Carbon Fiber Apex
 

I came across this pic wile looking on some japanese sites. any info?

never heard of them.

that's crazy!

I also can't see that working very well. Neat idea though!

i love carbon and I work with it all the time there is no way that works I would like to see an engine running with them if the work i gotta start making some

Completely wrong material for the application. Someone is probably pulling your leg.

CF is not some miracle material that makes everything faster.

-bill

I'm far from an expert in carbon fiber, but I doubt it can handle the heat or the friction.

yeah they cant be that strong can they???

Well, they're probably plenty strong, but...

Carbon fiber has been known to warp/melt if left out in a hot sun for hours and hours in the dead of summer.

Now, what do you think would happen inside a 1400-1800* engine? :O

If it works for brake rotors on race cars I don't see why it wouldn't work.

good point

Difference in thickness. I also doubt that CF would work for Apex seals.

I thought they used ceramics for rotors?

carbon rotors /= carbon fiber

some Japanese guy probably got confused and tried to make carbon apex seals out of carbon fiber :p

A diamond is a form of carbon. A diamond is formed when carbon is subjected to extreme temperature and extreme pressure for a period of time. If they were made from a durable form of carbon they might work,but, I doubt if they are made of the same stuff that everybody likes to use to make a hood.

Although I am new to RX7s and new to this forum and I am by no means an expert when it comes to apex seals, I personally would stick to something more conventional.

I see can that being correct

I agree fully... You people need to step outside the box and think for a second about carbon... If someone were to make an apex seal from CF it certainly wouldn't be the same carbon used for making aesthetic parts... Also there are some very high grades of carbon available, but the processes involved in curing them are generally far beyond the scope of your average Joe Schmoe CF guy... Also the high quality stuff is way too expensive for most people to even consider affording...

I'm just glad nobody has thought of my idea yet regarding apex seals... :D

the difference between carbon (which is actually used for seals) and carbon fiber is that it must be formed into a rigid sturcture using some kind of slow curing adhesive. i'm pretty sure epoxy is the usual choice for this and that's what couldn't stand the conditions.

a similar material is used for the seals in our air pumps though. i think it's made out of flax cloth and a curing agent or something. it's self lubricating with good wear properties. the reason i know is i took a spare one apart and ended up cleaning it out and reassembling it to put on my car.

There are many forms of carbon, but "carbon" itself is actually amazingly resilient to heat. For example, some forms of hardened graphite are basically the best rocket nozzle materials available, and can withstand heats far above that of ceramic. Daimond, as was mentioned, is another good example.

"carbon fiber" isn't pure carbon, and is actually part of a polymeric chain, but even it can withstand very high heat. However, as someone else has posted, epoxies generally can't withstand high heat, so that limits the heat capability of the cured composite.

I wouldn't think that CF would be good for apex seal, heat resistant or not, simply because CF is much more brittle than metal.

i was watching discovery on the new scram jet engines not ram, but scram. the material they use to direct the exhaust on those they called "carbon carbon" not so sure what its structural integrity may be or how its made but it is light as carbon fiber and can withstand temps sheet thin more than anything so they claim. just my 2 cents maybe someone els caut that on tv?

when posting something like this pic please post alink to the site where it was found so that others may read about the object in question.

oh it can handle the heat. i dunno about the friction part, though.

:)

They make some for airplace rotor motors that don't brake, they bend if you detenat your motor and then bend back in a few mins of the motor running

That's a great example Dave!

link to this info?

Obviously someone made those apex seals.. Perhaps they have been used in an expereriment. Finally something posted in the lounge that's unique in content.:)

don't have one, we where talking about them with a rotor shop guy at the last rx meet. i'll see if he has any info on them

I have no idea why this thread went as far as it did.

CF Apex seals..... I don't think so, but if someone makes them and they work really well, I'll gladly eat crow while I get in line to buy some.

that's carbon ceramic or ceramic carbide not carbon fiber. Big difference.

just think about how happy my manifold will be :)

Theoretically, if I were to know your idea, what would it be? Theoretically
:icon16:

did anyone else notice one was broken? couldn't have worked out all that well :p:

THANK YOU i was jsut about to respond to that... i think they were a joke.....

Ok brace yourself...













SPIDER SILK! :D

Maybe I'm just retarded, but what the hell would the purpose of carbon seals be? It's not for weight, I assume. I mean, that's like .5 lbs you'd be saving. Totally not worth the process/time/money of carbon seals.. Maybe it's just me.

pfft....been there...tried that...blew up after 1500 miles

Care to elaborate? Someone actually made seals from spider steel?

Yeah, but I bet it didn't chew up your housings on the way out.

it's not weight reduction off the vehicle, but if you spin something around in a figure 8 pattern at high rpm's, a lighter weight seal will move around a lot faster and seal better, instead of bouncing along the rotor housing.

benefits of lighter seals are more hp, torque, and fuel economy, and less chatter on the rotor housings at high rpm.

no one has actually ever heard of Carbon race Apex seals? wow.... I have read about these and thought about them for a while now, downfalls are they are not recommended for Turbo or nitrous applications, good points are they will not chatter until a much higher rpm than stock steel ones and they are cheaper. great for a full N/A build if you dont mind rebuilding it every 20k miles according to them, however a local racer built his engine and ran them 10k miles, when they came out they had very minimal wear.

http://mazdatrix.com/b3.htm

There is a link to them on Mazdatrix.

- Chris

Carbon apex seals are far different then carbon fibre apex seals. Carbon seals have been in use for a long, long time. They're not really street seals though as the main advantage of a carbon seal is that they don't take out a housing when they blow, not long life. They also don't seal well at low RPMs...

imma use depleted uranium.

if they can absorb the impact from a 50mm round, they can probably handle detonation :p:

Ok, i dont know why i waited so long to write a reply to this, but here it goes.

I'm no pro, but i have been dealing with CF and fiberglass for some time now. I can tell you that these 'carbon fiber' apex seals are some sort of joke. You know, CF will catch fire if you put a match to it... What do you think would happen if you put it in a fire breathing rotary?

then theres the problem with resins as stated above.

tho, I am impressed how uniform the made these. It seems the weave of the fabric is uniform on all three of the seals. maybe this wasnt for a gas engine?

What is the link to the site this was found on? Some of us can read japanese!

did you even see the pic of me blasting the carbon fiber with a blow torch? i only made it glow for 10-15 seconds, but i'd assume that's enough to know it's not gonna catch on fire.

Notice that if you do this, there will be a black feathered mess left. That is the actual carbon fiber; the resin is the onyl part that burns.

--Alex

Another stupid idea...
DU apex seals would eat everything else up inside the engine.

And that other pic with the torch...
Yes, the raw carbon fiber material is very heat resistant.
"Carbon fiber composite" or "Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic" (CFRP) using resins or epoxies - which most people think about when you mention "carbon fiber" - will catch on fire with that same torch.

Those apex seals are not "carbon fiber" as it has been pointed out.
Carbon apex seals are not recommended for boosted applications.
They are used for high-revving NA motors.


-Ted

Hey, I saw a Porsche flat 6 na engine that used carbon fiber pistons that had been ceramic coated. I’ll try to remember the name of the company…..it was a test engine…I don’t know how the test turned out.

speaking of stupid, you don't even know a joke when you hear it.

and since you're a metallurgist, you know that uranium is a very soft metal. why do you think they use it on tank armor? because it absorbs and bends, rather than cracks.

now the ceramic/carbon might be a good idea. worth testing.

I'm going to make seals out of dry Ice then I'm going to convert my car over to run on thermite.