Another "How much Horsepower will I make if..." Thread
08-22-11, 12:41 PM
#28
so, I just thought I'd update this thread...
There was an enormous wait to get into the shop, and now it's taken almost 3 weeks but I'm supposed to get my car back THIS WEEKEND! and it will be tuned! I may be a little over excited, but screw it. My car has been down for almost a year and I need me some sweet boost lovin'!
Will update this thread with the actual numbers when I have them, but feel free to speculate some more about how much power I will make.
There was an enormous wait to get into the shop, and now it's taken almost 3 weeks but I'm supposed to get my car back THIS WEEKEND! and it will be tuned! I may be a little over excited, but screw it. My car has been down for almost a year and I need me some sweet boost lovin'!
Will update this thread with the actual numbers when I have them, but feel free to speculate some more about how much power I will make.
09-05-11, 07:40 PM
#29
Well....
Ryan finally got my car running and on the dyno. He spent all day yesterday tuning the thing and today it made 240hp at 10psi when the worst happened.
I spun a bearing and the motor is f#@ked.
Ryan was telling me that I could easily have made 300hp at around 20psi, so I guess we know the limits of this setup. This is with compression in the high 90s on the rear rotor and low 90s on the front rotor and a streetport.
Watching my intake temps was another story though, they would start at around 80 degrees and then climb to over 210 before redline! it comes down to the fact that the stock tmic just cannot handle the job of cooling the air with that turbo. So for the sake of protecting against detonation, or if you dont care about that, more horsepower: don't use the stock tmic with a big hybrid turbo!
anyways... now I have no money left and I have a perfectly tuned car that will run great for about a mile before the engine is garbage... Thinking about swapping in another motor, or maybe parting the car out. I really would like to keep it, but what can you do...
Ryan finally got my car running and on the dyno. He spent all day yesterday tuning the thing and today it made 240hp at 10psi when the worst happened.
I spun a bearing and the motor is f#@ked.
Ryan was telling me that I could easily have made 300hp at around 20psi, so I guess we know the limits of this setup. This is with compression in the high 90s on the rear rotor and low 90s on the front rotor and a streetport.
Watching my intake temps was another story though, they would start at around 80 degrees and then climb to over 210 before redline! it comes down to the fact that the stock tmic just cannot handle the job of cooling the air with that turbo. So for the sake of protecting against detonation, or if you dont care about that, more horsepower: don't use the stock tmic with a big hybrid turbo!
anyways... now I have no money left and I have a perfectly tuned car that will run great for about a mile before the engine is garbage... Thinking about swapping in another motor, or maybe parting the car out. I really would like to keep it, but what can you do...
10-29-11, 09:30 PM
#30
I thought I'd update this sort of improptu build thread I have going here with some GOOD news for once.
MY CAR IS BACK ON THE ROAD!! OMG!
sorry about that... It's just been a loooooong and bumpy road to this point.
I bought a running shortblock locally from 2slow4stock and swapped that bitch in there. There were a few initial hurtles, such as a leaky water pump and some epically confusing timing and ignition issues. But that's all sorted out FINALLY.
The car drives pretty damn well. But it sorely needs a new tune. Basically, I can drive it to work, but no full throttle, or really even half throttle because of angry lean spikes here and there.
anyway, there are no leaks, no smoke, and it holds rock solid idle, so I call it a success
I'm going to get my car tuned this coming weekend, so I'll post up the numbers I get and close this thread on a positive note.
MY CAR IS BACK ON THE ROAD!! OMG!
sorry about that... It's just been a loooooong and bumpy road to this point.
I bought a running shortblock locally from 2slow4stock and swapped that bitch in there. There were a few initial hurtles, such as a leaky water pump and some epically confusing timing and ignition issues. But that's all sorted out FINALLY.
The car drives pretty damn well. But it sorely needs a new tune. Basically, I can drive it to work, but no full throttle, or really even half throttle because of angry lean spikes here and there.
anyway, there are no leaks, no smoke, and it holds rock solid idle, so I call it a success
I'm going to get my car tuned this coming weekend, so I'll post up the numbers I get and close this thread on a positive note.
10-29-11, 10:14 PM
#31
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I did some dyno runs a while back on a similar setup, made 240hp at 9psi, at 5900rpm. That was on a stock s5 turbo.
20psi on that turbo seems a bit much, also, 300 seems real real low. Tell Ryan to up his game a bit.
20psi on that turbo seems a bit much, also, 300 seems real real low. Tell Ryan to up his game a bit.
Well....
Ryan finally got my car running and on the dyno. He spent all day yesterday tuning the thing and today it made 240hp at 10psi when the worst happened.
I spun a bearing and the motor is f#@ked.
Ryan was telling me that I could easily have made 300hp at around 20psi, so I guess we know the limits of this setup. This is with compression in the high 90s on the rear rotor and low 90s on the front rotor and a streetport.
Ryan finally got my car running and on the dyno. He spent all day yesterday tuning the thing and today it made 240hp at 10psi when the worst happened.
I spun a bearing and the motor is f#@ked.
Ryan was telling me that I could easily have made 300hp at around 20psi, so I guess we know the limits of this setup. This is with compression in the high 90s on the rear rotor and low 90s on the front rotor and a streetport.
10-30-11, 01:25 AM
#32
^ I dont want to run any more hp becasue intake temps are out of control with the stock tmic. if it wasn't for that HUGE restriction I could probably make 320-340hp safely. as it is... with intake temps reaching 200 with ice on the IC, I am hesitant to even push it past 16psi.
In the end, I'll trust his judgement though. This tuning crap is all snake magic to me anyway lol
In the end, I'll trust his judgement though. This tuning crap is all snake magic to me anyway lol
10-30-11, 03:06 PM
#34
i'm curious how the shop knew it had a spun bearing. did they analyze the oil and find babbett shavings engulfing the oil?
i just VERY rarely find motors with bearing issues unless it was starved of oil at any point.
could have been an excuse and a tuning error killed the motor.
call me skeptical but something doesn't sound right. been doing this too long and something doesn't add up.
i just VERY rarely find motors with bearing issues unless it was starved of oil at any point.
could have been an excuse and a tuning error killed the motor.
call me skeptical but something doesn't sound right. been doing this too long and something doesn't add up.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-30-11 at 03:08 PM.
10-30-11, 04:41 PM
#35
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This is what I was curious about...
I would think your set-up could pull quite a bit more than 300 HP at 20 PSI. (With a different intercooler set-up, that is.)
If this is your set-up:
Full RB Rev II Turbo-back Exhaust
Streetport
BNR stage 4 Turbo
Haltech e6k
Cone filter intake (no AFM) to stock IC
Venom 255 Fuel Pump
550/720cc Injectors
And my set-up is:
RB Rev TII exhaust *same
Mild streetport *same
BNR stage 4 turbo *same
A'PEXi Power FC
Cone filter (no AFM, obviously) *same
Walbro 255 fuel pump *pretty much same
720/1,600cc injectors
Of course our set-ups differ in many ways, but we also have some similarities.
I have 3mm apex seals, ACT Prolite flywheel, FMIC, and as stated above - bigger fuel injectors.
I guess what I am trying to say... I think you could DEFINITELY pull 300 HP on 10 PSI with a FMIC or V-mount. I pull 322 RWHP at only 12 PSI. So, saying, "So I guess we know the limits of this setup..." Is, to me, completely under-estimating your set-up.
I don't know... Perhaps I am "over-estimating" your fuel injectors. I am no tuner, and not looking to start an argument, or convince you to ditch the TMIC. I am just saying... You have a great set-up with great potential.
I wish you the best of luck!
If this is your set-up:
Full RB Rev II Turbo-back Exhaust
Streetport
BNR stage 4 Turbo
Haltech e6k
Cone filter intake (no AFM) to stock IC
Venom 255 Fuel Pump
550/720cc Injectors
And my set-up is:
RB Rev TII exhaust *same
Mild streetport *same
BNR stage 4 turbo *same
A'PEXi Power FC
Cone filter (no AFM, obviously) *same
Walbro 255 fuel pump *pretty much same
720/1,600cc injectors
Of course our set-ups differ in many ways, but we also have some similarities.
I have 3mm apex seals, ACT Prolite flywheel, FMIC, and as stated above - bigger fuel injectors.
I guess what I am trying to say... I think you could DEFINITELY pull 300 HP on 10 PSI with a FMIC or V-mount. I pull 322 RWHP at only 12 PSI. So, saying, "So I guess we know the limits of this setup..." Is, to me, completely under-estimating your set-up.
I don't know... Perhaps I am "over-estimating" your fuel injectors. I am no tuner, and not looking to start an argument, or convince you to ditch the TMIC. I am just saying... You have a great set-up with great potential.
I wish you the best of luck!
10-30-11, 06:06 PM
#38
yep, a more efficient intercooler will make getting to peak horsepower a much easier job. with 1000 secondaries, 720/720 or larger it should be able to get to 350 without much trouble. the intercooler is going to be the bottleneck here.
as far as 20psi is concerned, you will need race fuel, E85 or auxiliary injection to run it that high. even a stage 4 with a great flowing intake setup will have a difficult time producing power to that PSI level. it is also dangerously close to premium pump gas' auto ignition level.
as far as 20psi is concerned, you will need race fuel, E85 or auxiliary injection to run it that high. even a stage 4 with a great flowing intake setup will have a difficult time producing power to that PSI level. it is also dangerously close to premium pump gas' auto ignition level.
10-30-11, 08:42 PM
#39
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What karack said +1
Spinning a bearing on a rotary is hard to do even when its intentional.
Spinning a bearing on a rotary is hard to do even when its intentional.
i'm curious how the shop knew it had a spun bearing. did they analyze the oil and find babbett shavings engulfing the oil?
i just VERY rarely find motors with bearing issues unless it was starved of oil at any point.
could have been an excuse and a tuning error killed the motor.
call me skeptical but something doesn't sound right. been doing this too long and something doesn't add up.
i just VERY rarely find motors with bearing issues unless it was starved of oil at any point.
could have been an excuse and a tuning error killed the motor.
call me skeptical but something doesn't sound right. been doing this too long and something doesn't add up.
10-31-11, 01:06 AM
#40
Ah, I forgot to mention that I upgraded my injectors after I started this thread. I am now running 1000cc/1000cc Injector Dynamics Injectors.
Also, I wasn't really planning on hitting more than like 18psi just because the high intake temps were concerning me. maybe more like 15psi just to be safe...
Good to hear that's how much power you're making dwb87. Someday when I get a FMIC Our numbers will be just about the same, which is good since mid 300s is my hp goal for a FMIC, my goal now is high 200s, maybe 300 as long as it seems safe to run whatever boost is required to get there. And yes, I have no money right now, so doing any "unnecessary" work on the car will have to wait. That's why I don't have a FMIC.
to what Karack said:
I wasn't actually there when the motor finally died, but I was there only a few minutes later. Basically it just started making a weird metal on metal noise and was down on power. not by a whole lot though, and it still held idle fine and there was no smoke. We drained the oil and there was copper confetti in it so something ruined the bearing. Maybe "spun a bearing" isn't exactly what happened, but the bearings are certainly ruined. Not sure you can get a motor to do that by tuning it...
This also could have been my fault. I left the crank case vent open to the air for months... maybe a spider crawled up in there or something. who knows. The engine is sitting in my garage now, but I haven't pulled it apart yet.
Also, I wasn't really planning on hitting more than like 18psi just because the high intake temps were concerning me. maybe more like 15psi just to be safe...
Good to hear that's how much power you're making dwb87. Someday when I get a FMIC Our numbers will be just about the same, which is good since mid 300s is my hp goal for a FMIC, my goal now is high 200s, maybe 300 as long as it seems safe to run whatever boost is required to get there. And yes, I have no money right now, so doing any "unnecessary" work on the car will have to wait. That's why I don't have a FMIC.
to what Karack said:
I wasn't actually there when the motor finally died, but I was there only a few minutes later. Basically it just started making a weird metal on metal noise and was down on power. not by a whole lot though, and it still held idle fine and there was no smoke. We drained the oil and there was copper confetti in it so something ruined the bearing. Maybe "spun a bearing" isn't exactly what happened, but the bearings are certainly ruined. Not sure you can get a motor to do that by tuning it...
This also could have been my fault. I left the crank case vent open to the air for months... maybe a spider crawled up in there or something. who knows. The engine is sitting in my garage now, but I haven't pulled it apart yet.
10-31-11, 04:28 PM
#42
But I'd like to think I know enough to smell BS. I made him show me evidence to support his claim. And I don't honestly think he COULD have blown my engine like that. Unless he dropped something in the oil? Then again he never changed the oil...
I blame myself, crappy luck, and maybe even my engine builder (different guy... in KY, engine only had 3k on a rebuild), but I have a hard time blaming this guy.
Plus this guy has a good reputation in the local community, and all the rest of the work he's done on my car has been solid.
10-31-11, 04:39 PM
#43
failures usually will show more easily when under severe extremes. i just found it odd as these engines rarely have that sort of failure unless something was wrong inside the engine to start with.
perhaps it had spun a bearing previously and he reused a rotor that shouldn't have been reused
the oil pickup tube or oil pump wasn't properly torqued
the oil pump drive gear wasn't checked and the nut backed off
the bearings were severely worn but reused anyways
the eccentric shaft had some damage that created galling on the bearings
there was excessive debris left in the motor from the build that damaged rotating surfaces
well after listing it all i suppose there is quite a bit that can go wrong, but rarely does.
perhaps it had spun a bearing previously and he reused a rotor that shouldn't have been reused
the oil pickup tube or oil pump wasn't properly torqued
the oil pump drive gear wasn't checked and the nut backed off
the bearings were severely worn but reused anyways
the eccentric shaft had some damage that created galling on the bearings
there was excessive debris left in the motor from the build that damaged rotating surfaces
well after listing it all i suppose there is quite a bit that can go wrong, but rarely does.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-31-11 at 04:42 PM.
10-31-11, 05:07 PM
#44
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I think the term "spun bearing" was actually used when it should not have been. He meant to say "ruined bearings" They will find out the how when they tear it down.
Ive taken apart lots of j-specs where the stat gears and rotors have trouble comming off the e-shaft. Rust has formed in the center of the bearing on the e-shaft creating a slight oxidation ridge/ring enough to make it hard to pull them off the e-shaft.
Now take an engine like that and instead of cleaning it up and rebuilding it imagine it goes on a dyno with a big turbo. The clearence of the endplay is more than enough to knock off some oxidation deposits and the oil pressue pushes them into the bearing clearence. viola, unhappy gaulled bearings and a drainpan full of shavings.
Its manly to say "welp I dun spun me a bearing" and thats what gets repeated till its accepted by all involved.
Ive taken apart lots of j-specs where the stat gears and rotors have trouble comming off the e-shaft. Rust has formed in the center of the bearing on the e-shaft creating a slight oxidation ridge/ring enough to make it hard to pull them off the e-shaft.
Now take an engine like that and instead of cleaning it up and rebuilding it imagine it goes on a dyno with a big turbo. The clearence of the endplay is more than enough to knock off some oxidation deposits and the oil pressue pushes them into the bearing clearence. viola, unhappy gaulled bearings and a drainpan full of shavings.
Its manly to say "welp I dun spun me a bearing" and thats what gets repeated till its accepted by all involved.
failures usually will show more easily when under severe extremes. i just found it odd as these engines rarely have that sort of failure unless something was wrong inside the engine to start with.
perhaps it had spun a bearing previously and he reused a rotor that shouldn't have been reused
the oil pickup tube or oil pump wasn't properly torqued
the oil pump drive gear wasn't checked and the nut backed off
the bearings were severely worn but reused anyways
the eccentric shaft had some damage that created galling on the bearings
there was excessive debris left in the motor from the build that damaged rotating surfaces
well after listing it all i suppose there is quite a bit that can go wrong, but rarely does.
perhaps it had spun a bearing previously and he reused a rotor that shouldn't have been reused
the oil pickup tube or oil pump wasn't properly torqued
the oil pump drive gear wasn't checked and the nut backed off
the bearings were severely worn but reused anyways
the eccentric shaft had some damage that created galling on the bearings
there was excessive debris left in the motor from the build that damaged rotating surfaces
well after listing it all i suppose there is quite a bit that can go wrong, but rarely does.
10-31-11, 06:02 PM
#45
I think the term "spun bearing" was actually used when it should not have been. He meant to say "ruined bearings" They will find out the how when they tear it down.
Ive taken apart lots of j-specs where the stat gears and rotors have trouble comming off the e-shaft. Rust has formed in the center of the bearing on the e-shaft creating a slight oxidation ridge/ring enough to make it hard to pull them off the e-shaft.
Now take an engine like that and instead of cleaning it up and rebuilding it imagine it goes on a dyno with a big turbo. The clearence of the endplay is more than enough to knock off some oxidation deposits and the oil pressue pushes them into the bearing clearence. viola, unhappy gaulled bearings and a drainpan full of shavings.
Ive taken apart lots of j-specs where the stat gears and rotors have trouble comming off the e-shaft. Rust has formed in the center of the bearing on the e-shaft creating a slight oxidation ridge/ring enough to make it hard to pull them off the e-shaft.
Now take an engine like that and instead of cleaning it up and rebuilding it imagine it goes on a dyno with a big turbo. The clearence of the endplay is more than enough to knock off some oxidation deposits and the oil pressue pushes them into the bearing clearence. viola, unhappy gaulled bearings and a drainpan full of shavings.
I think you and Karack are right. I think I used the term "spun bearing" incorrectly and I really meant ruined bearing. I thought MORE people would understand spun bearing than ruined bearing, and to be honest, I didn't really know the difference, but I guess I was wrong.
11-14-11, 10:24 AM
#48
awww yeaaaaaa
All it took was another engine lol, but my baby is back!
and yes... the graph looks like crap, but I assure you my curve feels good. And yes I did already manage to spill coolant on it after only 2 hours...
This is at 15psi. I could turn up the boost more but intake temps were reaching 180 degrees and I didn't want to push my luck. I think they'll be quite a bit lower on the road because of the much improved airflow but why take chances eh?
When I get a FMIC I will probably gain like 30-40 HP because of the better flow/lower intake temps/higher boost. But this is plenty of fun for now.
also speaking to the injector confusion: I HAVE NEW INJECTORS!!!
1000/1000 Injector Dynamics Injectors! There is plenty of fuel.