Cermet B, Who has it? How does it make you feel?
05-23-06, 03:50 PM
#26
You should PM R.P.M.
He's a local builder who is setup with JHB and I've heard some pretty wild stories about how well those hosings hold up.
However Joe (R.P.M.) himself has a motor right now that he's assembled for his DD that wa entirely coated and it will go through the MILL to test the coatings out.
Zero break-in
Redline at every cold start
General beatings
We want to see just how well these perform. At th end of the season he'll tear it down and see what he finds.
He's a local builder who is setup with JHB and I've heard some pretty wild stories about how well those hosings hold up.
However Joe (R.P.M.) himself has a motor right now that he's assembled for his DD that wa entirely coated and it will go through the MILL to test the coatings out.
Zero break-in
Redline at every cold start
General beatings
We want to see just how well these perform. At th end of the season he'll tear it down and see what he finds.
05-23-06, 03:55 PM
#27
Originally Posted by BoostedRex
So nobody has any info as to what seals would work best? Because I'd like to run RA seals in my next motor, but I won't do that unless the rotor housings are brand new or coated. Just curious if the coating can hold up to the seals or not.
Well....according to the JHB outlet that Joe deals with, they broke in a motor with coated rotors/housings/irons and ran it while pouring aluminm shavings down the intake until it stalled. Pulled it around te block with it in gear to puke the shavings out. Got it running again and found diminished compression but kept using the motor. After a number of days the compression began to return due to the fact that the gouges inthe seals were now nearly machined down because of the hardness of the housings. Upon tear down they found the apex seals nearly entirely worn off, but only minor, machineable scores in the housings.
I was not personally a witness to this event, but the JHB dealer donated the coated pieces to Joe to trash on so he could know first hand - so they must be somewhat good.
I would imagine at that - apparent - level of density I would imagine RA seals would be fine. But Im not sure.
05-23-06, 04:21 PM
#29
Cermet is widely used in the tooling industry; namely, cutting tools. It is used as a coating on drills, inserts, etc, or can be used as a solid cermet tool as well. It has been in use for a while.
What separates Cermet from ceramic is it's hardness and wear resistance. Ceramic is harder and more brittle than Cermet, with a higher wear resistance. Cermet actually wears faster than ceramic. However, it is more impact resistant, being a hybrid between Carbide (very popular cutting tool material) and ceramic. It is also a much more forgiving material as far as applying to a surface. Ceramic requires some quite brutal conditions to apply, and is much harder to finish machine.
Cermet DID win the lemans in the 787b; however, it is used in much more than just the Lemans winning Mazda. It is employed in numerous of the "top dog" racing leagues, such as f1, nascar, NHRA, etc.
When JHB said proprietary, they were referring to his company's dealings with cermet. It is relatively new to them (they started offering it not too long ago), and he is perfecting it. His quality is great, i have had a few cermet coated housings (12a and 13b), and am currently building a complete engine with cermet rotor housings, side housings, ceramic apex seals, and ceramic coated rotors.
It's also cheaper than a new housing (300 vs 450), and I can guarantee it will outlast the mazda coating by at least 5 times. I worked in the manufacturing business for a while, and it's amazing the difference in life between a steel cutting tool and a cermet/carbide/ or ceramic cutting tool. Even the TiN coated, TiCN coated, and TiALN coated steel cutting tools wont hold a candle to the harder carbides, ceramics, and cermets. Technology is awesome.
One last thing. Mazda (and other OE's) don't offer this because it's all about money and productivity. It's cheaper for mazda to sell their engines the way they do, rather than coat everything with cermet. That's why we don't see it.
What separates Cermet from ceramic is it's hardness and wear resistance. Ceramic is harder and more brittle than Cermet, with a higher wear resistance. Cermet actually wears faster than ceramic. However, it is more impact resistant, being a hybrid between Carbide (very popular cutting tool material) and ceramic. It is also a much more forgiving material as far as applying to a surface. Ceramic requires some quite brutal conditions to apply, and is much harder to finish machine.
Cermet DID win the lemans in the 787b; however, it is used in much more than just the Lemans winning Mazda. It is employed in numerous of the "top dog" racing leagues, such as f1, nascar, NHRA, etc.
When JHB said proprietary, they were referring to his company's dealings with cermet. It is relatively new to them (they started offering it not too long ago), and he is perfecting it. His quality is great, i have had a few cermet coated housings (12a and 13b), and am currently building a complete engine with cermet rotor housings, side housings, ceramic apex seals, and ceramic coated rotors.
It's also cheaper than a new housing (300 vs 450), and I can guarantee it will outlast the mazda coating by at least 5 times. I worked in the manufacturing business for a while, and it's amazing the difference in life between a steel cutting tool and a cermet/carbide/ or ceramic cutting tool. Even the TiN coated, TiCN coated, and TiALN coated steel cutting tools wont hold a candle to the harder carbides, ceramics, and cermets. Technology is awesome.
One last thing. Mazda (and other OE's) don't offer this because it's all about money and productivity. It's cheaper for mazda to sell their engines the way they do, rather than coat everything with cermet. That's why we don't see it.
05-23-06, 05:16 PM
#31
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I don't think you can get anything but solid, affirmed, conjecture and hearsay.. they have done no field tests beyond dumping a few over priced items off to people who have yet to a) use them b) have them long enough to actually DO a test with them with any sort of ' time in' results.. so how can anyone say that this coating will last X times as long as the OEM coating when they don't have anything but guess's to back it up with. The company has obviosuly got allot of people snowed and it shows. but when the real questions are asked they stone wall and in the case of the Canadian Forum.. they try to ostracise you for daring to ask the REAL questions..
05-23-06, 05:28 PM
#32
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Dude, it's ok. You don't like them then cool. I'm probably going to end up using it anyways. I've read nothing but good stuff about it besides your posts. The fact that they don't share information doesn't bother me that much. If I was them I'd do the exact same thing.
If all else fails, I can tell you afterwards whether or not it is good stuff.
If all else fails, I can tell you afterwards whether or not it is good stuff.
05-23-06, 05:29 PM
#33
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Mind posting a link/multiple links to discussions on the subject in the Canadian forum? Not trying to be obstinate, but I'm truly interested in anything that might outlast stock.
05-23-06, 10:19 PM
#34
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I feel the same way as dori dori. I can't just take the word of a bunch of board members (I don't care how many posts you have). I need proof that cost + reliability + power = efficient. I'm looking forward to boost maniac testing this out for me. Personally, I have a pineapple racing rebuild coming up and I'm going to leave my decision with rob. He's been building engines for a long time and is very successfull. If he thinks its worth it then I'll go for it and get my stuff coated. I hope he'll cover it under his warranty.
05-24-06, 03:10 AM
#39
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That would be Rotary Ressurection. He says it is nothing but good in the posts I could find him talking about it. But the machinists are going to have a better working knowledge of the stuff because they have used it so much longer than us.
I'm willing to give it a shot, if nothing more than to see if it is all it is cracked up to be. If it works, then I'll have a rock solid motor. If not, then I'll have something good to rebuild a new one with.
I'm willing to give it a shot, if nothing more than to see if it is all it is cracked up to be. If it works, then I'll have a rock solid motor. If not, then I'll have something good to rebuild a new one with.
05-24-06, 09:34 AM
#40
Originally Posted by doridori-rx7
I don't think you can get anything but solid, affirmed, conjecture and hearsay.. they have done no field tests beyond dumping a few over priced items off to people who have yet to a) use them b) have them long enough to actually DO a test with them with any sort of ' time in' results.. so how can anyone say that this coating will last X times as long as the OEM coating when they don't have anything but guess's to back it up with. The company has obviosuly got allot of people snowed and it shows. but when the real questions are asked they stone wall and in the case of the Canadian Forum.. they try to ostracise you for daring to ask the REAL questions..
OR
You could watch https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...=1#post5687408 for the results Joe will post in the fall'ish tme when he tears down his engine and sees what's up.
We're wrking on answers but we can't afford just to pop motors so you can get answers tomorrow. Be paitient and you'll get your answers.........
Plus I think the answers you're looking for i some cases are a little oo difficult to pin down. Yu say "you can't say X product will last X times longer than the mazda original" well bottom line is IF these coatings (which I think they do) last longer, will have a large variance depending on wat apex seals were used and what not.
05-24-06, 09:42 AM
#41
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The problem with the carbide tool theory is that the carbide tools are designed to wear down metal.
Designed to wear down metal is equivalent to designed to eat apex seals. That's not something we actually want, though.
From what I understand the housing hardness and apex seal hardness was designed by Mazda such that they would wear at approximately equal rates, ie: they would fail at the same time, to maximize overall engine life. If Mazda had gone with harder seals, the housings would be chewed up by them and if Mazda had gone with harder housings, they'd eat the seals.
The only part of Cermet that makes up for this is the theory that it's a lower operating friction, saving the seals' lives. Please, think of the baby seals!
Designed to wear down metal is equivalent to designed to eat apex seals. That's not something we actually want, though.
From what I understand the housing hardness and apex seal hardness was designed by Mazda such that they would wear at approximately equal rates, ie: they would fail at the same time, to maximize overall engine life. If Mazda had gone with harder seals, the housings would be chewed up by them and if Mazda had gone with harder housings, they'd eat the seals.
The only part of Cermet that makes up for this is the theory that it's a lower operating friction, saving the seals' lives. Please, think of the baby seals!
05-24-06, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by eViLRotor
The race team I am working with will be running a full cermet coated engine in their FD this season. Rotors, housings and ceramic seals.
If the engine goes, I'll report back the results....
If the engine goes, I'll report back the results....
There seems to be a lot of interest in Cermet B--myself included. I have spoken with Joe (RPM) at length about getting this done (he is rebuilding my engine) and this coating seems to be the holy grail that all rotor heads have been looking for. I still have many questions and he has referred me to JHB for the answers.
I will speak with JHB as well as others using/have used Cermet B. I am not only curious about their opinions but any real world data they can provide. Professionally, I am interested in finding and relaying real information not heresay. My interest is also personal since my findings will help me make a decision whether I will have Joe get my housings Cermet B'ed.
05-24-06, 01:46 PM
#47
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My5ABaby, that is excellent. Thanks for the information. That is some good information and I'm leaning toward this ceramic coating even more. My next question is, what would be the best apex seal for this? A stock steel seal? Or ceramic. I'd much rather go with the stock seal because of the cost. But If there is any information on the ceramic seal and how well it does vs a cermet housing then that would be great. Anyone got any info on the seals?
05-24-06, 03:12 PM
#49
Passing life by
I do not trust kermit so here is some info on cryo. I cryo my entire block evry part of it except the intake manifold and flywheel. I also add 70$ to all my customers rebuilds and I have there apex seals done and housings if new.
How Cryogenic Treatment Works
Cryogenic treatment is one of the most effective treatments to improve the quality, strength and durability of metals.
When metal is formed at atmospheric temperature and pressure the molecules are disorganized and contain weak carbon particles called Austenite. What Cryogenic Treatment does is to convert these disorganized molecules and weak carbon particles into highly organized molecules and very strong carbon particles called Martinsite.
The end result of this conversion is extremely strong and durable metal. Durability (resistance to wear and fatigue) is around 100% (that’s double), the typical increase in strength is 30% to 50%. This results in dramatically reduced replacement costs. In fact typical results are a doubling of the time between engine rebuilds, replacement of disk brake rotors and also doubles the amount of cutting that virtually any blade can do before they need sharpening.
Another benefit of Cryogenic treatment is that the metal becomes a very efficient dissipated of heat. This means engines, transmissions, disk brakes, and cutting tools run much, much cooler.
Cryo your Stock or Hi-Performance Engine, Transmission, & Suspension!!
Up to 50% increase in Strength and up to Double the life of parts subject to wear and parts run cooler!!
Engine internals - rings, main and rod bearings last up to 2 times longer - increases valve spring rates 1 to 3 %
Up to double the life for Manual Transmission Gears and Syncro’s
Automatic Transmissions run up to 50 degrees cooler-less friction=more HP
Ring and Pinion gears last up to twice as long
Disc brake Rotors & Pads last up to 3 times longer
Disc brake Rotors & Pads run up to 120 degrees cooler
How Cryogenic Treatment Works
Cryogenic treatment is one of the most effective treatments to improve the quality, strength and durability of metals.
When metal is formed at atmospheric temperature and pressure the molecules are disorganized and contain weak carbon particles called Austenite. What Cryogenic Treatment does is to convert these disorganized molecules and weak carbon particles into highly organized molecules and very strong carbon particles called Martinsite.
The end result of this conversion is extremely strong and durable metal. Durability (resistance to wear and fatigue) is around 100% (that’s double), the typical increase in strength is 30% to 50%. This results in dramatically reduced replacement costs. In fact typical results are a doubling of the time between engine rebuilds, replacement of disk brake rotors and also doubles the amount of cutting that virtually any blade can do before they need sharpening.
Another benefit of Cryogenic treatment is that the metal becomes a very efficient dissipated of heat. This means engines, transmissions, disk brakes, and cutting tools run much, much cooler.
Cryo your Stock or Hi-Performance Engine, Transmission, & Suspension!!
Up to 50% increase in Strength and up to Double the life of parts subject to wear and parts run cooler!!
Engine internals - rings, main and rod bearings last up to 2 times longer - increases valve spring rates 1 to 3 %
Up to double the life for Manual Transmission Gears and Syncro’s
Automatic Transmissions run up to 50 degrees cooler-less friction=more HP
Ring and Pinion gears last up to twice as long
Disc brake Rotors & Pads last up to 3 times longer
Disc brake Rotors & Pads run up to 120 degrees cooler
Last edited by iceblue; 05-24-06 at 03:15 PM.
05-24-06, 03:15 PM
#50
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it's only a holy grail, if the product works, so far they've shown and offered nothing but if's, when's and could be's.
Originally Posted by concept-R
I would definitely be interested in seeing the results.
There seems to be a lot of interest in Cermet B--myself included. I have spoken with Joe (RPM) at length about getting this done (he is rebuilding my engine) and this coating seems to be the holy grail that all rotor heads have been looking for. I still have many questions and he has referred me to JHB for the answers.
I will speak with JHB as well as others using/have used Cermet B. I am not only curious about their opinions but any real world data they can provide. Professionally, I am interested in finding and relaying real information not heresay. My interest is also personal since my findings will help me make a decision whether I will have Joe get my housings Cermet B'ed.
There seems to be a lot of interest in Cermet B--myself included. I have spoken with Joe (RPM) at length about getting this done (he is rebuilding my engine) and this coating seems to be the holy grail that all rotor heads have been looking for. I still have many questions and he has referred me to JHB for the answers.
I will speak with JHB as well as others using/have used Cermet B. I am not only curious about their opinions but any real world data they can provide. Professionally, I am interested in finding and relaying real information not heresay. My interest is also personal since my findings will help me make a decision whether I will have Joe get my housings Cermet B'ed.