WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Hey guys, I'm trying to get my rebuild started, i've gone through pretty much everything i can think of, but it will only crank, never turn over, it doesn't even sound like it's trying to combust.. and the spark plugs don't have any fuel smell when i pull them.
Here's what i've tried:
-Pulling a fuel line to make sure i've got gas.. Both of us ended up covered in gas... check.
-made sure there was oil in the chambers.. the plugs are slightly wet with it, and if you stick your finger in the hole, it has a bit of oil on it..
-Replaced the EGI main relay, mine was rusted and i'm assuming was not working, so i mocked one up today, and it appears to be working fine.
-checked all the fuses, even jumpered over a few of the main ones just to be sure... everything keeps acting this way.

When i put a stethascope on the injectors, i could not hear a "click" or anything on them, so i'm thinking that maybe none of my injectors are pumping fuel in... any good ideas to check? It will NOT attempt to start at all, so whatever is happening is taking out the whole injector array, apparently.

sorry about the long post, but it would be quite helpful to solve this problem...

thanks!
~Wonko The Sane

WAYNE88N/A

get some jumper wires long enough to go from the battery to the primary injectors, pull the plug off of the injector, and apply the 12vdc to the injector, positive lead on the left contact....hear any clicking? if you do, it's not your injectors (unless they're clogged with rust & such). also check the harness ground, 6" from the aft injector position...you can rig up a low-pressure injector "tester" fairly easily, using a car battery as a power source & some tubing that'll fit the injector boss (if you think they're not flowing)

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I'll do that after dinner, thanks!

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

the injectors are certainly working (the good news), i can't find the ground you're talking about though. Is it underneath the throttlebody?

WAYNE88N/A

yep, on top of the rear rotor or side housing (on an S4)

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

and does it have any special connector? Like a green cased slot connector or something?

WAYNE88N/A

nope, just a ring terminal...be sure to clean the area UNDER the bracket also, since that junction provides the continuity for the ground

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I think you pointed me in the right direction, although i'm afraid the ground is broken in the wiring harness. Tomorrow i'm going to rip it apart.. we spent the past two hours just playing with that ground, so i'm pretty sure it's not hte ground itself, it's somewhere between that and the injectors.. thanks for your help

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

stupid form error leading me to belive that my post was not, in fact, posted... ignore the following two..

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I think you pointed me in the right direction, although i'm afraid the ground is broken in the wiring harness. Tomorrow i'm going to rip it apart.. we spent the past two hours just playing with that ground, so i'm pretty sure it's not hte ground itself, it's somewhere between that and the injectors.. thanks for your help

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I think you pointed me in the right direction, although i'm afraid the ground is broken in the wiring harness. Tomorrow i'm going to rip it apart.. we spent the past two hours just playing with that ground, so i'm pretty sure it's not hte ground itself, it's somewhere between that and the injectors.. thanks for your help

WAYNE88N/A

you know, I'm surprised no one has said anything yet, but I'm looking at the FSM wiring diagram here, and it looks like the injectors are grounded through the ECU, not that engine ground...of course, the ECU uses that ground through pins 2R,3A, and 3G, so it still might be solely for the injectors (and just the fact the ECU uses it means it needs to be a GOOD ground)...it's also the ground for the AFM door switch...

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Today's findings:

Following Wayne88N/A's advice, I pulled off the throttle body and ECU. From there i started testing the continuity between the ECU side injector plug and the EGI Main Relay. All 4 injectors returned a solid 7.95-8.2 Ohm, so if something is wrong, it's wrong with all of them. they all returned good continuity, so I believe that circuit is complete, and since I haven't removed the ECU before, I'm assuming it's grounded propery (if it grounds to chassis), as there is no rust at all.

I'm fairly certain that one igniter/coil is faulty, but i believe that the engine should still at least sound/smell like there's fuel in there and that one rotor is trying to burn it..

Current Thoughts:
None. I am completely lost now, what has kept your injectors from firing? Any rotor heads around Williamsport, PA want to come and check it out with me?

Shoot anything you can think of at me. We tried everything I know of, including regrounding engine(To chassis), regrounding engine (to - on battery), prayers, sacrifices, curse words, and jumping up and down and hooting excitedly. Nothing appeased the rotary god...

MrFuzzy

iTrader: (1)

You get spark?

WAYNE88N/A

if you already have access to the ECU, see if there is a 12v signal at pins 3C and 3E to ground while cranking it... those are the two primary injectors (S4)...are you sure the injectors aren't clogged? the main relay "clicks" when the key is turned? fuel filter installed correctly (some have one-way check valves internally)?

MrFuzzy

iTrader: (1)

if you dont get spark it might be the ecu

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I have spark on 3 out of 4 coils, so i'm thinking it should at least attempt toturn over. I'm pretty sure that all 4 injectors wouldn't suddenly become clogged... although they have been sitting for a few months... i will ground out those pins either tomorow or friday, and also check the flow through them like you suggested above. thanks for staying with me, Wayne!

mazda7

iTrader: (1)

I just had a similiar problem after changing out my secondary injectors on my TII. May car had sat for about 1 month with low tank of gas. I could hear the injectors firing and when I pulled the full line there was gas. However, the gas was just siphoning from the tank, not being pumped. Be sure your fuel pump is actually pumping. I ended up disconecting the pump and connecting a 12v starter box to it. Turns out the pump was stuck due to corrosion/moisture. The extra amps from the starter box freed it up and it began working.

mazda7

iTrader: (1)

I just had a similiar problem after changing out my secondary injectors on my TII. May car had sat for about 1 month with low tank of gas. I could hear the injectors firing and when I pulled the full line there was gas. However, the gas was just siphoning from the tank, not being pumped. Be sure your fuel pump is actually pumping. I ended up disconecting the pump and connecting a 12v starter box to it. Turns out the pump was stuck due to corrosion/moisture. The extra amps from the starter box freed it up and it began working.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Mazda7 - I know i have fuel, as the rails/lines are definatly pressurized, my problem is that the injectors are not clicking at all when i'm cranking. the only way i can get them to click is to directly connect them to 12v, Good idea, though

WAYNE88N/A

1) you only have 3 coils- are you talking 3 out of 4 WIRES?
2) all 4 injectors don't have to be clogged- you're only using two to start the car...trust me, I've been there- you only need one primary to be clogged to give you hell trying to start, and when it does, it'll have the symptoms of a blown engine
3) I know it's a PITA, but to eliminate the primaries as suspects, you're gonna have to pull 'em and see if they flow with the 12v on 'em- like I said, been there, done that- 3 straight days with breaks for food & sleep troubleshooting the rest of the car, because I convinced myself that it couldn't be the injectors (which had set in Santiago's car for God knows how long)

HAILERS

The number on problem on jap rebuilds is that the fuel rails are opposite the American ones. In other words the fuel lines at the engine might be crossed. They won't be the same as your original engine. If its the original engine, the line from the fuel filter goes to the front pipe on the engine.

Just buy a can of starter fluid and spray for about two seconds into the snorkel prior to the AFM and then try to start the car. If it fires for a moment .....then you have a fuel problem. If it does not fire ...it's another problem like timing or electrical.

ABout the grounds for the ECU. They are on a ring terminal on top of the engine. The rear rotor housing. Located a touch to left of centerline. There is no need to remove anything to check them out. Just get your meter on the small plug of the ECU and ohm out the pins 3A and 3G and then go the middle plug and ring out pin 2R. I'm talking about the plug side NOT the ECU. They should ohm out less than .6 ohms or thereabouts.

HAILERS

The number one problem on jap rebuilds is that the fuel rails are opposite the American ones. In other words the fuel lines at the engine might be crossed. They won't be the same as your original engine. If its the original engine, the line from the fuel filter goes to the front pipe on the engine.

Just buy a can of starter fluid and spray for about two seconds into the snorkel prior to the AFM and then try to start the car. If it fires for a moment .....then you have a fuel problem. If it does not fire ...it's another problem like timing or electrical.

ABout the grounds for the ECU. They are on a ring terminal on top of the engine. The rear rotor housing. Located a touch to left of centerline. There is no need to remove anything to check them out. Just get your meter on the small plug of the ECU and ohm out the pins 3A and 3G and then go the middle plug and ring out pin 2R. I'm talking about the plug side NOT the ECU. They should ohm out less than .6 ohms or thereabouts

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Wayne - no, i have all wires/plugs, but i can't get spark out of one of the coils. i'll pull the lower rail as soon as I get the chance and test the primary injectors. I think the one coil that is blown is for a primary injector though (it's the furthest one back, towards the firewall).
And since you brought it up, only the primaries fire on crank? because i've been using the stethascope on the secondaries... so my hypothosis that the injectors aren't firing may be completely wrong...

Hailers - you may be on to something about the fuel lines, as stupid as it sounds, i may have them reversed.. I wrote down where they connect to before i disconnected them, but the book had opposite.. I think i assumed i was wrong, and connected them per book's orders. I wonder if i do have a jspec?
I think the ground is good, as wayne suggested that earlier, so i spent about 3 hours playing with that very ground, and I think from that to chassis is not even noticible resistance. I'll check to the ECU's wiring harness as soon as I get a chance.
I think the fuel lines are right, any other ways to tell if i have a Jspec?

HAILERS

Sorry, I've never seen a jspec engine .......but I've seen enough posts on this site concerning jspec problems with the reversed fuel rails that , that issue comes to ming.

Just take the ten minutes out to swap the two hoses and have a go at it. I think to identify the jspec from the American would require removal of the upper intake to see which way the feed and return lines are running. Theres a picture in the fsm that shows the routing of the fuel in an USA car. There is also somewhere on this site the routing of the japspec engine.. somewhere.