If you all are SCCA members, I suggest reading the past few months articles that are part of the SCCA Safety Symposium. A few quotes:

"Belt stretch is not desirable, and tests have shown that, in an accident, the human body will absorb more g-forces than the car. For example, if the cockpit comes to a complete stop in 20 milliseconds and the belts stretch for five milliseconds, the body then only has 15 milliseconds to stop. This quicker deceleration causes the driver to 'hit harder' than the car." --July 2003, page 40


"Whenever possible, the seat and seat belts should be secured directly to the roll cage of the vehicle. In a unibody car, the chassis and roll cage might not be affected in the same manner. If the belts are attached to the chassis and the seat is attached to the roll cage, there is potential for the belt to go slack as the chassis and roll cage move differently in an accident." --August 2003, page 38

It is also important to note that the life of an FIA seat and harnesses is limited, typically five years for seats and two for harnesses.

The chances of a rollover on the street are low compared to the opportunity for head on, rear end and side impact collisions. If on the track however, roll over risks are greater and CAREFUL attention should be paid to seats, harnesses, and cage/bars, how they are mounted and installed.

Make an infomed decision for yourself.

Crispy, I think you misinterpreted the picture (at least if I understand it and you right).

https://store3.yimg.com/I/soloracerdotcom_1691_104231

The top picture shows anchor points D & E are down at the rear seats. The bottom picture is the same -- point E looks like it's on the C pillar, but it's not, it's still at the seat. In both diagrams, there is 1 point on the C pillar and both pics are marked not-suitable. Point C is also marked unsuitable, but it appears on the rear shelf (like a child restraint anchor point). I don't see any belt attached to the C pillar in either pic, particularly the top one you mentioned.

Trav,
I was speaking to the disparity between the *photo* image and the graphic you note. Not the two diagrams within the one graphic.
Note from the picture the mounitng point for the driver shoulder belt on the C pillar (white arrow)

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1964115

Crispy

Yo,


Sorry about the confusion, Schroth makes a variety of street harnesses.

They make the Rallye 3 which is a 3 point belt, the tail strap attaching to the C pillar.

They make the Rallye 4 which is a 4 point belt, the tail staps attaching to the rear lap belt points.

That is what is pictured, the Rallye 3 and the Rallye 4. I forgot the "4" the second time I typed Rallye.

I've been talking about my Scirocco since I've actually had the Rallye 4's in them for about 7 years. I will check Schroth's website to see if there is a replacement age limit...spending $150 for new ones is cheap insurance.

But to all RX-7 owners, you need to check out the seat guide on the Schroth website, DL the PDF, etc. If you are running an aftermarket seat with harness holes that is FIA approved, you can do it. The current seats in my GTUs are not approved due to the sloping sides.

Check it out!

Kevin
1989 GTUs "I need a Recaro SRD for my Scirocco!"

yep, you're exactly right, I missed that photo.
thanks for the clarification! :)

I'm 17, and I am about to put in a roll bar and harnesses, does that mean that if I put that in and it saves my life after rolling my '90 GXL 4 times down the interstate how would you feel?
p.s. I also plan to autocross and eventually w2w the car

Here's a pic of my '87 sport which was rolled, albeit it wasn't a very high impact roll, and it ended up on it's wheels.

http://www.sonicrat.org/~rat/cars/rx7-3/DCP_0779.JPG

Wow, you got lucky. How did you not even break a mirror!

Wow, you got lucky. How did you not even break a mirror!

Wow, you got lucky. How did you not even break a mirror!

It broke 1 mirror and the windshield was shattered, has been replaced, but that's exactly how it looked (minus the headlights, those didn't survive)

I gave up arguing with kids on the 2G forum a long time ago. Do whatever the hell you want to do.

PaulC

Just make sure you install the rollbar and harnesses as per the SCCA regulations.

I work tech inspection sometimes at the Solo2 events here in SoCal and I love to find the harnesses that don't meet SCCA regulation. It's funny that people will spend $100 on harnesses and not install them properly. They look all surprised when I tell them they can't use the harness since it was not installed preperly.

As far as the overall theme of this thread, I would say that the Original Poster has a point. I had a roll bar in my FC for autocross and only used the harness when autocrossing or track days. I personally think that harnesses on the street make you look like an idiot, unless you're driving your "autocross only" car with cage/harness to lunch on your break.

Well, that's my two cents....
Just to re-iterate....
1. Install harnesses only if you have at the minumum, a roll bar.
2. Mount the harnesses as per SCCA regulations and you should be safe on the track
3. Don't use harnesses on the street, they often do more harm than good.

Interestingly, I just saw something on the history channel about automotive saftey tech that said most automobile manufacturers are working on 4-point harnesses and expect them to become standard in the next 10 years or so because under certain circumstances it is possible to slip out of a 3-point seatbelt.

Who has the time to get into a 5-point harness on the street anyways? I have one installed, but I never use it on the streets...why?

A) Time - It takes me 3-4 mins to get into a 5-point, and if you forgot something in your pocket like your cell, or keys, then you have to loosen them up.

B) Safety - One look at the BMW - nuff said!

C) Looks dumb anyways wearing a 5point on the street. Looks too F&F to me...

David

long winded but with a point
 

I myself have been in a high speed crash (110) and would like to share the outcome and my slow motion rememberance.
(overview)
We were in a worked 1992 Honda civic. There were 4 occupants in the car. i was in the back seats behind the driver. earlier in the day were installed brand new shocks and coilovers but didn't have time to adjust them so they were bit bouncey. We were on the highway and began to compete with a volvo s70. A few minutes into this fun ordeal the incompitant driver decided to cut us off when he realzed he was about to miss his exit. We were traveling at approx 110 mph when we swurved t avoid the volvo and simoultaniously went over a rather large bump. These 2 event combined with the bouncy suspension sent us careening into a steel light post at a slightly off form 90 degree angle. the car bounce off the pole and flew through the air flipping half way and landing on its drivers side. the car then grinded along for nearly 100 feet before turning upright facing traffic which luckily stopped when the pole fell across the roadway.
(passenger report)
The driver wearing a stock 3 point harness was slammed twords his left effectivly cracking the drivers window as his head flailed around helplessly. His back sustained muscle damage form his body twisting uncontrollably form the waist up.
The front seat passenger was also wearing a stock 3 point harness. he was thrown twords the center of the car effectively smashing his face into the dashboard, loosening all of his teeth and injuring his jaw.
I was wearing a lap belt but was saved any severe damage by two very lucky things. First of all during the initial impact the drivers seat twisted off its tracks and pinned both my legs preventing my from moving up. Second of all the other rear seats occupant saw my head bounce off the glass when the car turned on its side and grabbed me by may face to prevent it from happening again(i love that guy). He fractured his wrist when he braced for impact by grabbing the seat infront of him. Besides the bumps and bruises everyone recieved he was otherwise uninjured.

My point:
Every injury sustained in this accident and 99% of others like it were due to the free motion of the upper torso and head. I totally understand and agree with the valid points made about roll over crashes but considering that non-roll overs account for 98% of all crashes I would defintely take this risk of that slight possibility over the more likely event of me being tossed around inside and/or expelled violently from my vehicle. Its just common sense.

disclaimer: by no way shape or form do i condone irresponsible racing on public roadways and/or hondas beign seriously considered for any competition.

I got into an accident a year ago. I was driving a jetta. On an onramp i it a patch of sand and the car did a complete 360 before going across the 3 lanes of traffic and slamming into the median. The car impacted on the driver side front corner. From the impact i suffered a concussion from my head slamming against the pillar, a broken collar bone and upper arm bone from the door/pillar.

just food for thought

I'm short and very girl shaped. my stock lap belt is very loose, and the shoulder belt (S5's have separate lap and shoulder belts) always ends up migrating up to across my neck. I've tried wrapping the two belts together at the lap belt buckle, but I dont really feel comfortable twisting the belts, as I know that that reduces their effectiveness. And those velcro things ppl put on the seatbelts to change the attachment angle are a joke. I'll just live with their scareyness on the street, but I'm tired of my back and legs hurting after every run on the auto-X course. I know that means I'm sliding around in my seat. I have considered a set of 4-points for track use, using a rear strut-tower brace to help mount them. Any constructive thoughts?

Might as well add my two cents.


I agree with the first post.




But, I do have a padded 5 point roll cage in my car, I have no rear seats though, just pods, the rollcage doesn't protrude past my front seats, so there's no danger of hitting your head.

Though my car is mainly used for track days when i can afford them. It does very very nicely add to the stiffness of the car though.

I think a couple of points missing from this:

There isn't anything wrong with running a car with a cage on the street, and at the same time there isn't anything wrong with running harnesses on the street it seems more a product of misguided people.

Firstly, chrome cages, aluminium cages and poor off the shelf items are the cause of many problems. In the event of a crash items such as aluminium cages will cause more harm than good. In the same way incorrectly fitted and cheap harnesses will also provide a significant risk with the potential for the anchor point to break in the even of an accident.

That said if you do the job properly there is nothing wrong with the setup of harness/cage. Yes if you have harnesses you should run a full cage and not an off the shelf item. I mean a properly made cage from 4030 CroMo or CDS tube, which should conform to the relevant SFI specs for the type of vehicle. If this is done very few tubes in most cars would be within reach of the drivers head so in the event of a crash you won't have to worry about that. homologated FIA approved padding should be used anywhere arms/etc could possibly contact the cage.

In the event of an accident i'd rather be in a car with a cage and harnesses than without.

Here in the UK there are a number of sub 8 second street cars running FTC and harnesses which regularly perform 30 mile cruises. Are they unsafe?

The honest points to make here should be

A) Awareness of the shoddy products on the market both cage and harness wise. Make sure you choose a good harness and have a cage custom built from the correct tube making sure that the structure is TIG welded at all joints. Do not opt for chrome items or polished aluminium - THESE ARE CHEAP TAT

B) Make sure if you choose to run harnesses you wear them correctly - i.e. v. tight you should not be able to get your hand under the harness i.e. between the harness and your body. On the road this will make driving very hard and uncomfortable.

C) Drive within your limits, the cars limits and the limits of the road/conditions

With these points - it would seem obvious that harnesses are really impractical for the road - they will restrict your movement and visibillity and could increase your chances of an accident. They are not so impractical from a saftey point of view, but you should keep the points made in this post in mind.

Cages - i see no reason to keep a caged car of the street, just remember you should use harnesses with a cage.

Now a final point to note - there are now several companies that make inertia reel harnesses for those cars which are used on the street and at motorsport events. maybe an ideal solution for many users they can be locked static or set to inertia mode and are FIA approved [although not for drag racing]

FIRST of all..


HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!!!


And second of all...


Do what you please, okay? After that accident when you come back with a concussion so heavy you can't think straight anymore, and/or a cracked skull, then we'll feel bad for you, that's how we'll feel.

You want to ignore the advice of people who design cars and race them all their lives, go ahead. Obviously being on this planet 17 years now gives you the experience and knowledge to override the strong recommendations of those who get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to study this stuff.

I'm curious, I'm about 6'4 and I don't fit completely firmly into the stock seat belts, they kind of go over the corner of my shoulder and not over the area nearer to my neck. I cannot adjust it higher to fit like so. I've considered replacing my seats with lower ones to fit, but I'm already hard pressed to get in and out of the car without literally climbing.

Roll overs ignored (I'm pretty much dead in those no matter what) would 4 or 5 point seat belts be a good idea due to the fact that I can slip laterally out of the belt without much work at all, and I really don't feel like flying into my no-airbag steering wheel.

Bahh...
 

I'm an SCCA Official and regional race competitor. Did anyone take my word in my post on the second page of this thread? Nope. F' em if they don't care to listen, believe, understand.

Roll over acidents are rare, but do happen.
I was in one myself in a 92 taurus, stupid driving was the contributing factor, hitting a curb sideways at about 40 was the cause. The car flipped landed on the roof in a turn lane, slid into the inside curb and when the roof hit that it flipped again sending the car onto its wheels. Ended up in a field about 2 feet from a very large light post at least 100 feet from the starting point. I was wearing the stock belt as were the 2 other passengers and I was definitely free to flop around.
In fact the centrifigal force of the rolling car put my head toward the driver side window, just above the steering wheel. This was exactly the section that hit on the inside curb. The roof was pushed in and actually hit me in the head, luckaly I walked away from that accident unharmed as did my friends (though I did ask if we could do it again as a joke..., ah to be young and stupid again) lol
Firstly if I had been wearing a harness, though I doubt I would in a crappy ford sedan, I would not have gotten attacked by the roof.
Secondly if the roof had collapsed completely, due to the angle the stock belt let me fling into, I would have been force down to the left and made a very disgusting pretzle or possibly just a ball of ooze.

While I deffinitely agree that cages should not be used in street cars, I do not believe that using a properly installed harness (especial like the schroth unit which at least has attempted to acomadate normal street use with inovation) puts the driver at any higher risk in a roll over accident. You are looking at too few variables with your comparisons as well, there has been no mention of the possability of seat failure (both in recline mechanism and anchoring) durring a roof collapse. Frankly every inovation in auto safety has had some drawbacks. Like laminated glass when it was first used and the deadly glass necklace effect. Or the multiple accounts of people that would have died if they were not thrown from they're vehicle from not wearing a seatbelt
Would I stop wearing my seatbelt just because one yahoo was sent flying from his car after it was hit by a train and lived because he didn't wear his? Hell no, I strap up everytime I get in the car, sometimes even when it isn't moving lol, and I know everytime I do that it will probably save my life and there is always that .1% chance that it may just mame or kill me. If I wanted to be completely safe I wouldn't get in the car in the first place

-Rant off

I did know that most auto manufacturers are looking to go 4 point as I had a chance to try out 3 models in seating bucks at NAIAS a few years back from Ford. Only one of them was comfortable however and it buckled in the center like most racing harnesses. They had one that was basically a double standard seatbelt, one on each side of you and it was a pita to buckle.

So basiclly I get to just live with the fact that my stock belts are loose on the lap and won't keep me in and the shoulder strangles me...suck.