Check out this 20B .. FC 4WD
10-19-05, 04:28 PM
#28
resU deretsigeR
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Doesn't look to me like it would matter what he'd run in the 1/4, 'cause that's not what they built it for. How many funny cars, top fuel cars need 4wd for runnin' the 1/4?
Point being, this car was meant to rally race, not run 1/4 miles.
Point being, this car was meant to rally race, not run 1/4 miles.
10-19-05, 04:30 PM
#29
AFA the weight distribution goes i'm pretty sure this is a drag car so he probably doesn't give a damn . . . Also there's a little blurb in option 2, inside a drag racing article/showcase.
edit ^^^^ maybe i'm wrong then
edit ^^^^ maybe i'm wrong then
Last edited by twilight slide; 10-19-05 at 04:35 PM.
10-19-05, 05:43 PM
#31
I'll bet they used a Mazda drivetrain.
Remember the MPV? The big van?
I've seen those used on 4wd FCs quite frequently. Gotta modify the subframe and a few other things to accept the big transfer case and driveshaft, but its a lot easier than you would think.
Remember the MPV? The big van?
I've seen those used on 4wd FCs quite frequently. Gotta modify the subframe and a few other things to accept the big transfer case and driveshaft, but its a lot easier than you would think.
10-19-05, 08:10 PM
#32
They could have used an Audi drivtrain. There was a 4wd 2nd gen with an Audi drivtrain at Sevenstock a few years ago. Could find pictures of it in this forum with a simple search I'm sure.
That 20b conversion looks like fun, but when people bitch about the weight distribution, that could be easily corrected with ballast weight towards the rear.
What is really in question, is the polar moment of inertia. There is no correcting that with the 20b that far forward, not to mention the extra 6 inches of motor
The guy from Argentinia with the 2 rotor awd conversion tried correcting the polar moment in his car by hacking off about 6" from the front and rear of the body that hung out beyond the front and rear tires.
That 20b conversion looks like fun, but when people bitch about the weight distribution, that could be easily corrected with ballast weight towards the rear.
What is really in question, is the polar moment of inertia. There is no correcting that with the 20b that far forward, not to mention the extra 6 inches of motor
The guy from Argentinia with the 2 rotor awd conversion tried correcting the polar moment in his car by hacking off about 6" from the front and rear of the body that hung out beyond the front and rear tires.
10-19-05, 09:53 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by fcdrifter13
.
Now for the Trans Mission, It could be from a Starion AWD that would make the ralli art sticke correct. Although this transmission is extremly heavy. You guys with eclispse and evo therory arnt think back far enough. Stupid 90s modle car thinkers. The Starion was the first car to carry the Ralli Art badge back in 83 I think not for sure though. The starion AWD rally transmission has a shorter style than the subaru. But is is heavyier.
Now for the Trans Mission, It could be from a Starion AWD that would make the ralli art sticke correct. Although this transmission is extremly heavy. You guys with eclispse and evo therory arnt think back far enough. Stupid 90s modle car thinkers. The Starion was the first car to carry the Ralli Art badge back in 83 I think not for sure though. The starion AWD rally transmission has a shorter style than the subaru. But is is heavyier.
10-19-05, 11:22 PM
#36
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Dang. I bet it's freaking FAST right off the line and out of the corners though. Even if it handles like poo because of the weight distribution, the extra grip from AWD and the engine power makes up for it.
10-20-05, 01:14 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by drivinggodspeed
how many of you knew that Steve Millen's little brother Reiss Millen (prob not spelled right) pronounced "rize" won the pike's peak uphill race outright sometime during the 90's with an awd 20b fc...
Originally Posted by fcdrifter13
Hmm my thnking on wiegh distribution. This can be corrected by adjusting the coilovers.
10-20-05, 01:20 PM
#41
Again, it is not weight distribution that is the bad thing here, it is the increased polar moment. Weight distribution can be corrected with ballast, not that adding lead weight to a race car is ideal.
In this case, with the engine so far out front of the front wheels, lots of understeer would be induced by all that weight not wanting to change directions. Good thing it has the front tires to help get it turning.
The reason Millens car had the 20b so far back is to REDUCE THE POLAR MOMENT which helps the car respond quicker to turning.
In this case, with the engine so far out front of the front wheels, lots of understeer would be induced by all that weight not wanting to change directions. Good thing it has the front tires to help get it turning.
The reason Millens car had the 20b so far back is to REDUCE THE POLAR MOMENT which helps the car respond quicker to turning.
Last edited by RX-Heven; 10-20-05 at 01:46 PM.
10-20-05, 04:24 PM
#42
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Maybe I missed something about the suspension wieght distribution. Wait no I remember the show now. It was that one on Speed Channel. Were they mostly deal with Import cars. Ahh I cant remember the name. It has the same host as Dream car garage and some rock guy or something like that.
Well anyways to the point the had a car on four corner wieghts that showed how much wiehgt was at each wheel. And by adjusting the right front coilover more wieght could be transfered into the rear. I remember it because I was like WTH. And it was a blue car. And a British guy was in the drivers seat. And went throught the whole process, oh and he also gave a price to rent the scales and stuff like that.
Well anyways to the point the had a car on four corner wieghts that showed how much wiehgt was at each wheel. And by adjusting the right front coilover more wieght could be transfered into the rear. I remember it because I was like WTH. And it was a blue car. And a British guy was in the drivers seat. And went throught the whole process, oh and he also gave a price to rent the scales and stuff like that.
10-20-05, 04:38 PM
#43
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Weight distribution and cross weight are helpful tools for tuning your suspension. Unfortunately, many racers misunderstand these properties, setting up a potentially winning car to lose. The following example of this science will demonstrates how chassis weights and preload work. This is how it was explained to me in simple terms, so I will explain it the same way. Mind you this dates back to my Racing education in the 80's, so bear with it.
WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION
Imagine that you take your kitchen table and place a bathroom scale under each leg. Stand exactly in the center of the kitchen table. If you are exactly in the center of the table, then all four scales will register the same weight.
Now if you take half a step to the left. The left side scales will now show more weight than the right side scales. In this example the weight is distributed to the left. This is obvious because of where you are standing on the table. But it is also evident from the reading of the scales.
From this position, move forward one half step. The left front scale will now register the most weight. This is logical due to your position on the table. Again, by reading the scales it's also possible to tell where you are standing on the table.
Just like positioning your weight on the table, your race car's weight will respond exactly the same. However, reading the scales to determine the weight location within the car is a little more complex than this kitchen table we used as an example. Refer to our section on roll centers, this section will help you in your quest to find absolute center of your race car.
PRELOAD
Up to this point, all four table legs are rigid. Now place a spring under each table leg, And, just to make it a little more fun, suppose the bottom of each leg had a threaded collar resting on the top of the spring. This simulates your race cars suspension, if your race car doesn't have jacking bolts, omit the jacking springs.
Now the table now has weight jacks just like your race car. Place the scales under the springs. If all four springs were exactly identical and the threaded collars were adjusted to be the same height, and you stand in the middle of the table, then the scales would read no differently than prior to adding the springs (except for the newly added weight of the springs and jacking collars).
However, if you were to adjust the right front spring collar to slightly compress (preload) this spring, then the right front scale will register more weight. At the same time, the left rear scale will register slightly more weight. In this condition, t he right rear and left front scales will register less weight, too.
In this example, if you were to add the weights registered by the left side scales you would find they were 50% of the total. Even though the weight at each corner changed in this example, the weight distribution remained unchanged because you are still standing in the middle of the table.
About this time, many racers give up on trying to understand weight distribution and cross weight. Dont give up, with the use of this section you can and I stress understand how cross weights work.
IN THE REAL WORLD
The kitchen table up to this point has responded exactly the same way your race car would respond for these same changes. In reality, your race car has suspension parts (A frames, tie rod ends, ball joints, link arms and so on.) making it slightly more complicated, but, the physics is the same for both cases.
With no preload, the weight distribution is clearly understood just by reading the scales. You must take in account the difference in spring rates when you look at your weight distribution. The stiffer the spring the more weight it will move to the opposite corner of the car. You can with some playing around figure that for every 50 pounds of spring change you make you will change the weight distribution about 2-5%. With uniform weight distribution the prelaod can also be understood by simply reading the scales. But, throw in a mix of preload (cross weight) and non uniform weight distribution and you have scale readings that are no longer clear indications of these kitchen table examples.
CROSS WEIGHT; Your worste nightmare...or is it?
Simply adding the scaled weights from diagonal corners of the car tells you little about the race car. By the time you factor in different spring rates, sway bar rates and motion ratio, different spring locations, different wheel offsets and rear axle offset, the cross weight is not much more than a number. Preload, however, is a real and scientific aspect of your race car. You must understand what your combination is going to do. You should try setting up your car with different springs, swaybars, and wheel offsets to see what is affected to get an understanding of how things are affected. Major changes can occur just by changing your wheels offset. Start off with a base spring rate and change one thing at a time to see what the effects are. NEVER, EVER change more than one component at one time..This is also true at the track. I have seen teams change their air pressure in one tire and change the wedge (spring weight) of one or more corners of the race car and have it handle worste than when they had started.
Always remember if you change your cross weights you must turn the opposite corners to reflect in respect to your ride heights. If you want more cross weight and compress your right front spring and left rear spring you must turn them the same amount of turns while taking the same amount off the opposite springs. Like I said, this effects your ride heights. If you don't follow this to a tee, you will end up having a car that wont handle on the track. BE WARNED.......
Preload is also a good diagnostic tool for selecting springs on short track cars.
INTERPRETING PRELOAD
When reviewing your Chassis Weights, if you find a preload greater than 25 to 50 pounds, then you could benefit from a spring change. Some people have found preload in excess of 200 pounds. The best way to check for preload is to use a spring tester and measure your compressed distance as the same as is set on the race car. The number you end up with when checking the compressed number will be your preload weight. You can purchase a tester for around 250 dollars, it is a worth while investment.
If the scales shows excessive preload in the right front and left rear, then you should interpret this as the car needing a larger front sway bar. If your car does not have a sway bar, you must change the spring rate on that wheel. Use of sway bar is only recommended on asphalt tracks.
Another benefit from using Chassis scales, and spring testers, is if you find excessive preload in the right rear and left front corners. In this situation your race car could be improved by using stiffer rear springs
but wait there is more
WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION
Imagine that you take your kitchen table and place a bathroom scale under each leg. Stand exactly in the center of the kitchen table. If you are exactly in the center of the table, then all four scales will register the same weight.
Now if you take half a step to the left. The left side scales will now show more weight than the right side scales. In this example the weight is distributed to the left. This is obvious because of where you are standing on the table. But it is also evident from the reading of the scales.
From this position, move forward one half step. The left front scale will now register the most weight. This is logical due to your position on the table. Again, by reading the scales it's also possible to tell where you are standing on the table.
Just like positioning your weight on the table, your race car's weight will respond exactly the same. However, reading the scales to determine the weight location within the car is a little more complex than this kitchen table we used as an example. Refer to our section on roll centers, this section will help you in your quest to find absolute center of your race car.
PRELOAD
Up to this point, all four table legs are rigid. Now place a spring under each table leg, And, just to make it a little more fun, suppose the bottom of each leg had a threaded collar resting on the top of the spring. This simulates your race cars suspension, if your race car doesn't have jacking bolts, omit the jacking springs.
Now the table now has weight jacks just like your race car. Place the scales under the springs. If all four springs were exactly identical and the threaded collars were adjusted to be the same height, and you stand in the middle of the table, then the scales would read no differently than prior to adding the springs (except for the newly added weight of the springs and jacking collars).
However, if you were to adjust the right front spring collar to slightly compress (preload) this spring, then the right front scale will register more weight. At the same time, the left rear scale will register slightly more weight. In this condition, t he right rear and left front scales will register less weight, too.
In this example, if you were to add the weights registered by the left side scales you would find they were 50% of the total. Even though the weight at each corner changed in this example, the weight distribution remained unchanged because you are still standing in the middle of the table.
About this time, many racers give up on trying to understand weight distribution and cross weight. Dont give up, with the use of this section you can and I stress understand how cross weights work.
IN THE REAL WORLD
The kitchen table up to this point has responded exactly the same way your race car would respond for these same changes. In reality, your race car has suspension parts (A frames, tie rod ends, ball joints, link arms and so on.) making it slightly more complicated, but, the physics is the same for both cases.
With no preload, the weight distribution is clearly understood just by reading the scales. You must take in account the difference in spring rates when you look at your weight distribution. The stiffer the spring the more weight it will move to the opposite corner of the car. You can with some playing around figure that for every 50 pounds of spring change you make you will change the weight distribution about 2-5%. With uniform weight distribution the prelaod can also be understood by simply reading the scales. But, throw in a mix of preload (cross weight) and non uniform weight distribution and you have scale readings that are no longer clear indications of these kitchen table examples.
CROSS WEIGHT; Your worste nightmare...or is it?
Simply adding the scaled weights from diagonal corners of the car tells you little about the race car. By the time you factor in different spring rates, sway bar rates and motion ratio, different spring locations, different wheel offsets and rear axle offset, the cross weight is not much more than a number. Preload, however, is a real and scientific aspect of your race car. You must understand what your combination is going to do. You should try setting up your car with different springs, swaybars, and wheel offsets to see what is affected to get an understanding of how things are affected. Major changes can occur just by changing your wheels offset. Start off with a base spring rate and change one thing at a time to see what the effects are. NEVER, EVER change more than one component at one time..This is also true at the track. I have seen teams change their air pressure in one tire and change the wedge (spring weight) of one or more corners of the race car and have it handle worste than when they had started.
Always remember if you change your cross weights you must turn the opposite corners to reflect in respect to your ride heights. If you want more cross weight and compress your right front spring and left rear spring you must turn them the same amount of turns while taking the same amount off the opposite springs. Like I said, this effects your ride heights. If you don't follow this to a tee, you will end up having a car that wont handle on the track. BE WARNED.......
Preload is also a good diagnostic tool for selecting springs on short track cars.
INTERPRETING PRELOAD
When reviewing your Chassis Weights, if you find a preload greater than 25 to 50 pounds, then you could benefit from a spring change. Some people have found preload in excess of 200 pounds. The best way to check for preload is to use a spring tester and measure your compressed distance as the same as is set on the race car. The number you end up with when checking the compressed number will be your preload weight. You can purchase a tester for around 250 dollars, it is a worth while investment.
If the scales shows excessive preload in the right front and left rear, then you should interpret this as the car needing a larger front sway bar. If your car does not have a sway bar, you must change the spring rate on that wheel. Use of sway bar is only recommended on asphalt tracks.
Another benefit from using Chassis scales, and spring testers, is if you find excessive preload in the right rear and left front corners. In this situation your race car could be improved by using stiffer rear springs
but wait there is more
10-20-05, 04:48 PM
#44
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please read this
http://www.nyracer.com/rollcenter.htm
Oh and this could hellp you to.
Here's how to find your Vertical Center Gravity:
You need a scale set, and to have your race car set up as if you were about to go out on the track (radiator, tire pressure, oil, fuel, helmet; all in race condition). You also need a set of blocks six to eight inches tall.
First, weigh the race car normally, then record the total weight (T) and the total number of pounds on the front tires-nose weight (N). Then carefully place the blocks under the rear scales (you may find it useful to lock your rear axle). Now record your new nose weight (NI). Next, subtract your original nose weight (N) from your new, lifted nose weight (NI) and you will have the difference (Nd).
Figure it out using your calculator…
a. Multiply the nose difference (Nd) x 1660= (A)
b. Multiply the total weight (T) x 8 (the height of the blocks)=(B)
c. Divide your previous numbers, A by B, and this equals (C)
d. Add this number, C, to your axle centerline height or spindle center, and the number you obtain is your vertical center of gravity.
You can thank me for all the info later.
http://www.nyracer.com/rollcenter.htm
Oh and this could hellp you to.
Here's how to find your Vertical Center Gravity:
You need a scale set, and to have your race car set up as if you were about to go out on the track (radiator, tire pressure, oil, fuel, helmet; all in race condition). You also need a set of blocks six to eight inches tall.
First, weigh the race car normally, then record the total weight (T) and the total number of pounds on the front tires-nose weight (N). Then carefully place the blocks under the rear scales (you may find it useful to lock your rear axle). Now record your new nose weight (NI). Next, subtract your original nose weight (N) from your new, lifted nose weight (NI) and you will have the difference (Nd).
Figure it out using your calculator…
a. Multiply the nose difference (Nd) x 1660= (A)
b. Multiply the total weight (T) x 8 (the height of the blocks)=(B)
c. Divide your previous numbers, A by B, and this equals (C)
d. Add this number, C, to your axle centerline height or spindle center, and the number you obtain is your vertical center of gravity.
You can thank me for all the info later.
10-20-05, 05:07 PM
#45
I R SAD PANDA W/O BAW
Thanks for the info but there's no way you could adjust the weight distribution enough on this specific car to make it 50/50 without adding significant weight in the rear or having the front of the car significantly higher than the rear (like maybe 1ft or more lol).
10-20-05, 05:14 PM
#46
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I never said it could be completely solved. I just know that it can be done.
Plus how much does a 20b wiegh. I know that the transmission they are probably using wieghs more than the motor. Those Subaru and Mitsu and Nissan AWD trannys are heavy.
Plus how much does a 20b wiegh. I know that the transmission they are probably using wieghs more than the motor. Those Subaru and Mitsu and Nissan AWD trannys are heavy.
10-20-05, 07:54 PM
#48
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Oh damn it will you read my damn post about the mitsu already. It doesnt have to be from a fricken eclipse. If you paid attention you would have seen that the Starioin is a RWD car is stock layout. I know I own one. The transmission used for it in rallies was mailny like a subaru transmission. with half shafts cominf out the side of the transmission. Thus it isnt the transversly mounted transmission thus it would work. Read the whole post next gezz. Stop think front wheel drive layout think old school. I think this is about the 3rd time I have had to right about the same thing.
Alex Saunders
Alex Saunders
10-20-05, 08:22 PM
#49
Originally Posted by fcdrifter13
.......... This is how it was explained to me in simple terms, so I will explain it the same way. Mind you this dates back to my Racing education in the 80's, so bear with it.
WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION.................
WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION.................
Obviously you have never cornerweighted a car or you would know that there is no way in hell you could correct the imbalance of the 20b awd car in question by suspension tunng.
Don't talk out of your *** and plajorism doesn't make you look smart.
Last edited by RX-Heven; 10-20-05 at 08:24 PM.
10-20-05, 08:33 PM
#50
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I didnt say it was all my info. It just from where I picked it up. that and TV. I never said it was my info. I am just trying to help out geez. and it was just a thought I never said you could completely counter it. If I did then I made a mistake. Ok and ill admit up to it. I dont know everything. Noone does ok. I just posted some info that could help out like I always do. If I expressed the info in my own words you could definatly tell I am a certified redneck. If I affended someone sorry. I am 19 BTW born in 86. So I know I wasnt around then. And I wasnt trying to look smart. Just posting usful information(well that I think is useful) isnt that what this site is suppoest to be about.
Alex Saunders
Alex Saunders