blew the motor...REBUILD TIME YA!!
10-15-06, 09:58 AM
#1
tom port.. AKA streetport
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blew the motor...REBUILD TIME YA!!
it happened friday the 13TH if you didnt read my other threads....i did the poor man's compression check and the rear rotor has NO compression on any stroke....
my guess is the apex seal took the other 2 out....i hope the damage isnt TO bad but im gonna tear the motor out before snow falls, that way i got ALL winter to rebuild it....i was looking in the archives at the 13B rebuilt list and kind of got confused as to what i really need for it yet.....ill probably tear the motor down (with the help of a rebuild video) to see exactly what i need as far as parts and such...i was wondering if i should go 3MM seals instead of 2MM? i plan on keeping my s4 N/A keg and high comp rotors and just put tii intale mani.'s on it so i can do the IC setup better and be a cleaner look.....
i was wondering what i should do? tear it apart FIRST before i start buying rebuild parts for it? im assuming the apex MIGHT have chewed the housing and such...im not familiar with the internals of the rotary so thats why i started this thread.....i KNOW it has been run and beat down HUNDREDS od time (rebuild threads) but i figured id start my own so i can post's pics and progress along the way.....
my guess is the apex seal took the other 2 out....i hope the damage isnt TO bad but im gonna tear the motor out before snow falls, that way i got ALL winter to rebuild it....i was looking in the archives at the 13B rebuilt list and kind of got confused as to what i really need for it yet.....ill probably tear the motor down (with the help of a rebuild video) to see exactly what i need as far as parts and such...i was wondering if i should go 3MM seals instead of 2MM? i plan on keeping my s4 N/A keg and high comp rotors and just put tii intale mani.'s on it so i can do the IC setup better and be a cleaner look.....
i was wondering what i should do? tear it apart FIRST before i start buying rebuild parts for it? im assuming the apex MIGHT have chewed the housing and such...im not familiar with the internals of the rotary so thats why i started this thread.....i KNOW it has been run and beat down HUNDREDS od time (rebuild threads) but i figured id start my own so i can post's pics and progress along the way.....
10-15-06, 10:03 AM
#3
tom port.. AKA streetport
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when it happened i was driving at 75MPH with not much boost...im guessing it was right around where 3500 RPMS so i was around 8LBS. of boost....no pop...no backfire...just lost power...and it wouldnt bost for nuthing......i think the wideband read 11:5 or so, so im not really sure why it gave out? i checked the oil and plugs and they didnt have any antifeeze in them either so thats good...... should i dump some kind of oil into the spark plug holes and crank it so it wont get rusted or anything before i pull the motor?
10-15-06, 10:08 AM
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tom port.. AKA streetport
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Originally Posted by hondahater
that would be the smart thing to do as some stuff you may not need to buy if they are within spec. make sure to have some dial calipers.
im assuming this wont work for all the specs i will need to check?
10-15-06, 10:12 AM
#7
should be fine as most of the stuff your going to be checking are very small like the sideseals etc... Also as a word of advice. I'd get the side housings lapped and to be quite honest with you I would get new side seals no matter if they are in spec or not. I didn't do this and am getting tons of blow by so i'm having to open the motor back up and have this done. I used the old side seals wich I tested using the dial calipers as per the factory manual as well as tested the clearance between the side and corner seals using feeler guages. Do it right the first time!
edit: well being that it only had 57k miles on the motor wasn't driven much for a majority of it's life witch can cause problems like carbon build up etc.... also i wonder how good the old owner of the car was on maintanance. The good thing about rebuilding your own motor is a) the experiance and b) you know how to take care of it and what exactly has been done to the motor (ie. maintanance, how you drive it, and other things that are a mystory when you are not the original owner of the car).
edit: well being that it only had 57k miles on the motor wasn't driven much for a majority of it's life witch can cause problems like carbon build up etc.... also i wonder how good the old owner of the car was on maintanance. The good thing about rebuilding your own motor is a) the experiance and b) you know how to take care of it and what exactly has been done to the motor (ie. maintanance, how you drive it, and other things that are a mystory when you are not the original owner of the car).
Last edited by hondahater; 10-15-06 at 10:15 AM.
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10-15-06, 10:21 AM
#8
tom port.. AKA streetport
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ya, thats exactly why i want to rebuild it myself......because i KNOW what went into it...and i will have the "know how" on how to rebuild it....
the first owner rolled the car in 90....its an 88 GTU...the secon owner rebuilt the cars chassis and gave it to his wife for there anniversary...the car was well maintained by them....he seemed to know the "basics" abouyt the rotary motor...i DONT think he knew much about carbon build up though and he used 5W30 oil......SOOOO it might need a good cleaning....i dont think it should be in bad shape inside because it wasnt driven much till i got it
PLUS...its never seen the winter and he made sure to undercoat it WELL when he owned it....he still begs me once in a while to buy it back......
the first owner rolled the car in 90....its an 88 GTU...the secon owner rebuilt the cars chassis and gave it to his wife for there anniversary...the car was well maintained by them....he seemed to know the "basics" abouyt the rotary motor...i DONT think he knew much about carbon build up though and he used 5W30 oil......SOOOO it might need a good cleaning....i dont think it should be in bad shape inside because it wasnt driven much till i got it
PLUS...its never seen the winter and he made sure to undercoat it WELL when he owned it....he still begs me once in a while to buy it back......
10-15-06, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 88rxn/a
my guess is the apex seal took the other 2 out....
i hope the damage isnt TO bad but im gonna tear the motor out before snow falls,
that way i got ALL winter to rebuild it....i was looking in the archives at the 13B rebuilt list and kind of got confused as to what i really need for it yet.....ill probably tear the motor down (with the help of a rebuild video) to see exactly what i need as far as parts and such...
You will need:-apex seals
-apex seal springs (they're cheap)
-corner seals with rubber plug
-corner seal springs (FD)
-side seals and springs
-oil o-rings (but probably not the metal carrier)
-oil springs
Then a gasket set and the front and rear main seals.
Bearings and whatnot are probably fine.
You'll know when you open it if you need a housing and rotor.
i was wondering if i should go 3MM seals instead of 2MM? i plan on keeping my s4 N/A keg and high comp rotors and just put tii intale mani.'s on it so i can do the IC setup better and be a cleaner look.....
i was wondering what i should do? tear it apart FIRST before i start buying rebuild parts for it? im assuming the apex MIGHT have chewed the housing and such...im not familiar with the internals of the rotary so thats why i started this thread.....i KNOW it has been run and beat down HUNDREDS od time (rebuild threads) but i figured id start my own so i can post's pics and progress along the way.....
10-15-06, 02:51 PM
#12
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I just recently finished my rebuild. Heres a few thought you may need to ponder over and some suggestions.
The Atkins Rebuild Kit is a awesome start, however i DO prefer Mazda OEM Apex Seals and Springs so i got the Atkings MASTER REBUILD KIT and told them not to send the Apex Seals and Springs, and got those from Mazda Directly. (if you can get a discount, most here in canada give you 10-20% off you only endup paying like 50bucks More in the end). Thats a given need when you do a rebuild (the seals i mean). Then you gotta tear the motor down and findout exactly whats useable, whats not, and whats BORDERLINE! thats a bigone, i found alot of my parts were useable or borderline, so you gotta make a decision call on that. What i looked at was, i want a performance engine, if i use borderline parts, i get borderline performance AND the possiblity that it may fail further down the line and i would have to do a rebuild again or something of the sort. My main part that was bothering me was the Housings. So i ended up after much thought, research, opinons i decided to get new housings, and from there you basically have 3 choices. 1) New Housings 2) JHB Coated Housings 3)Used Housings in better shape then yours. I did choice 2 as it was cheaper for me, and the parts were readily available for me because RPM Performance had a set already ready to go. After that porting, see if thats something you would like to get done and who can do it for you, MAKE SURE YOU GET SOMEONE EXPERIENCED and not just anyone, a improperly ported motor can be costly because of having sharp edges or something that can get a apex seal caught or chipped (like an exhaust port) or something of that sort, here the more the experience the better. From that you have to see if you want to do other mods while you motor is apart, cleaning, now that really isnt a mod, but i took most of my part and got them either varsol tank cleaned, or chromium acid cleaned (father part owns a industrial chroming shop). Alternator if you wanted to go s5/s6 now might be your best time. Upgrade your rad and get all new hoses and lines. Clean injectors, increase size, redo fuel lines/FPR and switch, fix, change Pulsation Dampner. If you want redo your grounds to make sure you have no issues, redo your fuel sending unit screws and do fuel pump mod for voltage. All that sorta bit, although not sure if most are mods, but most will help for reliability. I did alot of lookings and inqureing when doing my rebuild, as have other here and were all here to help ya, but your gonna get SO many opinons varing your going to have to come up with some of your own ways to judge.
Finally putting it together, and rebuilding it, do you want to do it yourself? or have someone do it for you. In canada i recommend RPM Performance. In the states, i have heard excellent things about Kevin Landers (Rotary Ressurection, and he can do budget rebuilds as well). You got lots of options, and honestly it comes down to 1 key thing, MONEY. How much you want to put in, and also think, what you want to get out (optimistically) and what your going to get out (realistically). Goodluck!
The Atkins Rebuild Kit is a awesome start, however i DO prefer Mazda OEM Apex Seals and Springs so i got the Atkings MASTER REBUILD KIT and told them not to send the Apex Seals and Springs, and got those from Mazda Directly. (if you can get a discount, most here in canada give you 10-20% off you only endup paying like 50bucks More in the end). Thats a given need when you do a rebuild (the seals i mean). Then you gotta tear the motor down and findout exactly whats useable, whats not, and whats BORDERLINE! thats a bigone, i found alot of my parts were useable or borderline, so you gotta make a decision call on that. What i looked at was, i want a performance engine, if i use borderline parts, i get borderline performance AND the possiblity that it may fail further down the line and i would have to do a rebuild again or something of the sort. My main part that was bothering me was the Housings. So i ended up after much thought, research, opinons i decided to get new housings, and from there you basically have 3 choices. 1) New Housings 2) JHB Coated Housings 3)Used Housings in better shape then yours. I did choice 2 as it was cheaper for me, and the parts were readily available for me because RPM Performance had a set already ready to go. After that porting, see if thats something you would like to get done and who can do it for you, MAKE SURE YOU GET SOMEONE EXPERIENCED and not just anyone, a improperly ported motor can be costly because of having sharp edges or something that can get a apex seal caught or chipped (like an exhaust port) or something of that sort, here the more the experience the better. From that you have to see if you want to do other mods while you motor is apart, cleaning, now that really isnt a mod, but i took most of my part and got them either varsol tank cleaned, or chromium acid cleaned (father part owns a industrial chroming shop). Alternator if you wanted to go s5/s6 now might be your best time. Upgrade your rad and get all new hoses and lines. Clean injectors, increase size, redo fuel lines/FPR and switch, fix, change Pulsation Dampner. If you want redo your grounds to make sure you have no issues, redo your fuel sending unit screws and do fuel pump mod for voltage. All that sorta bit, although not sure if most are mods, but most will help for reliability. I did alot of lookings and inqureing when doing my rebuild, as have other here and were all here to help ya, but your gonna get SO many opinons varing your going to have to come up with some of your own ways to judge.
Finally putting it together, and rebuilding it, do you want to do it yourself? or have someone do it for you. In canada i recommend RPM Performance. In the states, i have heard excellent things about Kevin Landers (Rotary Ressurection, and he can do budget rebuilds as well). You got lots of options, and honestly it comes down to 1 key thing, MONEY. How much you want to put in, and also think, what you want to get out (optimistically) and what your going to get out (realistically). Goodluck!
10-15-06, 10:26 PM
#13
Displacement > Boost
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And the turbo rotary strikes again!
j/k
Sorry to hear of your misfortune man. Blowing a rotary is a pain in the ***.
The digital calipers I've used when machining parts (either the cheap harbor freight knock offs or the real Mitutoyo ones) seem to be accurate to within .001 of a real micrometer, and are quite repeatable. I'd still use a real mic though. I bought a 0-4" one off ebay years ago when I first entered the rotary rebuilding trade, which we all know is part of any passionate rotarded RX7 owner's life.
j/k
Sorry to hear of your misfortune man. Blowing a rotary is a pain in the ***.
Originally Posted by 88rxn/a
at the moment this is the only one i have....
im assuming this wont work for all the specs i will need to check?
im assuming this wont work for all the specs i will need to check?
The digital calipers I've used when machining parts (either the cheap harbor freight knock offs or the real Mitutoyo ones) seem to be accurate to within .001 of a real micrometer, and are quite repeatable. I'd still use a real mic though. I bought a 0-4" one off ebay years ago when I first entered the rotary rebuilding trade, which we all know is part of any passionate rotarded RX7 owner's life.
Last edited by 88IntegraLS; 10-15-06 at 10:29 PM.
10-16-06, 08:10 AM
#14
tom port.. AKA streetport
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well im gonna get started sometime this week or next week as far as tearing out the motor....i will follow up with pics and such and let ya know the damage i did to the rear housing and rotor...im guessing something is messed up as i pulled the plug to check for compression and found a little shaving
thats expected i guess...
what would this do???
thanks for the info and i will wait before i buy anything to rebuild it after inspecting the internals and whats left of them....
i dont want to sound like a noob doing this but i am...
thats expected i guess...
swap to turbo rotor housings
thanks for the info and i will wait before i buy anything to rebuild it after inspecting the internals and whats left of them....
i dont want to sound like a noob doing this but i am...
10-16-06, 09:17 AM
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Engine, Not Motor
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There's no reason to swap to turbo rotor housings. The only difference is that they don't have the exhaust diffuser and have the coolant ports for the turbo feed.
The NA diffusers can be easily ground out when the exhaust is ported.
The NA diffusers can be easily ground out when the exhaust is ported.
10-16-06, 11:03 AM
#16
tom port.. AKA streetport
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now i understand what you guys are talking about.....the exhaust sleeve's correct??
i take it the TII exhaust sleev breath's better than the N/A?
is that the reason to do this?
i seen this thread (removing N/A exhaust sleeve) and figured thats the reason for the mention of the TII rotor housing?
so i take it i should pick some TII exhaust sleeves?
i take it the TII exhaust sleev breath's better than the N/A?
is that the reason to do this?
i seen this thread (removing N/A exhaust sleeve) and figured thats the reason for the mention of the TII rotor housing?
so i take it i should pick some TII exhaust sleeves?
10-16-06, 09:53 PM
#18
If you have any questions about your rebuild, just send me a PM.
If I were you I'd switch to low-compression s4 TII rotors, but that's just me. And you know I've got high-comp rotors too...
Also, don't skimp out on your first rebuild. So many people do (including me) and it'll always come back to bite you. Also, do everything BY THE BOOK the first time around (at least), so you can be confident in the quality of the build. For example, anyone can do a street-port, but not everyone can do a good streetport... If you cut ANY corners, they will come back and haunt you--guarenteed.
For example, the previous owner of my TII replaced the oil-seal inserts, but didn't replace the "hard" oil-seal... Well, 20k miles later, my TII is blowing oil-smoke on startup etc. So yeah, just be careful and take your time. Then again, rebuilding a 13b is fairly easy, so don't get freaked out or anything.
BTW, I'm going to be "freshening" up my motor this weekend with new oil seals, coolant seals, and new springs (apex, corner, side and oil-seal springs) and also to inspect the damage after 20k miles running RA seals.
If I were you I'd switch to low-compression s4 TII rotors, but that's just me. And you know I've got high-comp rotors too...
Also, don't skimp out on your first rebuild. So many people do (including me) and it'll always come back to bite you. Also, do everything BY THE BOOK the first time around (at least), so you can be confident in the quality of the build. For example, anyone can do a street-port, but not everyone can do a good streetport... If you cut ANY corners, they will come back and haunt you--guarenteed.
For example, the previous owner of my TII replaced the oil-seal inserts, but didn't replace the "hard" oil-seal... Well, 20k miles later, my TII is blowing oil-smoke on startup etc. So yeah, just be careful and take your time. Then again, rebuilding a 13b is fairly easy, so don't get freaked out or anything.
BTW, I'm going to be "freshening" up my motor this weekend with new oil seals, coolant seals, and new springs (apex, corner, side and oil-seal springs) and also to inspect the damage after 20k miles running RA seals.
10-17-06, 10:07 AM
#19
tom port.. AKA streetport
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thanks for the help....
if it would quit raining i would be able to get started...and i have another car in the garage...LOL
i most def. will be shooting you PM's mang!
i dont plan on doing this half-***'ed...i do WANT TO RUN tii ROTORS and i just might.....if i find some cheap enough and in good shape....
i dont want to be going through this again....
BUT i do have all winter to rebuild it....
right now im waiting on a rebuild video getting sent to me....ill watch that a few times to get familiar with it....
if it would quit raining i would be able to get started...and i have another car in the garage...LOL
i most def. will be shooting you PM's mang!
i dont plan on doing this half-***'ed...i do WANT TO RUN tii ROTORS and i just might.....if i find some cheap enough and in good shape....
i dont want to be going through this again....
BUT i do have all winter to rebuild it....
right now im waiting on a rebuild video getting sent to me....ill watch that a few times to get familiar with it....
10-17-06, 10:35 PM
#20
Originally Posted by 88rxn/a
thanks for the help....
if it would quit raining i would be able to get started...and i have another car in the garage...LOL
i most def. will be shooting you PM's mang!
i dont plan on doing this half-***'ed...i do WANT TO RUN tii ROTORS and i just might.....if i find some cheap enough and in good shape....
i dont want to be going through this again....
BUT i do have all winter to rebuild it....
right now im waiting on a rebuild video getting sent to me....ill watch that a few times to get familiar with it....
if it would quit raining i would be able to get started...and i have another car in the garage...LOL
i most def. will be shooting you PM's mang!
i dont plan on doing this half-***'ed...i do WANT TO RUN tii ROTORS and i just might.....if i find some cheap enough and in good shape....
i dont want to be going through this again....
BUT i do have all winter to rebuild it....
right now im waiting on a rebuild video getting sent to me....ill watch that a few times to get familiar with it....
10-18-06, 06:32 AM
#21
tom port.. AKA streetport
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its the atkins vid.....
im still waiting for it...
im trying to find a blown TII around here (S4 of course since thats what i got)...i hoping that i can find one thats trashed and get it real cheap....then i can switch the drivetrain and with some luck get its rotors flywheel and counterweight..if not...guess imA stay with high comp. rotors....im currently looking into finding a local tuner (at least in PA) so i can have it done right this time.....ill sell what i got now (most of my parts) get TII manifolds and shoot for the goal i wanted right before the motor went....
guess ill be shoping for a bigger turbo!!!!
im currently applying for a job that pays VERY good money for my area so this will allow me to do ALOT more over the winter than i anticipated......
im still waiting for it...
im trying to find a blown TII around here (S4 of course since thats what i got)...i hoping that i can find one thats trashed and get it real cheap....then i can switch the drivetrain and with some luck get its rotors flywheel and counterweight..if not...guess imA stay with high comp. rotors....im currently looking into finding a local tuner (at least in PA) so i can have it done right this time.....ill sell what i got now (most of my parts) get TII manifolds and shoot for the goal i wanted right before the motor went....
guess ill be shoping for a bigger turbo!!!!
im currently applying for a job that pays VERY good money for my area so this will allow me to do ALOT more over the winter than i anticipated......
10-18-06, 06:33 PM
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I'd say that you should get a micrometer and use that instead of the digital calipers. Calipers are a good for bigger things but are not accurate enough for tight tolerences. My major in college is precision machining. If you really want to do your motor corrctly then you should invest in a nice 0-1 mic. (0-1 inch)
10-22-06, 09:49 AM
#25
tom port.. AKA streetport
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just a little update
i found a TII (S4)....im picking it up cheap...the motor in that car has 94K on it and im not sure of the compression...i might just rebuild it anyway before the apex decides to take out the housing and rotor.....depending on the shape of the housing also.....
at leats now ill have a TII drivetrain that will take better abuse.....
im currently also looking into a haltech.......
this is all depending on a job im trying to get...
i got a interview this tuesday and should know then the outcome...if all goes well i will double my paychecks and the transformation will begin!
im also still wondering if i should attempt the rebuild myself or have it built by someone else......i NEVER rebuilt a motor but i think im mechanically inclined so im basically stuck here
i also have a coupe of friends that know some about piston motors (rebuilding) but i realize thats pry totally dif. than a rotary.....
i want a streetport!
at leats now ill have a TII drivetrain that will take better abuse.....
im currently also looking into a haltech.......
this is all depending on a job im trying to get...
i got a interview this tuesday and should know then the outcome...if all goes well i will double my paychecks and the transformation will begin!
im also still wondering if i should attempt the rebuild myself or have it built by someone else......i NEVER rebuilt a motor but i think im mechanically inclined so im basically stuck here
i also have a coupe of friends that know some about piston motors (rebuilding) but i realize thats pry totally dif. than a rotary.....
i want a streetport!
Last edited by 88rxn/a; 10-22-06 at 09:52 AM.