http://www.advancedinductionresearch.com/

they're already on some cars, and places can make them.

what do you think?

would a carbon fiber intake be cool? think it's something that we could make to replace our intakes? or even duplicate out intakes in carbon fiber?

http://www.rotaryeng.net/carbon-intake.txt

a link on how to make the mold.

i'm getting more and more thinking about it..

would be cool and expensive part to have.

i've got nothing but time to play with this shit, and the more i read, the more ready i am to to start

i'm thinking i can make a mold out of those clown blaoons that they shape into dogs and shit, coat the baloon in a resin for the mold, and then carbon fiber over over that.

I use to work at a company that made composite fan blades for the most powerful jet engines in the world!! The process is quite simple, curing with the correct autoclave is the key.

While it's a neat idea, the price would be high enough that anyone who actually needed to save the weight a carbon fibre intake would save has probably already moved onto a different intake design.

Take a look at the thread below to learn how complex the 2nd gen intake manifold really is. Ignore the flaming and fighting in the thread. Regardless of how much of a disaster the thread became it contains some good info.

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/custom-intake-manifolds-672320/

lookin at it now, thanks.

i'm thinking, cause i'm supercharging the engine, the whole vdi pressure wave thing will be done away with, so the carbon fiber one would not have a vdi, but keep the 6pts. i'd keep the lowest engine intake, and carbon fiber from that to the throttle body, replacing the exten manifold and 1st chamber after the tb.

i'm well aware of how comples it is, but then i look at the turbo manifold, and theres none of this stuff. i'm thinking of making a hybrid using the 6pts - the vdi, and whatnot.

if you look at some of the older intakes, they're much simpler, and they worked, and if you buy the camden charger they do away with most of the origonal intake.

as for the money issue, not really a problem, i've been funded to play as i wish.

in a few weeks i'll start playing and if it works, there'll be pics and such.

we'll see

the shock wave from the rotor closing... does this occur on a turbo? there is no vdi on a turbo, no 6pts.

does the pressure from the boost change everything?

Why not just keep the whole stock intake? The VDI certainly won't hurt.

Yes, the turbo manifold is almost a regular plenum and runner design. It does retain the progressive throttle though. Since the turbo engines are 4 port, they are a whole different animal then the NA 6 port engines. Even if Mazda wanted to build a DEI intake for the 4 port they would have a very hard time getting the result they would with the 6 port.

The Camden setup is crap, truthfully. Just search for "camden" to see the poor results people have had. As I recall there's been one kit going around the 2nd gen forum for years now, from owner to owner. It's killed at least one engine and no one has made it work correctly. As Camden did away with the stock intake manifold it's a real pain to make the car idle, the throttle tip in sucks, and the low load is horrid. Camden did away with the whole progressive throttle setup which was a major, major mistake.

To be brutally honest, I think your whole supercharger idea is a massive waste of money. Centrifugal superchargers just don't work well on the rotary. Neither do roots blowers. But it's your money, so who am I to say how it should be spent? :)

A pressure wave occurs anytime a rotor closes a port, but as the turbo manifold is a straight plenum design, I don't believe it is used in any significant way.

It makes it a lot easier to cover up mistakes in the manifold design. :) Turbo manifolds are generally much simpler because you don't need to spend a lot of R&D to scrape every little bit of flow you can. Just turn the boost up until you make the power you want.

why does everyone who wants to boost a 6-port assume that ditching the VDI is necessary??? just because you're force-feeding the baby doesn't mean the vdi isn't still being used :/

why arent blowers good for rotarys? because it's belt driven? just wondering

and after a shit load of reading the intake threads, maybe the s5 intake system isnt so bad afterall, but it could still weigh less.

and the supercharger i plan on using isnt the camden, its the paxton. i'm going to remove the air pump and put it right there, keeping everything else as it is. the only thing that changes is the loss of the afm due to the standalone, and the piping from the blower to the tb.

shouldnt be a problem, should it?

How much HP are you expecting to make with this supercharger?

i'm expecting anywhere from 50 to 75. i'm also putting the tru duals and porting the motor, which is going to be built from scratch, brand new parts, mazdatrix's F level, and a standalone, then dyno tuned.

i expect it to be a strong set up

It's not that they're bad, it's that no one has every really set one up properly.

The Camden kit for example uses an antiquated roots blower that barely flows enough air. To spin it fast enough means a tiny pulley, and thus the blower eats itself. Combine that with the fact that it's very difficult to make our progressive throttle bodies work with a positive displacement blower and you have a poor design. Camden just eliminated the whole concept of primary and secondary ports, while adding a big load onto the engine. Many people need a 1500 RPM idle to keep the car happy when the added drag of the supercharger is in place.

The price of the Camden kit will make your eyes water.

Centrifugal superchargers sort of have the same issues. The old Paxton/Nelson kit had to overpseed the blower to get enough air. They didn't last long because of it, the mounting brackets broke, and it pushed a lot of heat into the engine.

Most of the superchargers around are either too large, or two small.

In theory a Lysholm supercharger would be a great match if properly sized but the price keeps everyone away (and it has the same issues as the roots regarding the manifold).

The 13B pumps a LOT of air. Superchargers for 4-8 cylinder engines aren't going to do the job.

Turbo upgrades for the 13B are full frame T4 sized turbos. Aftermarket turbo kits for the V8 cars are most often T3 frame turbos. Our engine moves enough air and has enough exhaust energy to easily spool even T6 frame turbos. A little blower that's out of flow on a Mustang at 5000 RPM isn't going to do squat on a rotary. :)

True enough.

I was using the Camden as an example, but it's a similar situation with the Paxton.

It's just not worth the money. Getting 200 to the wheels is a realistic expectation, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less.

The supercharger is making so little power that a standalone isn't really even required. Just get an upgraded fuel pump and a rising rate regulator.

Just bolting on a crappy stock turbo (that was designed in the last century, is bordering on too small, pushes heat after 10 PSI, eats itself around 14 PSI and is probably already worn out) and running it at 10 PSI will get you 230-240 HP to the wheels on that engine.

And it won't be loud to the level of being unholy with the true dual exhausts.

well see how it goes. i'll post pics of the whole build from start to finish, and also post the dyno slips. i'm getting a plasma cutter and a mig to weld and create the brackets, the pully on the blower is small enough, self lubricating and i'm going to set up a pulley system to run the whole thing.

also, getting the standalone will allow the car to be a lot finelier tuned, and i can ditch the afm.

after a lot of consideration, if and when i make the carbon fiber intake, i think i'm going to duplicate the stock s5 manifold, vdi included, however, do it so that it's designed with all of the little nipples for all the emmissions stuff removed.

i'm guessing i should keep the bac since it helps with the idle, maybe move the injectors once i get it taken apart, but i'm pretty confident that i can duplicate the runners and vdi.

we still have'nt talked you out of the super charger idea yet?

we still have'nt talked you out of the super charger and carbon fiber intakes idea yet?

corrected ;)

nope, sorry dude. i'm set on it. i've got the means and the want to cut no corners and make it work properly. i'm not knocking turbos, or their problems, but i just want something different.

there are positives. no lag, it can still be geared and set to my powerband i'm looking for, weighs less, is cheaper...

i'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out

It's going to be difficult to duplicate the S5 intake. Certainly a lot more expensive then the simple plenum and runner style manifolds shown on the websites you previously linked to.

Your first step should be to obtain an S5 NA intake and then completely disassemble it. You'll then see the parts involved and can make a decision on the carbon fibre.

Without a doubt you'll want to retain the BAC. You should also put serious thought into keeping the cold start cam and thermowax. Though that's more of a throttle body function.

Turbo lag is a myth when we are talking about properly sized turbos and proper tuning. Seriously, it doesn't exist. A stock HT-18 on a high compression engine makes instant boost. It's akin to an on/off switch. Plant the pedal at 1500 RPM and get wastegate pressure. The last high compression engine I built (GSL-SE block, HT-18) won't stay out of boost in 5th gear on the highway. We had to stage the secondaries at 2500 RPM until the primaries were upgraded.

And keep in mind that the little crappy stock turbo will put down 250HP easily.

Will the supercharge weigh less? Maybe.

No way that it will cheaper. Not a chance in hell, in fact. :)

As for gearing it to your powerband, that's a major disadvantage. You'll either have to spin it fast down low in which case it will overspeed up top. Also, you'll end up with having to run a bypass valve (or several!) to keep the blower happy when pushing air against a closed throttle body. Gear it so it's happy up top and you won't get any meaningful boost down low. The extra drag from the supercharger will also make the engine feel anemic.

Turbochargers in contrast make their boost independent of engine RPM, but based on engine load. With a properly sized turbo you can set whatever boost level at whatever RPM and throttle position you want.

I'm just trying to save you a lot of wasted money and heartache. But I'm eager to start reading your thread and follow your progress. Maybe you'll be the one person to actually make this work. :)

thanks.

it'll be a little while before the pics start comming in, but i assure you, once things get going, the pics will be shown here first

as for the price, the blower is 2300 for the highest model, curved external piping, polished, pumps 1200 cfm. with that and a little tubing, making my own brackets, the pulleys and a belt, thats all i need.

i priced turbos and set ups; manifolds, turbo, piping, to say the least, and its not cheap. not comparitively to the blower. i looked into doing a completer turbo set up and it was well past the 7K$ mark, for everything.

That's impossible. You could make more power than the supercharger with a stock turbo for less than $2k.

with a used stock turbo?

everything that is going into this car is going to be new. i priced a brand new stock turbo. 1500$. thats just the turbo. without cutting corners, i'd need the turbo ecu, intercooler, manifold and exaust, fuel cut switch, injectors, and a few other things.

See sig for blower setup.

I am making 220rwhp. at a total cost of ~1500.00.

V V V V

i can see the pic of the blower in your avatar. thats the paxton one. but i cant find your sig. is there a link? i'd be very interested in seeing it if you have any pics.

http://www.southern-shift.com/phpBB3...d=16&mode=view


Sorry about the crappy phone pic- not sure if it even posted- I am at work, and sometimes the images won't display.

"You are not authorised to download this attachment." :lol:

Sorry- pic originally posted on another forum- need signon. If I were at home I could upload, but I can't save any pics to the work compy:(

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...9&d=1197344303
How about now? I knew I posted it on this forum at SOME point :D

alright regarding this carbon fiber intake. from what i know about carbon fiber, fuel makes the resin soggy. correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't I not be able to run meth injection after an intake setup like that?

If you are that set on it, then I'm all behind someone who actually plans to follow through with something, but how much do you think it's going to cost to replicate S5 VDI, UIM, and LIM in carbon fiber? Hint: a LOT. Like, for just your set, I bet it'll be near the cost of a good rebuild, just because you can't just pour CF into a mold like steel/aluminum and have your part pop out. :/ I mean...you can mold it, but...you know what I mean.

I just want to throw a couple things out there that haven't been addressed that may or may not have been considered.

1. I'm not sure about the fc's but I know the fd's (my friend has one) intake gets super fucking hot. Like really hot, I don't know how this will affect/warp the intake.

2. How thick will the carbon be? Just one layer? I know with the plastic intake on my e30 (I know its not an rx7 ok ok...) but I can see that the intake gets sucked in when I'm WOT...

3. Really necessay to make a carbon intake of the same shape? Making your custom intake with justification (in my eyes) would be to improve the flow of the intake, but as you just stated its already pretty good...

You should just turn up the boost :)

PS: I've done a little carbon work, and its not very easy.

^ This project is not about efficiency or productivity, it's about being different, and as long as the OP achieves that it will be a success.

still researching on how other companies make their cf intakes, and which resins they use. i already thought about the fuel reacting with the resin and the problems it could cause. and still thinking about what to do about that. thickness and layers, between 2-3. i'm aware that it gets hot. and if worse came to worse, i could just make the plemun out of cf, and not the vdi manifold, but i am hoping to make the vdi manifold out of cf as well.

the only thing to think about is the runner length, and if anything, i'd shorten it an inch or two, or connect the first runners into the horseshoe runner a little closer to the engine.

as for the supercharger you've got on your car, is that the paxton-neilson one, or the newer one straight from paxton? how's it run? think you can get a few more pics? think it'd fit right where the air pump goes instead of above where the air pump goes?

That is a Paxton/Nelson unit, which is just an SN89 paxton blower with a kit to bolt it up to a 13b motor. This one was rebuilt and upgraded to an SN2000HO (high output) and is good for 10psi, which is actually limited by the pulley size (the original 3.25'' pulley will overspin the blower above 5k rpms) to ~8psi at redline. I also have a B&M trans cooler and a Tilton pump sending royal purple trans fluid out to the rad area to be cooled and back. It is not the NOVA blower, which is what is in my avatar.

As far as the stock air pump location, the blower's housing is way too large to fit- and as far as I know, the NOVI blowers are pretty similar in size.

The car runs and idles like stock, although it does feel a bit anemic off the light if you stay below 3k rpms. When you get between 3-5k, you can feel the car start to come alive. Where this setup shines is at highway speeds- I just LOVE being able to romp on it and break away from the pack if necessary. The blower whine is noticable enough even at idle to make people wonder what's going on under the hood, and above 5k rpms it sounds like you're gonna suck the glove box into the motor :D Stab the throttle at a light, and it sounds like a beast.
S/C's are not for everyone- I got this one used, with all receipts and docs for cheap, and I had to go for it. It was really a learning experience getting it all dialed in- I did all the work myself- but unless you are a relentless tinkerer and like to take the time to get it right (which given this thread I'm gonna guess you are) it isn't really the easiest way to get there. I did quite a bit of fabbing, even though the "kit" was for a 13b motor. It needed a lot of tweaking, but for me it was worth it. Plus I just can't keep the grin off my face when I hear that blower whine:bigthumb:

As for pics, I could snap some tomorrow and post em up. Let me know if there is anything you'd like to see in particular.

Also, user *touch* has just about the same setup as me (although he has since popped his motor) and could give you some insight as well.

You can have the stock turbo rebuilt. Or, pick something better like the GT30.

Pick up a GT30 with a T3 1.06 turbine housing and an internal wastegate for $1400:
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=GRT

Make a very simple manifold due to the internal wastegate.

You'll still need a standalone which you are planning to get anyway with the supercharger.

Pick up a generic bar and plate intercooler (eBay, $100) and fab up the plumbing.

Why would you need a fuel cut switch?

This setup will put 300HP to the ground with about the same torque and make boost instantly. Won't hold boost to the end of redline though.

Sounds like it feels like a laggy turbo setup.

Ah, but yours is used so saying it cost $1500 isn't really fair when comparing to someone intending to buy everything new. :)

pics, front and back views without the fan shroud in the way, if possible.

and thanks a lot tom. if all goes right, i'll be in florida, according to your pic on the right, your in fl... i'm moving to hillsboro, just a few minutes south of boca. maybe one day we can meet up and compare supercharger set ups.

i was planning on picking up the blower straight from paxton, it's the one commonly used on mustangs, and fabbing it to fit on the 7. it sounds cool from what you said, but what were the tweaking and fabbing mods you had to do? paxton, when i talked to them on the phone, said that i just had to measure my crank pulley and the distance to the blower, and they could give me the specs for the pulley i'd need.

as for the way you set up the oil lines, did you have to drill into the blowers oil resivor? the blower i was looking at has a self contained oil resivor, or i could use cycling engine oil, if i tell them to set it up that way. i was considering going with the self contained set up, and just changing it's oil when i change the car's regular oil. the blower they said has a drain hose and a valve, which sounds easy enough.

i can mount it where you have it, but i was kind of bent on making it fit where the air pump goes, but i guess i'll have to get the blower in my hands before i can realize that thought.

we'll see

as for the turbo talk from araon...

i never fully wrote off adding a the snail to my car, it's jsut that the blower sounds more interesting. tell you what. if i dont like it, i'll later trade it for the turbo set up, k?

do you have any idea at what rpm the blower will start to get damaged? that's one question i forgot to ask the paxton tech people when i called them. is there a range with which it works, like does it have a 5K working range, which can be set according to the pulley it has? i've got the s5 na, so i've got from 0-8K rpms to play with.

i'm thinking of getting a pulley that doesnt do much for the first 2500-3000 rpms, and hopefully having it work till redline. safely for itself.

the newer blowers are for newer cars, which now a days are comming with more and more higher redlines, so i'm guessing that they'd be ok for that

as for the turbos.. what about when they kick in? do they max out like a blower will?

how long till they spool up from a cruising speed until you feel it?

at crusing speed with the blower, is it instantious, as i've been told?

if you tune your setup, a turbo can kick in really early, like ~1500rpm early (as aaron said). you've got to stop assuming that turbos have lag. only turbos that aren't properly tuned have lag. :(

i understand that. perhaps i've just heard the term turbo lag wayy too many times. are there really that many people who are running them who then dont know how to tune them?

so how exactally do you tune a turbo, if you dont mind my asking.

I suppose you are right about that- I got a killer deal, and did the work myself. As for laggy, I wouldn't say that- when you are above 3k and nail it, it feels pretty instant:D

Yes, see above post. As for the pulley, I am running a 3.75" pulley. It keeps me in boost until redline. But my s4's redline is lower, and the blower is not a stock SN89. :D

cool. good to hear that you can red line it though. i'll only need 1K more than you out of my blower and i'd be happy

playing around with the intake plenum length and width, you'll be able to move the torque curve up and down the rpm range as well as mess around with where you want more area under your power curve, below the peak or after.

At least tuning motorcycle engines that are n/a custom intake runners as well as plenum sizes and what not...

As for original part of it, I think this is awesome, I'm sure you're learning a lot and it'll look bad ass :)

can someone point me towards how the vdi works?
I think fuel + resin is ok....but don't quote me haha

the vdi is the variable cynamic intake effect. it looks complicated at first, but if you read enough about it, then stare at the diariagram for a few hours in the factory service manual, you'll begin to understand it.

it's kind of like the 6 port actuater valves, in that at a certian rpm, it opens. the vdi opens at 5800 rpm i think, and under load, to allow the pressure wave that is created when the rotor passes/closes the intake port to be sent to the opposite rotor, which is accepting it's own intake charge at that moment.

i can understand the theroy to some degree, and after reading enough about the system to give myself an annuresium, i'll just say that vdi = good.

changing the runner lengths in which the air travels through or the angle at which the air is aimed through the intake might help, but the vdi should stay in the system.


now what i'm still wondering though, is how will having forced induction effect this pressure wave.

will having a supercharger even allow the pressure wave to back track through the vdi, as the pressure from the blower will be constantly pussing its way towards the combustion chamber.

turbos dont have a vdi valve, so i'm wondering how having boost and a vdi will effect things

So does my GT35, and it'll put down over 400whp :)

3,000rpm + if you mash the pedal it just moves. I can build 15 psi by 4K if I tromped it at 3K.



Just for "lag" reference :)

Most of them don't handle much past 75,000 RPM. I'm not a supercharger expert by any means, so checking the datasheet from the manufacturer is probably the best bet.

See, that's crazy talk to me. :) You've just created a laggy setup under the guise of worrying about lag. :D

The thing is, at what point do they start making boost and do they hold it until redline? Also, the size of the blower VS. the size of the engine is important. The rotary flows air like no other. I see turbo V8s all the time with turbos so small they would choke a stock port 13B, yet the V8s seem to make power.

Depends on the turbo really. As mentioned, the stock turbo is like an on/off switch. Small aftermarket turbos act the same way. Plop a T70 on a stock port engine and don't expect full boost until 5K. Use a GT35R on the same engine and have plenty of boost before 3000 RPM. Go a bit smaller and have boost whenever you want it with some sacrifice up top. Smaller turbos will run out of flow just like a smaller supercharger will. Paradoxically, if you want to run a smaller turbo it's often advantageous to run a larger hot side (why I would say to run a 1.06 on a GT30 while maybe one size down on a GT35 is best).

The key with a turbo is that if sized properly, you can choose your boost at any point.


Depends...A small turbo will be right there. In my old 6 port turbo setup (using the HT-18) it would make full boost at any RPM under moderate throttle.

One would assume, if it's geared correctly.

I always find the term "turbo lag" to be odd. There are certainly laggy setups, and back in the day I'm sure there were a lot of crappy OEM setups. The TII has never been laggy. Drive any OEM turbo car today and I doubt you'll be able to detect any lag.

I'm willing to bet this whole "turbo lag" thing started from poor OEM setups, or the aftermarket people who thought that bolting any old turbo onto any old engine was a good idea.

Tuning too is a big part of it.

So many RX-7s I see are tuned far too rich in the low boost area. This is a critical part of the map where the turbo is trying to gain RPM but the sluggish engine and exhaust gasses is resisting due to running 10:1 A/F ratios. This area is easy to miss as many people just make a few dyno runs and call the car "tuned". Even on the street, just a few roll ons at 2000 RPM in 5th gear will make it easy to clean up those areas. Going from the typical 10:1 to high 11s is a MASSIVE difference. The turbo comes alive and that "lag" is gone. Just make sure to WATCH YOUR TIMING when doing this as it's easy to run too much advance as again, this is a section of the map often ignored.

Another thing is wastegate spring tension. That 10 PSI spring is starting to open at 6 PSI or so. An electronic boost controller will keep it closed until the turbo actually makes 10 PSI.

Mazda made the turbo manifolds very simple. It's less important to tune the intake manifold when you can just up the boost, and you can see how the 6 port manifold makes packaging a bit of a problem. Try fitting a top mounted intercooler...

Air flows into an engine because the chambers are under low pressure and the atmosphere is under high pressure. Same thing with forced induction, just the pressure difference is larger. Now at some point there is probably enough flow to break the VDI advantage but I don't know where that is. And at that point it will begin to act just like a regular intake manifold anyway.

you'd really rather see me do a turbo set up, would'nt you?

you should be a turbo salesman or something.

I would, because I've been around long enough to see all (well, most) the supercharger projects attempted and then fail. :)

I think you'll be happier with the end result if you go turbo. But if you want to supercharge, I just want to make sure it's done with a clear idea as to what's available on "the other side". :D

haha great stuff... you can always switch later too :)

Where'd you get that vdi stuff? I'd love to read into it as I'm looking to do the same for my formula team (or at least the research)...

I know the newer r6 motors have this variable intake runner lenths to adapt the intake to the rpm, but I'm not sure if the is the same thing. If so...Mazda was pretty smart in the 80's :)