That's all really good advice to begin learning how to drift, obviously oversteer makes it easier to get the rear end out. But a car with a tendency to oversteer will be slower than a car with a bit of understeer.

That's why I'd like to do a lot of those things, to make the car oversteer more and as I become more comfortable gradually readjust the car to understeer.

Tendency to oversteer + too much throttle = lose control

With understeer you can safely give it more throttle, and use the front tires more for drifting, and go faster. I think a true drift is a juggle between managing oversteer and understeer at the same time with the steering wheel, brake, and throttle. If you're just oversteering I don't really consider that to be drifting, just oversteer.

That's why I kinda think the rear steer thing could actually make the FC a competent, fast drifter. Even if it does make it more difficult to do for a beginner. If you get the hang of the DTTS I can seriously see how it can be used advantageously.

Just my opinion, I like this topic.

 

Well Mykl you bring an interesting point to light. Some of the best drifters in the world create understeer (push) while they are in the drift so it is more controllable (AKA the “Drift King”). This is why a set of caster camber plates help. When your car is in a turn the tires have flex and what they call roll over (when you are gripping on the side walls) When you adjust the plates to give you a certain degree of negative camber, yes at a stand still the tires are riding on the inside of the tread. But when you are in the turn your roll over puts the tires “grip patch” flat. This causes the cars response to be greater and you can even cause the car to push while you have the rear end swinging out because you have that extra grip in the front.

On the subject of DTSS I have had two RX-7’s one 86 GXL and now my super sweet GTUs the GXL had the DTSS still activated and when the car would create oversteer and at the braking point of the tires grip the car would create a degree of toe-in causing the car to get grip and squat down. The way I compensated for this in the GXL was to be more aggressive in setting up the initial drift (harder faints, more speed, huge hand full of the e-brake) It did the job but even sometimes the DTSS would still catch and I would have massive amounts of snap over steer in the opposite direction because of the cars attitude when it squatted and I would end up rotating . My GTUs does not have the DTSS any more and I notice it is easier to set the car up for the initial drift and I can control it more with out fear of the nasty snap oversteer. This topic is sweet I love it lets keep it going.

 

why dont we have a drifting section? or an autocrossing section, i mean we have street races (kill section) and time slips section (for 1/4)

 

Well, if we really want to make a car drift ready we may want to dial in some toe-out on the front wheels to give the car a more responsive turn in. It may be overkill for the street, and you'll eat up tires like mad, but it's just another thing.

I can understand how the "unpredictability" of DTTS could be quite difficult to control, especially to somebody who isn't used to it. However, have you tried using it to change the car's direction in a hurry? That snap oversteer could be quite useful in some situations if you needed to turn quick.

I've noticed it most when I'm flying out of a hard sweeping turn where the car is understeering a bit (just the DTTS doin' it's thing), let off the gas, then snap oversteer. This could be useful on a decreasing radius type of turn where you needed a the car to cut in a bit at the last second, but don't want to lose much momentum.

I also have to wonder if it would be possible to use that momentum as a faint if you were hitting an 'S' section and needed to cut back the other direction. Half way around the turn let off the gas and turn the wheel in the other direction. I've never consciously tried to do that, but it's the same theory as a simple faint except you're using the rear suspension to point the car more.

I think the DTTS is a like it or love it type thing. Where it could be good for one person who understand it, I can see how it can easily be a nightmare for somebody else who didn't know what was going on. I've gotten to the point where I don't mind it much, and I'd like to keep it, but it does indeed make it way more difficult for a beginning drifter.

So I have to wonder, if I removed the DTTS bushings to put in eliminators would I be able to put the DTTS bushings back if I wanted to? Or are they not reusable?

You make good points on camber angle, and due to the way I drive my car and the considerable amount of wear I'm getting on the outside of my front tires (real real bad) I'm thinking about adding a touch of negative camber to the front if I can. I've had these tires for less than 5000 miles and they're almost done. I think I can get another 5000 out of them, but that would be pushing it.

 

Because drifting isn't very popular. Most people don't have anywhere to do it and for the most part the people who do aren't willing to drive like that, not in the States anyway. I'm not sure how it is elsewhere.

That and I'm not a big fan of adding more sections to an already crowded forum.

 

Oh yeah...

Rotary Racer, if you don't want the snap oversteer just keep your foot in it. If you keep the rear end pinned with the throttle then you don't have to worry about the snap oversteer effect.

Although you probably already know that, you seem quite knowledgeable when it comes to this. I like discussions on this topic because I don't really have anybody to talk to on it, or learn from.

None of my friends really understand it and most of them don't care.

 

Yeah, it really isn't popular over here. I don't think it will ever be really accepted into the car culture in America. Most car guys take themselves to seriously to have goofy fun in a car. Over here, there has to be a clear winner in a competition. Who's faster or who's quicker means more than who's better. Drifting has nothing to do with competition, it's all about fun. Sure you can learn a lot about driving from doing it, but the main reason that it draws it's fans is because it is fun to do and watch.
I used to get my fix on driftclub.com until one day the forum ceased to be. It was nice and quiet until Stupor Street started writing about drifting like they knew what they were saying. What you have read in that magazine is far from reality what is going on in Japan. But they wrote it and people believe it. Too many people came on and would ask crap like "how do I drift my Integra?". It got to be a real drag.

jerk_racer@hotmail.com

 

Yes the DTSS can be re-installed it is just a pain in the booty.
Bummer about the tires I know I am starting to eat the hell out of my AVS intermediates. *cry* and they are not making them any more oh well looks like I am going to try a set of those falkens.

 

Ya im a big fan of drifting in fact my first post on this forum was about a good turbo upgrade for a drift car.

 

MYKL, you and I feel the same way. I could have gotten a turbo II, or an FD by now, or even modded mine. but making up for lack of skill is not the way to go in my book. and I have a ways to go.

 

umm drift it the fine line between oversteering and understeereing i think i werded it right

ur basically going between both

 

umm no its not, thats called neutral handling.

boy, back in the day, drifting wasnt accepted. now its a hot thing that only the elite do down here in the Tampa Bay area. some of the drift sessions are on an invitation-only basis. so on the saturday nights while the kids are out w/ their civics and altimas and saturns... the elite are out w/ their silvias, 240's and Hachi's... i would probably be the only 7 there cuz the S13/S14 bandwagon down here is almost as big as the honda thing.

Im fixin to get my S in perfect working order and swapping in a few select S4 parts, mainly creature comforts and maintenance reasons. i really need to fix my power loss though. i have no power over 4000 rpm... dont know if its my VDI or my 6PI or what.. but its doggy in the top end.

The first thing i need to do is work on stiffening up my chassis and driveline.

any preferences on suspension bushings or chassis improvement pieces?

also, any consensus on which anti-sway bars are good for keeping the car nice and flat or do they all perform identically?

DTSS eliminators: any difference between the ones from mazdatrix and RB?

Oh... and getting your car to come out of a drift w/o the snap is a sign of real talent... im still workin on that part.

i forgot to mention: Power Over is a legitimate drift technique too. The others are "Feint" or Scandinavian Flick, Accel off or lift-throttle-oversteer... however the E-brake i dont think is a legit drift technique. I see it used to sustain a drift or to modulate the attitude/angle of the car during a drift but i think its generally frowned upon as a method to initiate a drift... thats kind of a poseur method that kids do in their mom's Accord.

Open diff cars are very driftable, you just have to do the feint to get it to go or kick the clutch to step out. i have a couple friends who drift VERY VERY well and both drive open-diff cars... one is a beat *** 240sx, the other is a RHD-converted 240sx.

 

great topic guys...i know it's been said before and it's a little old but it's really appreciated none the less

 

i guess someone probably already said it but anyways almost all cars have a differential between the drive wheels because when you turn the outside wheel turns faster than the inside so if it didnt have a differential they would spin at the same speed, loosing traction and creating bad uneven tire wear. with the differential though, when your drive wheels are burningout and your turning it makes one wheel almost stop turning (it thinks its just doing a really tight turn where the outside wheel needs to spin extremely fast and the inside slow or not at all). the same thing happens on ice (i think). thats why you need lsd so both wheels will still get power even though your sliding. i hope some of the made sense, some of it might of not been right but i tried.

 

i guess someone probably already said it but anyways almost all cars have a differential between the drive wheels because when you turn the outside wheel turns faster than the inside so if it didnt have a differential they would spin at the same speed, loosing traction and creating bad uneven tire wear. with the differential though, when your drive wheels are burningout and your turning it makes one wheel almost stop turning (it thinks its just doing a really tight turn where the outside wheel needs to spin extremely fast and the inside slow or not at all). the same thing happens on ice (i think). thats why you need lsd so both wheels will still get power even though your sliding. i hope some of the made sense, some of it might of not been right but i tried.

 

I found a rear strut tower bar made my car slightly more predictable in drift...

and I was FINALLY able to utilyze throttle lift oversteer to initiate drift once I added the rear bar.

Before the low compression, low rotating mass and low friction of my '87 TII rotary would NOT allow throttle lift oversteer.

I personally like throttle lift oversteer drift initiation because it is so natural and fast- let off the throttle coming into the corner too fast and straighten the wheel a bit and get back on throttle to hold a neutral drift- feeding power in or out to control the direction of the front of the car.

The previously mentioned understeer intitiated drift can be faster in a single long corner, but the car suffers too much in multiple transitions for me- an understeering car is just not usually fast on initial turn-in.

I already had JIC coil-overs, toe eliminators, poly bushings , etc, etc- but the rigid JIC CF rear bar really made noticeable changes.

Totally eliminated uncontrollable wheel hop I had as well...

By no means am I a "drifter", it is just as I try to drive known corners as fast as I can on street tires I invariably end up drifting before finding the perfect speed for the given corners. And sometimes I force it a little for fun...

 

make sure the car is reinforced at 85 percent of all angles my car is the stiffest on the track this is a good way to get all the tourque to the wheels insted of the turque going through the chasis and remember power is not the main key suspension and stiffness is

 

Putting crap tires in the rear is a big misconception...it works and helps for beginners to get used to the uneasy feeling of losing control...but...drifting is all about traction, and controlling it.

If you never have traction in the rear, all you are doing is tail out jackassery. You want to have traction in the rear to regain control

 

Good point BlackR1- BTW, I recommend crap tires on all 4 corners for the beginner. Just brings the speed of drift to car totalling speeds instead of instant death .

Example-
My 1st learning in a '80 Sylvia was on 100,000 mile warany limo tires. Very low threshold and progessive break-away w/ lots of warning noise. Perfect for a true hack. Of course, they lasted !~30,000 miles since I was ALWAYS overheating them.

The very best drift drivers in Japan have cars that are set-up as close to true race cars as the drivers can handle. Drifting has evolved to the point where the judges recognise the chassis set-up and driving aids that make drift easier, but would NEVER be used in a race car. They judge the pros accordingly, not to mention the chassis w/ higher limits will carry more speed through the drift and so get points for pulling away from the competitor.

Example-
At 7Stock my friend and I saw the white Apex'i drift 3rd gen. We were speculating what type of racecar it was when I recognized that it was a "twin" of Japanese D1 3rd gen. I said, "it is for drift". He couldn't believe it since it was set up so race ready (widened fenders, wide wheels/tires, no excess camber, some susp. travel etc.), but sure enough there it was in big vinyl letters "DRFT"

 

your full of ****. you can kick any car out if your a good driver, LSD or not. and you dont NEED an LSD to drift, IMO its better to start without one to work on your driveing skills.

 

right...

want to make your car stiffer so the steering and throttle inputs are more precise and sudden???

try stitch welding your chassis and unibody. thats the REAL way to do it instead of throwing on a STrut tower brace and calling it a day. lightening your chassis and stitch welding all the joints will make it so much sturdier you almost dont need a strut tower brace, but i would use them anyways because every little bit counts, just like weight reduction: it all adds up in the end.

Lift throttle oversteer is a good technique, sometimes its the only technique you can use to combo. in an under powered car, you cant really power over in a turn so you either cheat and use the E-brake or you feint when you go into the turn... then if you have LSD, just get on the gas, but if you have an open diff, you might have to clutch-kick it to keep the rear tires broken loose. then when you come back out of the turn and have to set up for the other, you have to jump off the throttle real fast so get your rear end to slide back the other way... if you have seen someone combo or know how to do it, then you know what im talkin about and you also know that lift-throttle over steer is pretty valuable. So if your chassis isnt set up or doesnt allow you to perform lift-throttle oversteer, you might wanna address that before getting to serious into Dorifto's

 

Nice topic. I plan to get into drifting as well. I have a '89 Turbo II and I'm planning to install Kaaz 1.5 way LSD, RB springs(already have KYB AGX shocks on the car to go along with these), and some strut braces and start drifting. It looks like it is a good idea to eliminate DTSS for a noob like me. So basically all FCs have it? Also, is there anything else that I should add to my car? Like camber plates, bigger sway bars, etc?

 

DTSS is probably not your friend when trying to set up a Drift car.

DTSS "activates" when the lateral loading gets high enough... which is usually the point where the car wants to break free and begin to drift. the DTSS bushings let the trailing arms adjust their toe angle and keep the tires planted... so its like just when you expect the rear to slide out, it doesnt. kinda disappointing, especially when you are all tensed up and prepared for the counter steer and the car doesnt slide.

you dont need camber plates yet. it depends on how much the RB springs drop your car...

but... either way, you can drift your car just the way it sits. the thing i can see you getting the most benefit from is eliminating the DTSS bushings. Possibly re-bushing your suspension components w/ Polyurethane bushings and some strut tower braces would help.

 

This is kinda scary...

It's hard to give advice when we don't know the level of skill for the driver in question.

I would never recommend this kinda set-up, as you basically have 4 questions marks in all 4 corners. I recommend the good tires in front and crappy tires in back. If anything, spinning the car is more conducive to driftiing than sliding into everything cause you got no traction up front - i.e. understeer or push.

[B}BlackR1[/B] makes a good point about having good tires in the rear, but most of us just don't have the budget to buy even decent tires to "practice" on. I help out guys who can shred a pair of rear tires in one lap (1.5 mile course) in a KA-powered 240SX with just an exhaust on it. Even going with Kumho 712's at $50 a pop, burning $100 every 3 laps get REALLY expensive!

The KEY to drifiting is stabilizing the front as much as possible. If you understand this concept, then the path to upgrades will be fairly predictable.

On the question on LSD's...a good, working LSD just makes the car throttle steer more predictably. Throttle steer control is basically what drifting is about.


-Ted

 

Ted... i dont think you really know what youre talking about...



Using shitty tires is a good way to get started out and avoid spending big bucks... if your trying to emulate D1, you want as close to a race setup as possible w/ some quality tires... even Kumho's and Hankook's are suffient. Pep Boys Specials are not, nor are junkyard tires at the super price of $20 "all you can carry".

FYI, the idea behind crazy negative camber came from kids taking out old, decripit cars that has way too much compliance in the suspension and bushings that their old, crusty, weather-checked tires would roll under during hard turns... so they needed wicked camber to keep an flat contact patch even with massive roll-under. Nowadays, the drift cars dont need that crazy bow-legged negative camber cuz we have modern technology and new components... not 13-17 year old technology w/ parts that are just as old and worn out.