Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on street
 

Mods, I would appreciate it if you made this sticky, we get a lot of questions on here about "how to install harnesses on my street car" or "how to install without a rollcage". Here's the gist:

4-point harnesses, 5-point harnesses, racing harnesses, or other non-stock type seatbelts are made to hold a driver in place during extreme driving situations as exist on the race track or autocross course, so that he doesn't have to use his strength to keep himself from sliding around, and can instead concentrate on driving.

They are also made to keep the driver safe in the event of an accident in a vehicle that is equipped with a rollcage. The driver's torso is kept mostly in one place by the harnesses (they do stretch a little bit normally and during an accident). This attempts to keep the drivers (helmet-clad) head from banging too hard against the "not-going-to-deflect-much-when-hit-by-a-head" rollcage. It also performs a number of other safety duties as well.

As far as safety is concerned, rollcages are made mostly for one thing, and that is, keeping the person inside the vehicle from being crushed. In racing vehicles, they stiffen up the chassis, improving handling, yadda, yadda.. that's not the point of this.. We're talking about safety here. When a vehicle gets in an accident, the rollcage (which is usually bolted or welded to the floor of the vehicle in some manner, will do its best to absorb some of the energy and prevent the foreign object (another race car, tire wall, whatever) from entering the vehicle and harming the person inside. It sometimes does a good job of this, but it doesn't offer as much safety as you would think. However, when a vehicle rolls, rollcages (if properly designed and installed) SHOULD prevent the vehicle's roof and other parts from collapsing in and crushing the occupant(s). This is where 5-point harnesses step in, and prevent the person from flying around and hitting random parts of the vehicle as the vehicle goes from shiny-side-up, to shiny-side-down, to shiny-side-sideways, to other random configurations of the "shiny side" (otherwise known as the "top" of the vehicle).

Street cars are a whole other story. When street cars get in accidents, there is not a rollcage to protect the occupants from being crushed inside. This is where the stock seatbelts shine. Since there is no hard metal rollcage to contact (usually a few inches from the drivers head), the passenger can move a little bit more inside the cabin. In event of a rollover, stock seatbelts allow the passenger(s) to slide sideways and "lower their profile" so that the collapsing roof doesn't squish them. If a person were to have 5-point harnesses (or their equivalent) in the vehicle, the harness would hold their torso up so that only their head could move (and in a very limited manner). When the roof comes collapsing down, the occupant(s) torsos are held stiffly upright, and the roof causes either a broken neck, crushed vertebrae, snapped nerves, broken back, paralyzation, or any other range of rather nasty things we don't want to happen to us.

As for rollcages, even HEAVILY padded rollcages are much more dangerous to occupants that aren't wearing helmets (aka on the street) than anything in the vehicle normally. It is strongly recommended that you not have a rollcage installed in a street vehicle unless you plan on driving around with a helmet all day long.

So in short, don't put 5-point harnesses or a rollcage in anything other than a race car, unless you intend on wearing a helmet all over the place, having a full rollcage installed with harnesses properly mounted to the cage, and a seat that is properly mounted as well. Anything less and you're asking for trouble.

Oh and here's my disclaimer for the politically correct, out to get something-for-nothing losers.. I take no responsibility for what is said here. If you get hurt, don't come yelling at me. I'm no expert, and you can't come sue me because your uncle's brother's cousin's former wife's daughter's neighbor's second-cousin's friend got a boo-boo from something I may have said. k?

Not really second gen specific, but I think we can let it sit here for a while

very nicely done... well put

-Markus

Hey, do you think theres a problems with putting a tube roll bar in the back, to prevent colapse??

Yo,

Barwick, I've been wearing the Schroth Rallye 4 harnesses in my daily driven Scirocco for approximately 7 years now.

I bought them for my autocrossing and open track days. As the SUV boom took off...I started wearing the harnesses full time to protect my 1900lb Scirocco (and myself!) against vehicles weighing twice to three times as much.

I also have doubts about the safety of my now 22 year old seats belts in my car. I've gone to the dealer and they don't have replacements any more. More than likely, these will tear in a serious accident.

I would rather put my life in newer belts, with more attachment points. Here is some interesting reading concerning Schroth harnessbelts:

http://www.autotech.com/schroth.htm

I just wanted to provide the other side of the argument...those German boys over at Schroth seem to know what they're talking about.

Here is a pic of the Schroth's in action:

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1939756

You can see the red Schroth pad on the passenger's right shoulder. We are both wearing the belts. The passenger was Nick Triantos, the 1997-98 GTI Cup champion. He had no problem strapping the belts on...even though a Toyota MR2 had gotten 8 and 8A all wrong and had rolled almost in front of us.

I would recommend the Schroths...and the Schroths only...to anyone who wants a 4 point harness for the street.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "The Mistress"
1981 Scirocco "The Wife"

RarestRX, that's a good point. What do you do in a rollover accident though? They don't mention that on the webpage. Of course 5-point or other harnesses are going to hold you still better than the stock seatbelts, I already said that. The problem lies if the car rolls without a rollcage. You're in much more danger then.

Good Post Barwick. I think he's talkign about a roll cage as opposed to a roll bar. A cage will have a bar ubove you on the sides and front and that is where you would most likely hit your head on. A simple roll bar behind the driver would be out of the way of the occupants head unless they were not buckled in and happened to go backwards above and behind the seat but would still offer some degree of stiffness and protection in the case of a rollover. So I don't see a problem with a bolt/weld in roll bar like you see here for the FC.


https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1941898

Re: Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on stre
 

while i agree with this, it seems to be very theoretical. it seems that the forces put on the passenger/driver's bodies would be too strong to allow them to move in the direction opposite the force, and into the lower profile position. i would imagine it's also quite difficult to stay in that position while being bounced around and smacking the ground over and over again. anyone else get what i'm saying?

So... rollbar w/ regular or 4/5 point belts on the street is okie dokie then?

excellent post...i have corbeau forza's and their street 4 point harnesses in my FC yet I only use them for auto X, the rare track day or (admittedly) pulling up in a car show or club meet. I very rarely use them on the street as they are just a pain to take on and off (loosen, fit, tighten etc...). also, you should note that it is much much safer to use EXISTING bolt holes on the frame when installing these harnesses. they are likely much stronger than anything you will drill & bolt in yourself. my shoulder straps extend into the hatch and bolt into 2 beefy 12 mm holes w/ thick stainless bolts/washers. u wouldn't want to get into an accident and have the belts rip out of their mounting points so I recommend these (our head mechanic explained this to me) as points to mount 4 pt. harnesses. I have pics if anyone is confused...as for the lap belts I used the stock locations and new, longer stronger bolts/washers and kept the stock belts intact.

Re: Re: Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on
 

I don't know if I follow what you're saying, but the fact that when a rollover happens, if you have 4 or 5 point harnesses on, you can NOT be moved in either direction, trust me, they're made so that you don't. So you're held upright, and aren't going anywhere. But with a regular seatbelt, you can move back and forth and all over the place, just not forward, and (usually) not out of the seat. You can get moved sideways and avoid being crushed during a rollover.

That might be safe, just a rollbar (like they have in convertibles). But don't take my word for it. If you're going to have harnesses with just a roll BAR, then I believe the seat must still be bolted to the roll BAR also, or the occupant can still easily hit the rollbar. Cage is another story, cages aren't safe no matter what without a helmet, and even then, they're still "ow".

Barwick: Nice post. Thanks for the effort.
I have always been a strong proponent of NOT using aftermarket harnesses on the street for all the reasons you noted. In addition a rollcaged vehicle should NOT be street driven unless you plan on wearing a helment. A bare head impacting a roll bar tube, even when padded, is going to do serious damage. Roll bars are typically ok so long as they are well behind the drivers headrest. But even then it is a calculated risk if you choose to drive a car with a roll bar on the street. My street driven FD does have a roll bar FWIW and it is padded.

RarestRX: I'd like to point out that your concern is valid but the implementation is NOT. SImply stating you ahve been using harnesses for 7 years as basis for stating it is ok is NOT. Ever been in an accident with the harnesses? If not you have no data to support the claim that what you or others are doing is a good thing. The issue of OE belt availability aside swapping one bad belt for another is not a good idea.

In general one reason for DOT not allowing aftermarket belts/harnesses is not in the belts themselves but in how the belts are attached. Anchor points, inadequately used brackets/washers/whatever, or even inappropriately sized material or material choice for that matter will simply mean that in a collision the belts will hold and the anchor will fail. Net result - injured occupant.

But going back to the original intent of Barwick post about not using harnesses on the street or for those that run them without a roll bar or cage I submit the following picture. I know the passenger personally. And although this happened at a track this could very easily happen anywhere and on any street. As the passenger my friend said he would be dead if he had been wearing a harness. Wearing the OE 3 point belts his body slid down under the belts during the roof impact, he whacked his knees pretty good on the dash, but that was the only injury he sustained. His **helmeted** head was pinned between the seatback and crushed roof.

So a word to the wise:
1) on the street stick with the OE 3 points
and
2) don't use a caged vehicle on the street

FWIW
Regards,
Crispy

http://www.negative-camber.org/crisp...mwrollover.jpg

Any harnesses that you can use the stock location, you're encouraged to do so, BUT ideally you're supposed to mount (some or all? I'm not sure) of the harnesses to the rollcage, as well as your seat. Especially considering cars have broken apart before, and if you're attached to the rollcage, you're probably still somewhat safe, whereas if you're attached (by seat and harnesses) to part of the car, you're in trouble.

well, without a cage you must mount any harness to some part of the car hehe i was trying to stress the point of using a factory bolt hole whenever possible bc they will be much stronger than anything yuo will drill into the car. the 2 holes I used are in the back of the hatch and are a part of the chassis. they aren't used (for whatever reason) but are DEEP and strong!! the lap belts use the stock locations w/ the harnesses w/ just longer bolts that came w/ the harness set. we tried mounting to the stock belt locations for the entire setup first but it looked wrong and the slack on the harness was WAY long. this looks much better and should be the safest way without a cage...these holes in back are drilled into the frame of the car it seems from the factory. thoughts? am i unsafe and i don't know it? hehe

Yo,

Here are some clips from the link I provided:

Unlike typical racing belts sometimes installed in street cars, Schroth (pronounced "shrote") Sport Shoulder Harnesses are easy to use, yet provide increased safety and stability for street performance driving. Schroth belts utilize the highest quality webbing and state-of-the-art buckles and adjusters instead of the clumsy, outdated types commonly used on most racing belts. Schroth Harnessbelts are the only shoulder harnesses produced anywhere that have been certified to meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards performance requirements (FMVSS 209).

This means they are the only street-legal sport shoulder harnesses available. In addition, all Schroth shoulder harnessbelts are tested and approved by Germany's TUV and meet current European ECE 16 standards.
In order to fully appreciate the level of technology that Schroth harnessbelts have reached, one must first understand two key concepts:
Submarining A technical term used to describe the effect that occurs when an individual slides out from beneath their lap-belt in a head-on collision.
HIC Head Injury Criteria; defined by FMVSS. Calculated by applying an integral formula to the change in deceleration of the human head in a collision.

Submarining can occur with all types of safetybelts in a head-on collision, which accounts for about 60% of all accidents. The phenomena of submarining can actually be worsened when shoulder harnesses are used (the shoulder belt has a tendency to "pull up" on the lap-belt in a head-on).

With a typical poorly adjusted lap/shoulder belt configuration during impact, the head of the individual is subjected to high forward acceleration. This can result in severe head, brain, and spinal cord injuries. Because Submarining and high speed head acceleration have been determined to be mortally dangerous, Schroth has developed the asm system.

asm is an acronym derived from the initials of anti-submarining. The asm system developed by Schroth utilizes the inherent stretch characteristics of the belt material and incorporates a unique patented energy conversion device located on the inside shoulder belt. The danger of Submarining is minimized using the Schroth asm system.

Furthermore, the high load stresses experienced with seat belts in the head and neck area during a head-on collision (the HIC comparison values) are reduced up to 50%, to a biomechanically acceptable level.

This picture shows the correct installation and use of Schroth Harnessbelts in a Golf 2. This car body is one of Schroth's test chassis used to simulate head-on collisions at 50Km/h (31mph). Doors and other components not required for the evaluation have been removed. The Driver is wearing a Rallye 3. The passenger is wearing a Rallye 4.

SCHROTH Harnessbelts offer the highest quality. These belts, when installed and used according to the instructions attached, and for its expressed purpose, depending upon the type and severity of the accident, should reduce or prevent injury. Safety belts are tested using a dummy weighing 75kg in a simulated head-on collision at 50Km/h (31mph) impact speed against a fixed barrier, according to ECE-R 16.04 standard. US models are tested in accordance with US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS 209), except paragraph S4.6 (full-scale body crashes, described in US-FMVSS 208).

[End]

It appears to me that they've done crash tests to prove that the belts are safe to use in automobiles. It looks to me that they have hard data that proves that their belts do increase safety...especially in a head on collision.

Should I worry about rolling my car, having the roof collapsing and breaking my neck because I'm firmly held upright in my Schroths? I'm not going to. The ASM system actually lenghtens one of the shoulder belts after impact, so if I need to wiggle around I'm sure I'll be able to.

It's worth it to /me/ that I will have more protection in most street accidents: side swipe, rear end, head on, t-bone...vs. what I consider an extremely rare occurance: the roll over.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "Gonna wear 'em right now!"

well, u take a risk either way simply by driving :) i appreciate this thread though and the fact that the mods are keeping it here for a bit. I will attach some pics later so you can all see how I mounted the set and our SCCA friend can let us know what he thinks hehe on our Z we took the stock belts out completely but we do have a cage where the shoulder belts are mounted in back (rarely driven on the street...besides, it doesn't have a bumper support up front anymore thanks to the new (I.E. PITA) nissan motorsport nose. so the big FMIC and our thick thick TIG'd brackets to the frame are the new support hehe).

i wonder how the schroths differ from corbeau, sparco etc... in terms of actual DESIGN. generally the other harness makers don't have DOT approval bc it costs too much $$ great info kev!!

At a PCA Event several years ago, the late model 911 in front of me overcompensated and rolled. The car did not have a Cage, but did have a Belt bar and aftermarket harnesses. The Instructor refused to go out on the track with the 4 point harnesses and INSISTED that the stock belts be worn. This simple act saved their lives/serious injury; due to the above stated reason of being able to slide in the seat when the roof caved in. John

When properly installed
In what vehicle and how were those belts installed. I'd place good money your installation isn't the same.

To reiterate, when properly installed.

How fast can you "wriggle?" I bet not as fast as that roof collapses when you land on the roof.

I defer again to the above note regarding adequate anchorages and mounting hardware. The issue remains debateable.

Regards,
Crispy
- stirring up trouble ;)

my brother flipped/rolled his S2000 w/ the top down a couple years back. factory roll bar saved him...the car landed on it's roof and he crawled out sitting bloddied on the side of the road for 15 minutes before someone stopped. stock belts obviously...OEM does do the job :) I wonder if any of these harness makers have anything noted on their websites...

great thread, lets keep it coming!!

I'll drive (be it rarely) with my cage on the street, and have both 5 point Sparco camlock harnesses and the original belts, each to do their own duty. The odds of me driving like a friggin' idiot to the point I flip my car are so remote that I could care less what anyone says I should do.

Schroth in my experience are not regarded as the finest quality available but are average. Often these are found in lapping club cars, not used in even moderate levels of professional motorsports.

1.Willans
2.TRW/Sabelt aka Sparco
3.MOMO
4.Simpson
5.Schroth

Schroths I believe are the only manufacturer of Harness and perhaps Willans that offer a D.O.T. approved set up. Of course, as mentioned before in many previous threads, do not use any type of harness under any conditions without rollover protection.

Quote:
"Any harnesses that you can use the stock location, you're encouraged to do so, BUT ideally you're supposed to mount (some or all? I'm not sure) of the harnesses to the rollcage, as well as your seat. Especially considering cars have broken apart before, and if you're attached to the rollcage, you're probably still somewhat safe, whereas if you're attached (by seat and harnesses) to part of the car, you're in trouble."

What? lol

Re: Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on street
 

You do bring up some valid points but id have to disagree about rollcage on a street car with proper harness and seats.
Trying telling forum member Rutt this same thing. His roll cage pretty much saved his life when a drunk driver ran a red light and smashed his Integra from the drivers side door. Without the roll cage, more then likely he would have died or sustained heavy injuries.

Nismo, there are always exceptions to every rule. The odds are in your favor not wearing 5 points and rollcages on the street.

They are each intended as part of a SAFETY SYSTEM, which you are not wearing on the street. Take away a part of the system and it doesn't work as intended.

Rollcage + Properly mounted harness+ Helmet + padding and braces = safe RACING set-up

Rollcage + harness = incomplete system

http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/c...s/restinfo.asp

ANSWERS TO COMMON QUESTIONS ABOUT RESTRAINT SYSTEMS


Q: Why does't Simpson stock belts and restraint systems?
A: Every system is made when ordered to insure a current SFI date.


Q: How often should I reweb my belts or have my belts inspected?
A: Some Sanctioning Bodies require the belts or system be rewebbed two years after the date stamped on the SFI tag. However, a belt that is fraying, been exposed to harmful chemicals or the environment may need to be rewebbed sooner. Consult your Sanctioning Body for more information. In any event other than normal use, do not use the system again. Even if it appears OK. Return to Simpson for inspection. Simpson will inspect and reweb only Simpson Products.


Q: What is the advantage to "Pull-up" or "Pull-down" type belts?
A: Which one you use is a matter of personal preference and the equipment you're using. For example, does the belt go through the seat? Will you adjust it, or someone on the crew? What hardware works best with your set-up? Bolt-in, Clip-in, or Wrap-around? The "Pull-ups" are 62" in length. The "Pull-downs" are 52" in length.


Q: Are Simpson Restraint Systems DOT (Department of Transportation) approved?
A: No. Simpson Systems are SFI approved and dated.

I actually just spoke with a rep from Corbeau who answered my e-mail very promptly...while their stuff is not DOT approved he cannot make bold statements like "4 pts are fine on the street" etc... but he did make some valid points. talk to someone about airbags and the conversation may sway...some people are for them, some are against them. speak to someone who haas lost a loved one of suffered serious injury from an airbag and they will be inclined not to advertise them (so to speak). He did tell me installation was the key...finding proper mounting points and using stock locations/holes in the chassis is the first step and unfortunately many times people prepare their installations in terms of what is fastest and easiest rather than what is safest and strongest. though not exactly pearls of wisdom I appreciate his response and customer service...he could have just as easily not responded at all or viewed our thread. though rollovers in these cars are rare (hey, they aren't SUV's) I still use my OEMs 95% of the time on the street just bc it's easier to use hehe a keen eye and defensive driving tactics are important too!!

I wouldn't use then with just a roll bar. The bar is SUPPOSED to help the roof from caving in but since it's just a bar and not a cage the front half will still crush in to an extent. Bar's will help some but they are not meant to take a high speed roll and keep the occupants safe inside. A low speed roll it would help alot and they look cool but i wouldn't count on em to protect you like a full cage would so NO, i wounldn't recommed using a harness with just a roll bar unless it's just for looks and you use the factory belts for yourself.

Yo,


Here is my setup with the Rallye 4's:

http://www.autotech.com/schrothgolf.JPG

The anchor points for the back straps are my original OEM factory lap belt mounting points. Use the provided Grade 8 bolts and voila! Instant 4 point belts. The right side anchor point is also in the factory location, also with a Grade 8 bolts. The left anchor point is the OEM seatbelt mounting point at well.

Using factory chassis hardpoints with Grade 8 bolts...I feel very secure in Schroth's. Again, I only recommend Schroth's because they have been TUV approved and can be sold legally here. Any other Sabelt, TSW, Simpson, blah blah blah camlock system cannot be used on the street since they are strictly a race application...while the Schroth's are strictly a street application. Schroth makes racing harnesses as well, 6 point camlocks, etc. The amount of time, effort and research that they've done gives me absolute confidence in their product.

I stake my life on it.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "Not to mention the look on the cop's face when he pulls you over...and you've got them on. Priceless!"

How far away would a roll cage have to be from your head and not worry about hitting it? Cuz It seems if a cage was pretty tight up against the metal of the car that you wouldn't hit it.

it must tak alot to crush the top of an rx-7 in street driving cuz my parts car was rolled and setting upsidedown and it did not to to much damage. also i think its a better idea to have a harness than not because there are not as many rollover as t-bones front end and rear end collisions. if you where t-boned then your stock seat belt helps you none your head goes flying into the window next to you and with a harness you would not his the side. and in front end and rear end collisions you would be held in much better and ther would be a next to none chance that you would hit your head on the stearing wheel or winsheald. also if you where hit and started spinning you would be trown to eather side and with harnesses it wouldnot happen. i think its better to have it than not and it your really worried then get a rear roll cage where you cannot hit it.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1901881
as you can see in the pic of my parts car if you had a harness you would not have been hurt. and if you didnt you could hit your head on the roof while rolling or go forward and hit the part that got bent down, i say a harness is better than none

What the hell is with you guys. Someone tells you don't do something, and you want to find 50 thousand excuses why you can.

You want to run harnesses on the street, fine. Go ahead.

Now, some 16 year old kid reads your message, goes out with his friends and dies when he flips his car 4 times over the interstate.

How in the hell are you going to feel about that?

You don't agree, fine. You want to take the risks yourselves, fine. But the reasons Barwick posted are 100% valid.

Harnesses without a cage leaves your body no where to go if the structure of the car fails. Is that likely in an average street incident, no, it's not.

Now ask yourself WHY YOU WANT HARNESSES. To look cool? Ok, the Schroth are DOT legal, sounds like they designed a way to allow you to slide out in a rollover, that sound like the way to go in that regard.

Or do you want to have a better hold in your seat. You like to go canyon carving or hard street driving. Suddenly, the odds of having a big rollover accident are a hell of a lot greater.

A cage without a helmet is begging for a smashed skull in a side impact collison.

Anyway, enough preaching.

Later.

PaulC

Oh, J200pruf, my cage is as tight as I can get it against the A pillar, I cut and rewelded the floorpan to move my seat inboard another 2 inches, and still, with a helmet on, I bounce my head on the rollcage in hard transitions, and definitely hit it in my rollover.

PaulC

I agree with the race car folks in this thread. Hey Paul, how much performance gain did your Koseis give you, being 4lbs lighter per wheel than the baloney slicers? Shave any seconds off you times?

Re: Re: Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on stre
 

i know what you're saying, and until i tested it in my computer chair, i agreed with you. the way i tested it was that i flipped my chair sideways, and like you said, my body is trying to go the opposite direction of the car. but once my chair (or the car's side, continuing its roll) hits the ground, you keep going down too. And if the car keeps rolling around, the side that is on the ground is going to lift up, but your body isn't (with normal seatbelt) and bam, your head hits the side. i wouldn't suggest testing this in your chair though, i'm a professional idiot.

damn dude settle down shit, what the hell im sayin it that using a harness caould increase your chances in living in a front end, rear end and t-bone colision. i never say if it flipped over you couldnt hurt or kill yourself im saying that i think in a majority of suff that can happen the roof totaly caving in is not as likely as all the other stuff that can happen while driving where a harnes could help

Accually, if your using harnesses in a car without a roll bar, the top straps are probably mounted at a severe angle... in which case even a simple front end collision could cause massive back/spine damage as your spine compresses instead of your chest-

??? what dude do you know what your talking about really that makes no sence

Yo,

From the Schroth website:

SCHROTH Safety Products GmbH (formerly Carl F. SCHROTH GmbH), a German corporation, was founded in 1946. In 1954, SCHROTH became the first German manufacturer of seat harnesses for the automotive market. In the mid '70s, SCHROTH started to concentrate on the restraint systems market and has become the world's largest manufacturer of harness systems.

SCHROTH Safety Products GmbH, headquartered in Arnsberg, Germany, together with SCHROTH Safety Products Corp., the company's Florida-based U.S. subsidiary, operating directly and through its worldwide distributor network currently manufactures and supplies in excess of 100,000 harnesses per year.

SCHROTH Safety Products unswervingly believes in and permanently focuses on its slogan "Safety through Technology".

The company uses state-of-the-art design methodologies and highly advanced research-and-development tools such as accredited dynamic sled facilities in Europe and the U.S. This commitment ensure that SCHROTH harnesses not only offer the best possible safety and survival performance, but also meet the human needs of comfort and ease of operation. Typically, SCHROTH will run up to 30 development crash tests in any given year to continuously improve technology for the aviation and automobile industries.

Consistent manufacturing quality is ensured by the implementation of monitoring processes such as Statistical Process Control (SPC) and, where appropriate, 100% inspection of incoming and outgoing products.

[End].

I'm not trying to start shit...just when I hear, "Thems things is gonna kills you!" on a good product that I've been using for 7 years...you better be able to prove it to me.

Schroth has been doing this for 49 years. It employs engineers specifically to design and test harnesses for the street. They crash cars to test them. Their product is both DOT and TUV approved.

I went to Google, put in:

schroth rollover fatality
schroth rollover fatalities
schroth fatalities

I got zilch.

[Edit]: For giggles, I went to VWVortex, the largest VW Forum around. Mostly Schroth's are used in VW's...you know, the German thang. I put in:

schroth rollover
schroth fatality

Zilch again, in both recent and archived threads.

[Edit]

Again, I'm not trying to start shit with anyone...just providing information on a product that I believe in.

If you are thinking about harnesses for the street, make sure they're Schroth and check their PDF to make sure your seat style is approved. IMHO, I think they are a great way to increase the survivability of the majority of real world street accidents...especially if you have an older car with ailing belts.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "My 2 bits."

nearly everyone here is making a valid point. the hard part is deciding which side you want to choose. while i want to have a firmer hold in the seat for autox'ing and open track days, i don't want to guaruntee a broken neck if i roll. i wouldn't wear them on the street anyway, even if i was canyon carving, now that this info has been brought to my attention.

jasonw, thanks for your superb test of my theory. i'm glad you proved it wrong because it was just a theory anyway.

Barwick, you say, "how fast can you wriggle," but with stock seatbelts you still have to wriggle. maybe not as much, but the point of the schroth harness is to become as close to OEM (meaning a 3-point) during a roll as possible, meaning you'd have to go through a similar effort to get out of harms way. bouncing around like that doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me though. both choices present large levels of danger to the passenger.

the roll bar+helmet+harness seems to be the best combo for safety on the street (minus the helmet) and track. you could wear your harness while driving hard, and if you roll, the bar is there to protect you, but you won't have to worry about your head if you don't have a helmet on. now, if only someone could think something up to prevent those damn SUV's from plowing the passenger compartments into oblivion.

i've got a problem no matter how you look at it. my head easily hits the inside lip of the sunroof or the doorjam when i hit a decent sized bump with the automatic belt and the lap belt on. so lets just do our best to strap ourselves in with whatever we prefer and hope that we don't crash into shit or go wildly out of control :D

i'm currently trying to find a racing seat that will mount me lower in the car, i don't like to hit my head going over potholes :(

Thanks for the reply Paul cuz looking at your car (and sitting in mine) made me think that that was possilbe, but now that you tell me that it isn't.
Are we still decided that a rollbar that has a cage in the back is still bad on the street?

HEHE yes a car with full cage and no helmet on the head is like a rolling death trap. The best ones are the ones I see on ricer Hondas where the bar is right around the driver and passengers temple and forehead. Well if you are 4foot nothing like the ricers than I guess is it ok.

RX7blazin,
If you know how to install a harness properly you know exactly what he's talking about. Specifically, the shoulder straps of a harness system should be mounted 4 inches below the shoulder line and form an angle of 45deg from shoulder to mounting point. If the straps are mounted at an angle greater than 45deg or mounted more than 4 inches below the shoulder line (as in to the floor behind the seat - which I've seen all to often) in a rear end or frontal collision the forward motion of the chest when pushing on the harnesses will cause the body position to be pushed down into the seat thereby compressing the spine and causing severe spinal injury.
Regards,
Crispy
- love this thread, Darwins theory at it's finest ;)

RarestRX: You're right, they're SAFE belts, but in event of a rollover, what happens to you? That is why I said they're unsafe without a rollcage. You will get crushed. Do what you want, but don't try to convince some other guy that they're safe, they're not.

Exactly. I had a race seat that the holes for the harnesses were WAY too low for safety. The shoulder harnesses (before we fixed them) went over my shoulders and then down about 2 inches or so through the holes, and then to the mounting point on the rollcage. If I were to get into an accident, I would have pushed forward on them, which would demand "slack" from the harnesses, and since there wasn't any more "slack" to come out of them, they would try to make the shortest path between the two mounting points, and the "hump" that my shoulders made (by going up and over them, then back down) isn't a very straight line. The harnesses would have pressed down on my shoulders and probably would have damaged my spine. Not happy. I ended up cutting two holes for the harnesses just about level with my shoulders.

barwick so your saying these haarnesses are not safe??? look id say there safer than stock because you are eliminating what a stock belt doesnt do effcently like any collisions causing you to fly sideways therfor hitting your head on a windoow or door still also the belts dont kick in right away causing you to lurge forward then suddeny stop cuasing wiplash, and also on that same point it could make you hit the stearing wheel or window. so basicly your inreasing your chances of living in the majority of accedents, but increasing your risk that in an unlikly event your whole roof comes down on your head you could not get out of the way. and looking the other way if you went from a harness to a stock seatbelt your increasing your odds of being hurt in a side impact, spin around, frontal and rear collosion instead of just a increasing your odds of being hurt in juat a rollover

all good points, but like i said boys...car accidents by definition are dangerous and people WILL get hurt in them. best bet for safety? buy a new car and ditch these 15 yr old tin cans hehe drive safe on the street w/ your FC and be smart @ the track in terms of not going beyond your limits. i'm not advocating one vs. another but car accidents are going to hurt people. safe smart drivers is the best defense!!

Yo,

Prove that I will get crushed in a rollover with properly installed Schroth belts. Show me your crash test data supporting that. What are your credentials? Do you have a engineering degree? Are you a doctor?

I'm sorry, but I have more faith in a professional company who's reputation is based on safety and has been selling these belts for almost 50 years than what a layman "thinks" will happen in a theoretical rollover situation.

I just don't buy it...but feel free to post any newspaper articles, photos, or obituaries of anyone who has been killed in a rollover accident while wearing Schroth harnessbelts on the street. Until then, I'm still wearin' my Schroth's.

Rx-7Blazin brings up another good point, why get rid of a proven product that increases safety because it "might" cause injury in one of the rarest accidents out there?

That's like saying you're better off with your airplane's seat cushion as opposed to a true life preserver...even though:

The life preserver is easier to stay in.
Provides more support under your arms.
And in the majority of situations you'll find yourself in...better than the seat cushion...

...except when you are hit with a 50' Tsunami and turned upside...where you "might" drown.

Again, should you get rid of a proven safety system, or warn people away from it since it "might" fail in a freak accident?

I'm still not sold.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "Being the resident Forum cynic since 2000."

^^nicely sayd^^
sure driving smart will save lives but you cant make everyone drive smart, makin that statement totaly bogus. you can be sitting there doing nothing and still get rammed by some idiot who doesnt know how to drive you never know when your gonna get in a wreak its not always your faul if you get in a wreak. sometimes there is nothing you can do but sit there and watch whats about to happen. i would rather feel safe with a harness knowing that the majority of whats going to happen to you you will have a better chance of not injuring yourself. ill consider not buying a harness if i am driving an suv cuz then i can worry about rolling over. come on we drive sports cars they have a low roll over rate. and yes you can still roll one going off an incline on the side of the road but most of the time your car is just gonna slide and not roll over

RarestRX, do you think I just formulated these opinions on my own? Scorororoioiuth or whatever belts are just another belt. They're nothing super special, they're 4-point belts. If you've got two harnesses going over your shoulders (one on each side) the forces that would normally push you sideways in a rollover will not be able to push you sideways, and the roof if it collapses will hit your head and probably hurt your neck and spine, maybe just killing you outright.

Yes there are exceptions, no I'm not going to search the internet to find someone who died from having harnesses instead of a regular belt without a rollcage. You seem hellbent on debating the fact that you are *unsafe* in a rollover while wearing harnesses without a rollcage. This fact is not debatable, it's been shown by multiple people who've lived as a result of wearing a regular seatbelt instead of harnesses. Numerous race car drivers and race groups say the same thing. It's not up for debate, if you want to do it, I really don't care, but don't go telling some young kid that it's safe because your scoririhafdiutqwertyourth belts are some sort of super belt, because they'll do the same thing in a rollover.

RarestRX - I would check ur belt instructions again.. If ur harness is installed the way it shows in that picture your shoulders and spine would be crushed.. They arent susposted to be mounted greater than like a 30* angle i believe.


Alright... If you have a roll cage/roll bar and a harness i believe there is no more risk than a regular oem belt and the things around the car. There is always a certain risk you must accept every time you go out on the road.. Now why you are really concerned about a 7 rolling i really dont know. The chances of that happening are about the same as you gettin struck by lightning. There are always exceptions to everything. Nothing works perfectly and nothing ever will. You put a cage and a harness in your car you accept w/e happens to you b/c of the mods. you have done.

On a side note though.. Barwick, I dont see where anyone here has said anything about a harness w/o a cage/bar.. So if someone comes on here and thinks its alright to run a harness w/o either then no one here is at fault for making them think that it is alright.

Freaky,
First item: 45deg is a recommended angle. Got my data from the instructions listed on the Simpson website.

Second item: I've personally seen 4 rolled over FDs. two from the track and 2 from the street. And from speeds as low as 30mph. It doesn't take much to flip a car if it hits a curb sideways. Almost as if it happens in slow motion. Even in a car with a CofG as low as an FD.

Third item: As for using a harness without a roll bar/cage check some of the previous posts. In fact the original post from barwick is citing exactly this.

For Barwick: let the ignorant remain ignorant. Some people will never be convinced. Some people to this day don't even wear the OE seatbelts because they believe if they drive off a bridge they will drown because they will be unable to release the belts in time. The same agument in principle.

Regards,
Crispy

NO ONE IS SAYING ITS SAFER IN A ROLL OVER TO HAVE A HARNESS WITHOUT A ROLL CAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we are saying that harnesses can give you a better chance of not being hurt or killed in the majority of accedents. do you get what im saying or no?? I never personaly sayd that the percentage of you being hurt in a roll over with a harness was less, not once yall are not understanding what people are trying to say.