another exhaust thread...WHAT YIELDS THE MOST POWER!?
#1
i am legendary
Thread Starter
another exhaust thread...WHAT YIELDS THE MOST POWER!?
before anyone tells me to use the "search" feature i already have and am just as confused...
alright so, after extensive reading/research on this forum it just seems like everyone has a different opinion...right now i have the RB header to presilencer to hks dual mufflers, but i have to pass emissions next sept so im going to be putting the bonez cat in there, now when i do that i was thinking about redoing my exhaust to yield the most power i can...at first i was going to get dual n1's but the loud factor seems too bad so i would have to use silencers and that kinda defeats the purpose after i put those on...so i did a lot more reading and research on the internet, and for a while i was thinking that the bonez cat 2.5 in/out with 2.5" piping to a magnaflow 4" round muffler 2.5 in/out with 2.5" piping to 3" chrome tips however my problem is i dont know if that would even be better than the mufflers i have now? or if there is a better magnaflow muffler to use? or is there is a better system to use? does anyone really know what mufflers or system or pipe size actually yields the most power on an N/A?
any suggestions and help would be great...im so confused...
alright so, after extensive reading/research on this forum it just seems like everyone has a different opinion...right now i have the RB header to presilencer to hks dual mufflers, but i have to pass emissions next sept so im going to be putting the bonez cat in there, now when i do that i was thinking about redoing my exhaust to yield the most power i can...at first i was going to get dual n1's but the loud factor seems too bad so i would have to use silencers and that kinda defeats the purpose after i put those on...so i did a lot more reading and research on the internet, and for a while i was thinking that the bonez cat 2.5 in/out with 2.5" piping to a magnaflow 4" round muffler 2.5 in/out with 2.5" piping to 3" chrome tips however my problem is i dont know if that would even be better than the mufflers i have now? or if there is a better magnaflow muffler to use? or is there is a better system to use? does anyone really know what mufflers or system or pipe size actually yields the most power on an N/A?
any suggestions and help would be great...im so confused...
#4
Eat Rice Don't Drive it.
iTrader: (3)
its called the OL switcheroo.
JUst keep the high flow cat setup you will have and get true duals. or make your own like two of the members here have done.
Refer to this thread for the vids: https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=224056 MAX's car is the one with magnaflow cans. Mine has true duals. I think its pretty easy to decide which one is quieter. I have also beaten MAX in a race so I don't doubt the true duals power.
JUst keep the high flow cat setup you will have and get true duals. or make your own like two of the members here have done.
Refer to this thread for the vids: https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=224056 MAX's car is the one with magnaflow cans. Mine has true duals. I think its pretty easy to decide which one is quieter. I have also beaten MAX in a race so I don't doubt the true duals power.
#5
i am legendary
Thread Starter
yah i dont doubt that true duals would yield the most power, but i dont have a lift or welder or all the tools needed to put in and take out the exhaust systems each time i need to pass emissions, so that'd be difficult for me
#6
mad scientist
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
MAX Power+bolt on= True duals. Anyone trys to tell you otherwise better have proof.
MAX Power+bolt on= True duals. Anyone trys to tell you otherwise better have proof.
Ill argue physics with you all day, and you wont win. So until you get a dyno graph of true duals compared to a full, collected exhaust, you have NOTHING.
#7
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iTrader: (3)
Well consider this: once every year for one day(probably around 5 hours total) All you need is a jack and two stands. Other than that just the normal tools you use for the exhaust install. I would rather buy from mazdatrix since I am also sans welder or skills for it. Take around 1 hour to remove the duals, an hour for the other setup, hour for the test, another hour for removal of the other setup, and an hour for the duals again. Aloow another 15-30 minutes for exhaust leak checks and your don't in less than 6 hours. Not bad for ultimate bolt on eh?
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#8
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iTrader: (3)
Originally posted by mazdaspeed7
Wheres your proof?!?!
Ill argue physics with you all day, and you wont win. So until you get a dyno graph of true duals compared to a full, collected exhaust, you have NOTHING.
Wheres your proof?!?!
Ill argue physics with you all day, and you wont win. So until you get a dyno graph of true duals compared to a full, collected exhaust, you have NOTHING.
#9
i am legendary
Thread Starter
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
Well consider this: once every year for one day(probably around 5 hours total) All you need is a jack and two stands. Other than that just the normal tools you use for the exhaust install. I would rather buy from mazdatrix since I am also sans welder or skills for it. Take around 1 hour to remove the duals, an hour for the other setup, hour for the test, another hour for removal of the other setup, and an hour for the duals again. Aloow another 15-30 minutes for exhaust leak checks and your don't in less than 6 hours. Not bad for ultimate bolt on eh?
Well consider this: once every year for one day(probably around 5 hours total) All you need is a jack and two stands. Other than that just the normal tools you use for the exhaust install. I would rather buy from mazdatrix since I am also sans welder or skills for it. Take around 1 hour to remove the duals, an hour for the other setup, hour for the test, another hour for removal of the other setup, and an hour for the duals again. Aloow another 15-30 minutes for exhaust leak checks and your don't in less than 6 hours. Not bad for ultimate bolt on eh?
well, first of all i have no jacks or stands lol...second, by the "tools you use for the exhaust install" i assume you think i'd be putting the exhaust system in myself? that'd be another no =/ im gonna be going to a shop to have em weld everything in for me cuz ill be getting custom piping made...it seems cheaper to buy the cat myself, buy the muffler/s myself and go to a shop and have them do the piping for me
#10
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iTrader: (3)
Originally posted by dDuB
well, first of all i have no jacks or stands lol...second, by the "tools you use for the exhaust install" i assume you think i'd be putting the exhaust system in myself? that'd be another no =/ im gonna be going to a shop to have em weld everything in for me cuz ill be getting custom piping made...it seems cheaper to buy the cat myself, buy the muffler/s myself and go to a shop and have them do the piping for me
well, first of all i have no jacks or stands lol...second, by the "tools you use for the exhaust install" i assume you think i'd be putting the exhaust system in myself? that'd be another no =/ im gonna be going to a shop to have em weld everything in for me cuz ill be getting custom piping made...it seems cheaper to buy the cat myself, buy the muffler/s myself and go to a shop and have them do the piping for me
Jack and jack stands= 40$ plus tax. Simple tool kit=20$ plus tax.
And I would think you could do it in your garage or your front lawn if need be.
#11
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iTrader: (3)
mazdaspeed7- It was the same road same temp same time of day. His car has LESS miles than mine and his tranny and differential are in better condition than mine. He also has newer tires and an LSD rear end. Add to that a light TII hood. I also usually have tons of junk in my car so that negates the weight redux I have done.
Mazdatrix has a dynograph. I still have NO reason to doubt them. If you doubt them then I don't see any reason why you would not doubt me on the same thing.
Mazdatrix has a dynograph. I still have NO reason to doubt them. If you doubt them then I don't see any reason why you would not doubt me on the same thing.
#12
mad scientist
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
mazdaspeed7- It was the same road same temp same time of day. His car has LESS miles than mine and his tranny and differential are in better condition than mine. He also has newer tires and an LSD rear end. Add to that a light TII hood. I also usually have tons of junk in my car so that negates the weight redux I have done.
Mazdatrix has a dynograph. I still have NO reason to doubt them. If you doubt them then I don't see any reason why you would not doubt me on the same thing.
mazdaspeed7- It was the same road same temp same time of day. His car has LESS miles than mine and his tranny and differential are in better condition than mine. He also has newer tires and an LSD rear end. Add to that a light TII hood. I also usually have tons of junk in my car so that negates the weight redux I have done.
Mazdatrix has a dynograph. I still have NO reason to doubt them. If you doubt them then I don't see any reason why you would not doubt me on the same thing.
Physics it is...
First, true duals have considerable more surface area alogn the pipes than a collected exhaust. More surface area means more friction with the flowing gasses, which slows them down, adding to back pressure. Next, true duals are NOT tuned. They totally throw exhaust tuning out the window. You cant go wrong. A collected exhaust, onthe other hand, utilizes the pulses to scavenge exhaust gasses out of the chamber. It only works within a certain RPM range, but within that range, it will ALWAYS make more power than a true dual. Also, it can be tuned to where you want it.
So tell me again why true duals are better?
#13
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iTrader: (3)
I don't have funds to buy or make a collected exhaust and drag all that stuff to san antonio to dyno it. Not to mention money for fuel, hotel room, food, and the dyno.
I know and admit that the collected makes better peek HP but what about the other RPMs? lol how big is this RANGE?
And it is just like a grading scale man. Mazdatrix has SOMETHING the collected guys like you have NOTHING. Their data beats your NO data. so mazdatrix gets say a 50 and you all get a 0 for no "work shown" lol
True duals also sound a hell of a lot quieter. I have videos to proove it now. the drone from a collected exhaust is just horrible. I would wagger to say you would get a ticket for it.
I don't really need much more proof that they are better since I beat max exahsut for exhaust. Back when I had the stock intake.
I know and admit that the collected makes better peek HP but what about the other RPMs? lol how big is this RANGE?
And it is just like a grading scale man. Mazdatrix has SOMETHING the collected guys like you have NOTHING. Their data beats your NO data. so mazdatrix gets say a 50 and you all get a 0 for no "work shown" lol
True duals also sound a hell of a lot quieter. I have videos to proove it now. the drone from a collected exhaust is just horrible. I would wagger to say you would get a ticket for it.
I don't really need much more proof that they are better since I beat max exahsut for exhaust. Back when I had the stock intake.
#14
mad scientist
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
I don't have funds to buy or make a collected exhaust and drag all that stuff to san antonio to dyno it. Not to mention money for fuel, hotel room, food, and the dyno.
I know and admit that the collected makes better peek HP but what about the other RPMs? lol how big is this RANGE?
And it is just like a grading scale man. Mazdatrix has SOMETHING the collected guys like you have NOTHING. Their data beats your NO data. so mazdatrix gets say a 50 and you all get a 0 for no "work shown" lol
True duals also sound a hell of a lot quieter. I have videos to proove it now. the drone from a collected exhaust is just horrible. I would wagger to say you would get a ticket for it.
I don't have funds to buy or make a collected exhaust and drag all that stuff to san antonio to dyno it. Not to mention money for fuel, hotel room, food, and the dyno.
I know and admit that the collected makes better peek HP but what about the other RPMs? lol how big is this RANGE?
And it is just like a grading scale man. Mazdatrix has SOMETHING the collected guys like you have NOTHING. Their data beats your NO data. so mazdatrix gets say a 50 and you all get a 0 for no "work shown" lol
True duals also sound a hell of a lot quieter. I have videos to proove it now. the drone from a collected exhaust is just horrible. I would wagger to say you would get a ticket for it.
I don't really need much more proof that they are better since I beat max exahsut for exhaust. Back when I had the stock intake.
You have not brought up ANY valid points from a physics standpoint. Physics can explain everything that determines power in an exhaust, and unless youre looking for exact numbers, its not even that involved. You can still compare though. Its obvious which one is better by which has more positives and less negatives.
#15
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iTrader: (3)
Originally posted by mazdaspeed7
No data? Tell me some physics behind why true duals are better. I just listed a lot for collected exhausts, but you have NOTHING. The mazdatrix dyno is NOTHING. Dont even get me started on sound. My friends unmuffled, collected FC sounded better than my true duals. Every one of my friends agreed too. The drone is from the wrong choice of mufflers. My true duals ring 10 times worse than any collected exhaust Ive seen. Do you enjoy sounding like a dirt bike or weedeater? I would prefer my car to actually sound like a car...
Would you like a cookie? There are countless variables. Did you test both exhausts ont he same car? If not, how can you say that your exhaust made more power. Your car may have, but you have no reason to assume it was your exhaust.
You have not brought up ANY valid points from a physics standpoint. Physics can explain everything that determines power in an exhaust, and unless youre looking for exact numbers, its not even that involved. You can still compare though. Its obvious which one is better by which has more positives and less negatives.
No data? Tell me some physics behind why true duals are better. I just listed a lot for collected exhausts, but you have NOTHING. The mazdatrix dyno is NOTHING. Dont even get me started on sound. My friends unmuffled, collected FC sounded better than my true duals. Every one of my friends agreed too. The drone is from the wrong choice of mufflers. My true duals ring 10 times worse than any collected exhaust Ive seen. Do you enjoy sounding like a dirt bike or weedeater? I would prefer my car to actually sound like a car...
Would you like a cookie? There are countless variables. Did you test both exhausts ont he same car? If not, how can you say that your exhaust made more power. Your car may have, but you have no reason to assume it was your exhaust.
You have not brought up ANY valid points from a physics standpoint. Physics can explain everything that determines power in an exhaust, and unless youre looking for exact numbers, its not even that involved. You can still compare though. Its obvious which one is better by which has more positives and less negatives.
My car doesn't need to sound like a piston engine car for me to be satisfied. Its a rotary and sounds different. MAX's car doesn't sound like a piston engine car. It sounds loud and annoying just like all the single exhausts I have heard comming from N/a's. Physiscs ok well I am not an A+ student in that subject but you didn't state any numbers, formulas, or test results. That to me is just a theory not DATA. DATA means numbers to me not what SHOULD or DOES happen. A number speaks with power a formula doesn't at least to me. The last time I checked a dynograph was a valid way to rate the HP gained by using a specific exhaust. That IS data. Like I said I still have NO reason to think they changed **** around or tinkered with other things to gain 35hp out of them.
About my coparison to MAX's car it is obvious that it is not a gaurantee that the duals make more power but its a real test on the road. MAX weighs about the same as I do and we both had exhausts and some weight reduction. that is pretty good for me. I didn't win by a SMALL margin either.
#18
mad scientist
Proven theories speak just as loud as numbers, sometimes louder. Are you going to dispute ANY of the theories I posted?
Powerband? Me and a friend made the collector for his S4. There was a small power loss below 3K rpm, but from there past redline, it screamed. The midrange and top end was significantly improved.
About the race with your friend. Theres ten thousand variables aside from the exhaust. You car isnt identical, your motor isnt identical, etc.
And once you throw ported motors into the mix, true duals are even worse. My true duals were acceptable when I had a stock ported motor. Now, its nothing but a nuisance.
Powerband? Me and a friend made the collector for his S4. There was a small power loss below 3K rpm, but from there past redline, it screamed. The midrange and top end was significantly improved.
About the race with your friend. Theres ten thousand variables aside from the exhaust. You car isnt identical, your motor isnt identical, etc.
And once you throw ported motors into the mix, true duals are even worse. My true duals were acceptable when I had a stock ported motor. Now, its nothing but a nuisance.
#19
mad scientist
And in the end, the numbers still have to play by the rules set by the theories, so theyre useless without the theories. So are you going to try to dispute ANY of the theories I posted, or post some that back up your point of view?
#20
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iTrader: (3)
Originally posted by mazdaspeed7
Proven theories speak just as loud as numbers, sometimes louder. Are you going to dispute ANY of the theories I posted?
Powerband? Me and a friend made the collector for his S4. There was a small power loss below 3K rpm, but from there past redline, it screamed. The midrange and top end was significantly improved.
About the race with your friend. Theres ten thousand variables aside from the exhaust. You car isnt identical, your motor isnt identical, etc.
And once you throw ported motors into the mix, true duals are even worse. My true duals were acceptable when I had a stock ported motor. Now, its nothing but a nuisance.
Proven theories speak just as loud as numbers, sometimes louder. Are you going to dispute ANY of the theories I posted?
Powerband? Me and a friend made the collector for his S4. There was a small power loss below 3K rpm, but from there past redline, it screamed. The midrange and top end was significantly improved.
About the race with your friend. Theres ten thousand variables aside from the exhaust. You car isnt identical, your motor isnt identical, etc.
And once you throw ported motors into the mix, true duals are even worse. My true duals were acceptable when I had a stock ported motor. Now, its nothing but a nuisance.
So your saying that a SPECIFIC RPM range is a 4000 RPM range? that is really specific isn't it. Define smal power loss and screamed. I don't remember reading those in physics class or on a dyno chrat ever. nor significantly.
Like I said. That was only proof to me. since we were and still are at close stages of modification. But undoubtedly his and my engine are not the same. but I would rate his car in better condition than mine.
I didn't say anything about ported engines The true duals are made for stock ports and will not be efficient with large or extreme porting. Although I remember reading Rob from pine apple racing uses true duals on peripheral ported engines.
#21
mad scientist
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
I like numbers better.
So your saying that a SPECIFIC RPM range is a 4000 RPM range? that is really specific isn't it. Define smal power loss and screamed. I don't remember reading those in physics class or on a dyno chrat ever. nor significantly.
Like I said. That was only proof to me. since we were and still are at close stages of modification. But undoubtedly his and my engine are not the same. but I would rate his car in better condition than mine.
I didn't say anything about ported engines The true duals are made for stock ports and will not be efficient with large or extreme porting. Although I remember reading Rob from pine apple racing uses true duals on peripheral ported engines.
I like numbers better.
So your saying that a SPECIFIC RPM range is a 4000 RPM range? that is really specific isn't it. Define smal power loss and screamed. I don't remember reading those in physics class or on a dyno chrat ever. nor significantly.
Like I said. That was only proof to me. since we were and still are at close stages of modification. But undoubtedly his and my engine are not the same. but I would rate his car in better condition than mine.
I didn't say anything about ported engines The true duals are made for stock ports and will not be efficient with large or extreme porting. Although I remember reading Rob from pine apple racing uses true duals on peripheral ported engines.
My friends collector was tuned for 6K rpm. Which is right in the middle of the powerband. The powerband is easily broad enough you dont catch a bad spot when you shift. Drivability is no worse than true duals.
Read my previous post about numbers. Numbers are just numbers. The theories are what determine how the numbers act.
Arguing this subjective stuff is bullshit. You want to prove a point, get to learning. You havent brought up anything scientific that gives an edge to true duals.
#22
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iTrader: (3)
Originally posted by mazdaspeed7
And in the end, the numbers still have to play by the rules set by the theories, so theyre useless without the theories. So are you going to try to dispute ANY of the theories I posted, or post some that back up your point of view?
And in the end, the numbers still have to play by the rules set by the theories, so theyre useless without the theories. So are you going to try to dispute ANY of the theories I posted, or post some that back up your point of view?
I already stated that I am not good nor am I taking physics in my college classes at this moment so I wouldn't even know where to start to counter your arguement or theory(s).
But like I said. PEAK HP goes off to the tuned exhaust if your theory is correct. But I would really like to see proof that a TUNED range is 4000RPMs in width, the added friction will make the duals less powerfull than a collected exhaust, and I want to see the numbers and how you got there. PROOF can't be denied. Given proof of all of that you can take your prize and go home with it. But in the many threads since you started this with me you have yet to provide that elusive proof or data that will stand up for your claim. Remember I offerend you a great deal. 1300 dollars I beleive for a tuned collected exhaust that out matched the true duals. Money for the taking given your theory. But you didn't take me up on it. You said you had nothing to proove but you keep saying you have proof. You have had several chances. Now let us have it.
Again show me WHO makes a better setup than the true duals or WHERE I can get the setup from. Wouldn't it be easy for a big name brand exhaust company to make a FULL collected and TUNEd exhaust that would be cheaper, better, and more affordable than the duals? I think we would have seen it long ago don't you?
#23
mad scientist
Just in case anyone else reading this thread doesnt know, I have true duals right now, and not a day goes by when I dont regret spending that money. I have personal experience with both, and collected is the ONLY way I will ever go. Im not trying to force my opinions on anyone, but I want the facts to be there. I cannot stand to see people spread misinformation.
#24
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iTrader: (3)
MS7 if its so easy to make a tune exhaust why haven't you sold your true duals and made yourself a collected one?
And why don't you get a video for us all. I want to hear the dirt bike. I don't think my car sounds like a dirt bike. Most people comment on how nice my car sounds. Not one person: import or domestic has said ONE not even ONE word about my exhaust that makes it sound bad or loud.
Listen to clips of the corksport cat-back, APEXi both N1's and GT are all louder than the true duals. What muffler would you use to not make them sound like crazy weed wachers? the single and collected exhausts I have listened to with the exception of one all sound like crap. Noisy and loud.
And why don't you get a video for us all. I want to hear the dirt bike. I don't think my car sounds like a dirt bike. Most people comment on how nice my car sounds. Not one person: import or domestic has said ONE not even ONE word about my exhaust that makes it sound bad or loud.
Listen to clips of the corksport cat-back, APEXi both N1's and GT are all louder than the true duals. What muffler would you use to not make them sound like crazy weed wachers? the single and collected exhausts I have listened to with the exception of one all sound like crap. Noisy and loud.
#25
mad scientist
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
I will not dispute anything that is FACT. but can you please show us all how much the FRICTION will detract from power. And show us the formulas and all the rest of the computations for comming up with these figures. I don't think I have ever seen them.
I will not dispute anything that is FACT. but can you please show us all how much the FRICTION will detract from power. And show us the formulas and all the rest of the computations for comming up with these figures. I don't think I have ever seen them.
Its not worth my time to dig up numbers. ALL that matters is that there IS more friction with true duals, and singles WILL flow better for a given cross sectional area.
I already stated that I am not good nor am I taking physics in my college classes at this moment so I wouldn't even know where to start to counter your arguement or theory(s).
But like I said. PEAK HP goes off to the tuned exhaust if your theory is correct. But I would really like to see proof that a TUNED range is 4000RPMs in width, the added friction will make the duals less powerfull than a collected exhaust, and I want to see the numbers and how you got there. PROOF can't be denied. Given proof of all of that you can take your prize and go home with it. But in the many threads since you started this with me you have yet to provide that elusive proof or data that will stand up for your claim. Remember I offerend you a great deal. 1300 dollars I beleive for a tuned collected exhaust that out matched the true duals. Money for the taking given your theory. But you didn't take me up on it. You said you had nothing to proove but you keep saying you have proof. You have had several chances. Now let us have it.
Again show me WHO makes a better setup than the true duals or WHERE I can get the setup from. Wouldn't it be easy for a big name brand exhaust company to make a FULL collected and TUNEd exhaust that would be cheaper, better, and more affordable than the duals? I think we would have seen it long ago don't you?
Again show me WHO makes a better setup than the true duals or WHERE I can get the setup from. Wouldn't it be easy for a big name brand exhaust company to make a FULL collected and TUNEd exhaust that would be cheaper, better, and more affordable than the duals? I think we would have seen it long ago don't you?
You want proof? The proof is in the theories. The numbers wont make the theories change.