best path to 300 hp on a n/a
09-28-05, 09:53 AM
#51
What Subscription?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Aiken SC USA
Posts: 5,926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
Damn that's an expensive TB! I was making my own for well under half of that!
Thats including, TB, TPS, Velocity Stacks, various Mandral bends etc.
And that number is a WAG while I am sitting at work. My spread sheet is at home
09-28-05, 09:58 AM
#52
Super Raterhater
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NY, MA, MI, OR, TX, and now LA or AZ!
Posts: 10,624
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Well, that makes it a little better, still sounds a hair high though, that including fuel rails and such as well? I think my TB with rails cost me right around the $430 mark, I don't have stacks though, and I ebayed the TPS for dirt cheap
09-28-05, 10:07 AM
#53
What Subscription?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Aiken SC USA
Posts: 5,926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tweakits price is ~ 642 for the TB, Stacks and TPS. I also forgot to add the extruded fuel rail stock from Marren, or the reamers to properly mod the rails. The fun extraneous costs of building an engine
09-28-05, 12:10 PM
#54
Lives on the Forum
I don't see anything wrong with what banzaitoyota has mentioned...
You expect to bolt a PP short block into the chassis and expect it to run by itself?
PP carb / ITB specs are significantly different from BP, SP, or stock (duh) port motors.
A custom intake system is a necessity.
Mazdatrix lists their $8,600 motor as a short block - no intake, no exhaust.
Although the exhaust portion is pretty trivial, the intake part isn't.
max will claim otherwise, but I would never tackle trying to produce a throttle body system unless I have access to a 3D CNC (I don't have one or access to one) or a very talented machinist (I do not profess to be one).
This means it has to be bought.
We can all brag about our hook-up's, but it does little for Joe Schmoe Consumer who doesn't have such resources.
Thus, I'm assuming retail prices, or at least very close to it.
Typical PP short block prices I've seen from other vendors are in the $3,000 to $4,000 range.
ITB + fuel injectors are in the $1,000 range.
Haltech E8 or equivalent is $2,000, assuming labor for install.
Rebuild tranny (as banzaitoyota wisely suggests) is a must; the motor is spinning that much faster, and the input shaft to the tranny will too - you expect a 100k...200k+ used tranny to hold up?
That's $1,000 for the tranny rebuild.
Add one special flywheel to be able to spin up to 10k or safety equipment to save your legs if the clutch / flywheel lets go adds several hundred dollars.
On the CHEAP side, I see at least $7k.
I wouldn't tackle a project like this unless I *double* the projected budget, so that gets close to $15k.
I can hear max rolling on the ground already...
-Ted
You expect to bolt a PP short block into the chassis and expect it to run by itself?
PP carb / ITB specs are significantly different from BP, SP, or stock (duh) port motors.
A custom intake system is a necessity.
Mazdatrix lists their $8,600 motor as a short block - no intake, no exhaust.
Although the exhaust portion is pretty trivial, the intake part isn't.
max will claim otherwise, but I would never tackle trying to produce a throttle body system unless I have access to a 3D CNC (I don't have one or access to one) or a very talented machinist (I do not profess to be one).
This means it has to be bought.
We can all brag about our hook-up's, but it does little for Joe Schmoe Consumer who doesn't have such resources.
Thus, I'm assuming retail prices, or at least very close to it.
Typical PP short block prices I've seen from other vendors are in the $3,000 to $4,000 range.
ITB + fuel injectors are in the $1,000 range.
Haltech E8 or equivalent is $2,000, assuming labor for install.
Rebuild tranny (as banzaitoyota wisely suggests) is a must; the motor is spinning that much faster, and the input shaft to the tranny will too - you expect a 100k...200k+ used tranny to hold up?
That's $1,000 for the tranny rebuild.
Add one special flywheel to be able to spin up to 10k or safety equipment to save your legs if the clutch / flywheel lets go adds several hundred dollars.
On the CHEAP side, I see at least $7k.
I wouldn't tackle a project like this unless I *double* the projected budget, so that gets close to $15k.
I can hear max rolling on the ground already...
-Ted
09-28-05, 01:21 PM
#55
Ready to Rock
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Maxthe7man
That was pretty lame...
How do you know how much it costs have you done one? How do you know everyone must pay for labour, nobody else could do this themselves, show me where labour was mentioned previous?..
How do you know how much it costs have you done one? How do you know everyone must pay for labour, nobody else could do this themselves, show me where labour was mentioned previous?..
Originally Posted by DREYKO
best path to 300 hp on a n/a - just like it says. ive got a catback and kn filter, but what else? just start listing em, thx
This obviously isn't true of everyone, but my answer was specifically directed towards the threadstarter and his question.
09-28-05, 01:48 PM
#56
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
I paid $425 for my 75 MM Edelbrock).
But if no one seems to care, then I'll leave it alone.
That said, I'll leave these last few replies up for a few hours, then delete to clean the thread...
But if no one seems to care, then I'll leave it alone.
That said, I'll leave these last few replies up for a few hours, then delete to clean the thread...
I say the thread should be left alone. Pricing info is very important to those who don't want to spend an arm and a leg for a set-up similar to someone else. If pricing discussion were all done through Pm's, that limits the effectiveness of this thread. These threads can be about HOW TO instead of just mainly focusing on the DISCUSSION.
09-28-05, 03:53 PM
#57
Originally Posted by t-von
I say the thread should be left alone. Pricing info is very important to those who don't want to spend an arm and a leg for a set-up similar to someone else. If pricing discussion were all done through Pm's, that limits the effectiveness of this thread. These threads can be about HOW TO instead of just mainly focusing on the DISCUSSION.
09-28-05, 09:36 PM
#58
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Have to make this quick since I need to leave the office...
My main point (and I probably didn't communicate it clear enough) was that when the thread starts talking about very specific costs of very specific components, it's value starts to go down quickly. I would venture to imagine that most here don't care what one member paid for thier throttle body vs. another member (for the record, I paid $425 for my 75 MM Edelbrock).
My main point (and I probably didn't communicate it clear enough) was that when the thread starts talking about very specific costs of very specific components, it's value starts to go down quickly. I would venture to imagine that most here don't care what one member paid for thier throttle body vs. another member (for the record, I paid $425 for my 75 MM Edelbrock).
I try to pull realistic prices (US-centric - sorry) from established vendors and not pull prices cause I can hook-up's; you'd all cry if you found out what I paid for certain parts. :P
-Ted
09-28-05, 09:41 PM
#59
I am 2Furious
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NJ / Philly
Posts: 846
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
imho, this thread is worlds better than the "how to make a beefy n/a" thread in the archive. Didn't pick up nearly as much info from that one.
So, to just sum it up, could someone but down a list, please, of all the major things you'd need, starting from a stock n/a, along with rough prices that the average person without any hookups would have to pay for each?
So, to just sum it up, could someone but down a list, please, of all the major things you'd need, starting from a stock n/a, along with rough prices that the average person without any hookups would have to pay for each?
09-28-05, 11:48 PM
#60
Freedoms worth a buck o'5
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Here is my cost for the intake manifold and throttle system... with no hook ups..
50mm twin throttle body with idle air control and TPS--pick and pull $8.00
2" Mandrel bends mild steel------------Mopac auto supply 2x$11.00=$22.00
Mild steel plate 1/4"x12" Canadian Tire $7.50
Injector Holders sched 80 nipple $1.10
8" fuel rail $8.80
2" rad hose and hose clamps Autovalue $10.80
_____________
58.20
The injectors are an extra set of 1600's I have 76.00x2, most likely I will use a stock fpr with a Pd on this rail from the core parts left over...
Most of the time I pay full retail for stuff, if I buy a crapload I do get a break but its not like full shop price break..Half the battle is knowing the best place to buy stuff..
Sometimes people that ask simple looking questions have more knowledge behind them than you think... You never know what someones background is when they post, they may be more capable than most or know someone that is..I remember when I bought my first FC and asked a few turbo questions and got jumped on by a few notables, well that "newb" now drives a self built T51 car, no thanks to those notables....
Most of the time people just need some starting pointers and some info to get the ball rolling, they come here for knowledge and a few pointers, not to have themselves insulted and belittled...
There is very little cost difference between building a fresh p-port or a fresh 6-port n/a, just some part substitions to get the better parts, the price works out close to the same.. The only expense once could have thats different than mine, is where one sources their p-port housings from..
From racing beat they are something insane like 1000.00 a pop, I like their products and they do excellant R&D, but their p-port housing cost is completely out of whack....
From Japan, A fresh p-port housing that came directly from mazda was 65,000 yen as bought buy a friend of mine, which is like 555.00 US each add about 60.00 shipping to that...They can be ordered with a 3rd spark plug(late trailing) as well for a little more money..You can buy the irons there as well pre-filled from mazda, strangely they are only a wee bit more than standard irons there..
Or you can spend half hour with cam wheel, and caliper and then fit the tubes yourself with a little help with someone with a mill...My total machine bill was 285.00, 150 for the housings, and 135 for some hardened bearing press arbors I had made not really related to this project at all..
The main goal of this for me is to have a light wieght high hp car to drive on the street and go to the roadcourse with..The FC this is going into is a GX model(SE) with very few options and very few comforts, its about 500 lbs lighter than my TII right now and will be lighter once the p-port is fitted.
Once I see how the whole ball of wax works out and learn the tuning dynamics of the motor, I will probably p-port my turbo car...
I was suprised to see how many people street drive p-ports in Japan, with a decent efi setup they run quite nicely on the street...Max
50mm twin throttle body with idle air control and TPS--pick and pull $8.00
2" Mandrel bends mild steel------------Mopac auto supply 2x$11.00=$22.00
Mild steel plate 1/4"x12" Canadian Tire $7.50
Injector Holders sched 80 nipple $1.10
8" fuel rail $8.80
2" rad hose and hose clamps Autovalue $10.80
_____________
58.20
The injectors are an extra set of 1600's I have 76.00x2, most likely I will use a stock fpr with a Pd on this rail from the core parts left over...
Most of the time I pay full retail for stuff, if I buy a crapload I do get a break but its not like full shop price break..Half the battle is knowing the best place to buy stuff..
Sometimes people that ask simple looking questions have more knowledge behind them than you think... You never know what someones background is when they post, they may be more capable than most or know someone that is..I remember when I bought my first FC and asked a few turbo questions and got jumped on by a few notables, well that "newb" now drives a self built T51 car, no thanks to those notables....
Most of the time people just need some starting pointers and some info to get the ball rolling, they come here for knowledge and a few pointers, not to have themselves insulted and belittled...
There is very little cost difference between building a fresh p-port or a fresh 6-port n/a, just some part substitions to get the better parts, the price works out close to the same.. The only expense once could have thats different than mine, is where one sources their p-port housings from..
From racing beat they are something insane like 1000.00 a pop, I like their products and they do excellant R&D, but their p-port housing cost is completely out of whack....
From Japan, A fresh p-port housing that came directly from mazda was 65,000 yen as bought buy a friend of mine, which is like 555.00 US each add about 60.00 shipping to that...They can be ordered with a 3rd spark plug(late trailing) as well for a little more money..You can buy the irons there as well pre-filled from mazda, strangely they are only a wee bit more than standard irons there..
Or you can spend half hour with cam wheel, and caliper and then fit the tubes yourself with a little help with someone with a mill...My total machine bill was 285.00, 150 for the housings, and 135 for some hardened bearing press arbors I had made not really related to this project at all..
The main goal of this for me is to have a light wieght high hp car to drive on the street and go to the roadcourse with..The FC this is going into is a GX model(SE) with very few options and very few comforts, its about 500 lbs lighter than my TII right now and will be lighter once the p-port is fitted.
Once I see how the whole ball of wax works out and learn the tuning dynamics of the motor, I will probably p-port my turbo car...
I was suprised to see how many people street drive p-ports in Japan, with a decent efi setup they run quite nicely on the street...Max
09-29-05, 06:49 PM
#62
Freedoms worth a buck o'5
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Yeah we will have to compare notes once both are running... So yoiu are gonna attempt an e6x with that eh?... How many injectors are you planning on running?..
I went with the 2 injector route so I can run them easily sequentially to get a better idle quality..
I am still undecided on the ecu at this point, there is a little voice in the back of my head that is chanting Motec... But I can get a haltech or autronic easier..decisions decisions..
I have to come up with a way to easily tune the exhaust as well , I think a flanged header so I can just change the collector lengths will be the easiest..max
I went with the 2 injector route so I can run them easily sequentially to get a better idle quality..
I am still undecided on the ecu at this point, there is a little voice in the back of my head that is chanting Motec... But I can get a haltech or autronic easier..decisions decisions..
I have to come up with a way to easily tune the exhaust as well , I think a flanged header so I can just change the collector lengths will be the easiest..max
09-29-05, 08:28 PM
#63
I'm surprised no one has said it yet, 20B!!! Take off the turbos, rebuilt with Non turbo rotors and port it, put a custom header on, and go. Granted, I'm talking about using a 20B core, no turbos, possibly nonrunning, get an Atkins rebuild kit and use S5 nonturbo rotors/new or used, this will give you plenty of power and more to spare.
Just meant to be more of a sarcasm thing, but why not?
It MIGHT be a little cheaper than RETed's estimate, just an idea.
J
Just meant to be more of a sarcasm thing, but why not?
It MIGHT be a little cheaper than RETed's estimate, just an idea.
J
09-29-05, 09:41 PM
#64
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by JDriftM
It MIGHT be a little cheaper than RETed's estimate, just an idea.
Haltech E6K
We've got a ridiculously expensive OS Giken triple plate on it, but when you factor in the rebuild, I'd still estimate it's $7,000 if not creeping up to $10,000...
-Ted
09-30-05, 03:30 AM
#65
What Subscription?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Aiken SC USA
Posts: 5,926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Max, I have 4 injector ports available... Initial thoughts are a 460cc pair of primaries, with a pair of 850cc as secondaries. I notice you are placing your TB ~14-16" away from the port vs the ~4" away that I am.
Initial plan: break in engine and tune on the engine dyno using a carb, then install engine and haltech in the chassis.
Initial plan: break in engine and tune on the engine dyno using a carb, then install engine and haltech in the chassis.
10-03-05, 09:15 AM
#67
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
I'm doing a 12A PP right now.... EMS (Megasquirt most likely)
PS. Can we end the pissing contest already? Rather than debate what is possible for $X, why not wait and see if Max's engine works out?
10-03-05, 11:28 AM
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: no where
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
get rid of your engine and everything about rotory and get a LS1 put headers and intake on it you'll get 300whp!
Put a ls6 intakemanifold, springs and retainers, and mild cams and you'll get 350+whp with good tuning and it'll still be drivable daily, Very reliable, Great gas milage (thinking your still driving an rx7) and still handles like a dream (50-50 with battery in the back).
Oh and about redline not being as high anymore with springs and retainers you get it up to 7500. But i'm playing it save and stopping at 7200.
yes you can get a turbo 2 to get that much hp pretty easily but can you get it to make 300whp with 325lb of torque??? well thats what a v8 can give you.
Oh yah 6speed!
Put a ls6 intakemanifold, springs and retainers, and mild cams and you'll get 350+whp with good tuning and it'll still be drivable daily, Very reliable, Great gas milage (thinking your still driving an rx7) and still handles like a dream (50-50 with battery in the back).
Oh and about redline not being as high anymore with springs and retainers you get it up to 7500. But i'm playing it save and stopping at 7200.
yes you can get a turbo 2 to get that much hp pretty easily but can you get it to make 300whp with 325lb of torque??? well thats what a v8 can give you.
Oh yah 6speed!
10-03-05, 11:33 AM
#71
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dDuB
What exactly do you mean by injector timing? If you're talking about when the secondaries come on, you can set that to whatever you want with the MS.
Edit:
k1n0y: I wouldn't criticize anyone who did an LS1 swap, but lets do a quick comparison. I know Nismo Convert88 is making around 280hp on a stock S5 TII engine with basically an exhaust, intake and Rtech. An LS1 from a Camaro/Firebird is making around 300hp. Do a cost and effort comparison between the two scenerios and it's far less than cut and dry as many would have you believe. I'm just trying to add some perspective.
Last edited by Snrub; 10-03-05 at 11:44 AM.
10-03-05, 12:26 PM
#72
I am the Autoholic
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by k1n0y
get rid of your engine and everything about rotory and get a LS1 put headers and intake on it you'll get 300whp!
Put a ls6 intakemanifold, springs and retainers, and mild cams and you'll get 350+whp with good tuning and it'll still be drivable daily, Very reliable, Great gas milage (thinking your still driving an rx7) and still handles like a dream (50-50 with battery in the back).
Oh and about redline not being as high anymore with springs and retainers you get it up to 7500. But i'm playing it save and stopping at 7200.
yes you can get a turbo 2 to get that much hp pretty easily but can you get it to make 300whp with 325lb of torque??? well thats what a v8 can give you.
Oh yah 6speed!
Put a ls6 intakemanifold, springs and retainers, and mild cams and you'll get 350+whp with good tuning and it'll still be drivable daily, Very reliable, Great gas milage (thinking your still driving an rx7) and still handles like a dream (50-50 with battery in the back).
Oh and about redline not being as high anymore with springs and retainers you get it up to 7500. But i'm playing it save and stopping at 7200.
yes you can get a turbo 2 to get that much hp pretty easily but can you get it to make 300whp with 325lb of torque??? well thats what a v8 can give you.
Oh yah 6speed!
10-03-05, 12:41 PM
#73
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
Originally Posted by Snrub
Does anyone know if there will be any issues using a megasquirt on an engine like this when it has no ability to adjust injector timing?
