a kit and not used 2/3rds of it...
08-14-10, 09:44 PM
#32
Autocross Fanatic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: arcata, CA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
so dose anyone know if this replacement bushing will work? the main reason I am trying this it is a lot cheaper than buying spherical trailing arm bushings and adjustable links from MMRdirect and it will be CSP legal for auto-cross.thanks for any replies.
08-15-10, 09:01 AM
#33
I have a answer and a question at the same time; I bought a "Whiteline Rear Camber Adjustment Hub Upper" made by whiteline from upscaleautomotive.com for 87.37 shipped. this kit will adjust the camber +/-1.50 deg, I contacted whiteline directly to ask if it would work with a rear steer eliminator and they said it would have no problems. personally I am skeptical because the axis of the DTSS bushing doesn't intersect the lower pillow ball bushing thus i believe binding will occur. unfortunately the part is back-ordered and they have to special order from Australia "8-10 weeks" so dose anyone know if this replacement bushing will work? the main reason I am trying this it is a lot cheaper than buying spherical trailing arm bushings and adjustable links from MMRdirect and it will be CSP legal for auto-cross.
thanks for any replies.
so dose anyone know if this replacement bushing will work? the main reason I am trying this it is a lot cheaper than buying spherical trailing arm bushings and adjustable links from MMRdirect and it will be CSP legal for auto-cross.thanks for any replies.
I know a guy who runs an sts fc and just got new rubber bushings with mmr adjusters.
08-15-10, 09:38 AM
#34
Autocross Fanatic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: arcata, CA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only reason I am not trying that route is because I just bought the solid delrin suspension and drivetrain kits from mmrdirect and the adjustable links won't work with the solid swingarm bushing. So I am trying this to adjust out some negative camber in the rear. On a side note has anyone used the upper camber plates on coilovers to instead dial in castor by mounting them 90 degrees instead?
08-15-10, 12:43 PM
#35
Autocross Fanatic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: arcata, CA
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just grabbed my extra trailing arm that I will be painting and pressing in new bushings, I removed the bolt from the triaxial bushing and loosened the DTSS bolt. As I moved the hub towards more positive camber the DTSS bushing did not appear to compress. Now I just need to press in the DTSS eliminator to confirm this, then wait for the camber adjustable triaxial replacement bushings from whiteline.
08-15-10, 01:10 PM
#36
I would imagine with a solid DTSS it would not allow for any movement since you are basically making the hub solid mounted to the trailing arm. This is another reason why the upper and lower control arm bushings pretty much become useless when converting to a DTSS eliminator. If you find different results than this please let us know...
01-17-11, 06:43 PM
#38
MECP Certified Installer
I skimmed over this thread and will add this.
I have retained my DTSS and all of my bushings are good.
I did some track driving and while DTSS works, if you just smidge yourself over the limit, you start losing control almost instantly. The system works, but it eliminates that "imminent control loss" you feel on a non-DTSS car.
$0.02
I have retained my DTSS and all of my bushings are good.
I did some track driving and while DTSS works, if you just smidge yourself over the limit, you start losing control almost instantly. The system works, but it eliminates that "imminent control loss" you feel on a non-DTSS car.
$0.02
03-03-11, 04:03 PM
#40
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great info in this thread. Because I'm a visual guy I've got a photo of the rear control arm. The bushing on the left is the pillowball mentioned in this thread and the rubber around it is the seal. The bushing to the right upper rubber bushing mentioned in the thread. Not shown here is the DTSS bushing which is part of the hub assembly. I'll be taking my spare assembly by a race shop in the next few weeks to get them to make replacement delrin bushings for both.
03-05-11, 10:54 AM
#43
Engine, Not Motor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
The trailing arms appear to be cast, but in reality, only a few sections are cast. 
They are a combination of several stamped parts welded together and a few cast sections. They are hollow as well.
They are a combination of several stamped parts welded together and a few cast sections. They are hollow as well.
04-26-11, 09:21 PM
#45
Full Member
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: L town Indiana
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bringing back an older thread....
I too have a complete delrim set in my trailing arms....as well as solid dtss eliminators and was looking to take out some negative camber.
I went with the whiteline kit pictured...
I am kind of leery of it though since there is no way to adjusted them....No special bolt or anything....I think you just press them in and push and pull on the hub to spin them were you want them then tighten down on the bolt....or am I just missing something......
I too have a complete delrim set in my trailing arms....as well as solid dtss eliminators and was looking to take out some negative camber.
I went with the whiteline kit pictured...
I am kind of leery of it though since there is no way to adjusted them....No special bolt or anything....I think you just press them in and push and pull on the hub to spin them were you want them then tighten down on the bolt....or am I just missing something......
04-26-11, 11:52 PM
#47
Bringing back an older thread....
I too have a complete delrim set in my trailing arms....as well as solid dtss eliminators and was looking to take out some negative camber.
I went with the whiteline kit pictured...
I am kind of leery of it though since there is no way to adjusted them....No special bolt or anything....I think you just press them in and push and pull on the hub to spin them were you want them then tighten down on the bolt....or am I just missing something......
I too have a complete delrim set in my trailing arms....as well as solid dtss eliminators and was looking to take out some negative camber.
I went with the whiteline kit pictured...
I am kind of leery of it though since there is no way to adjusted them....No special bolt or anything....I think you just press them in and push and pull on the hub to spin them were you want them then tighten down on the bolt....or am I just missing something......
04-27-11, 12:34 AM
#48
Full Member
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: L town Indiana
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the hub upper there isnt an eccentric bolt like on the front...its just a straight through plain jane normal bolt.....
As far as will it work....yes...if i can figure out how to adjust it...
The axis the dtss is on is different then the upper so you can move the upper even if the dtss is solid mounted.....
Now just to see how to adjust it...I emailed whiteline just a few mins ago...
As far as will it work....yes...if i can figure out how to adjust it...
The axis the dtss is on is different then the upper so you can move the upper even if the dtss is solid mounted.....
Now just to see how to adjust it...I emailed whiteline just a few mins ago...