Aluminum FC Oil Pans
12-02-05, 01:57 PM
#26
Originally Posted by tonybcrazy
I dont think very much R&D weninto making that thing otherwise they would be able to say exactly how much oil it could hold. Thats why I asked.
Also how much do you know about aluminum casting? I happen to know a lot since I took a class on it last spring and as independent study over the summer. I toured a casting facility which taught me a lot. Also my project in the class was developing a sand casting pattern of a turbo charger exhaust housing prototyped in aluminum and also creating the mold neccesary to create the core for the internal void. After I had made all my own tooling I loaded a furnace packed sand molds and cast parts. If anyone wants to see picture of this **** as proof IM me at tonybcrazy on aim and ill send em. Anyways green sand casting is the least expensive casting process and is used for such parts.
I really dont want to get into a flamefest but or a internet dick sizing contest but the facts are that that doesn't appear to have a lot of R&D in it nor does it have any features that are worthwhile to justify that cost. A welded aluminum pan would also stand a better chance of just deforming when hit by something rather than cracking / shattering. Also unless that thing has been properly heat treated there is no way in hell it will add any stiffness to anything because as cast aluminum has very poor material properties. And lastly I know that typical markup on performance car parts is 400%.
Also how much do you know about aluminum casting? I happen to know a lot since I took a class on it last spring and as independent study over the summer. I toured a casting facility which taught me a lot. Also my project in the class was developing a sand casting pattern of a turbo charger exhaust housing prototyped in aluminum and also creating the mold neccesary to create the core for the internal void. After I had made all my own tooling I loaded a furnace packed sand molds and cast parts. If anyone wants to see picture of this **** as proof IM me at tonybcrazy on aim and ill send em. Anyways green sand casting is the least expensive casting process and is used for such parts.
I really dont want to get into a flamefest but or a internet dick sizing contest but the facts are that that doesn't appear to have a lot of R&D in it nor does it have any features that are worthwhile to justify that cost. A welded aluminum pan would also stand a better chance of just deforming when hit by something rather than cracking / shattering. Also unless that thing has been properly heat treated there is no way in hell it will add any stiffness to anything because as cast aluminum has very poor material properties. And lastly I know that typical markup on performance car parts is 400%.
12-02-05, 02:03 PM
#27
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
OK...
Here's the dilly yo..
Zkeller had a similar Oil pan on his FD.. made by another company...
Nice..... held a quart more oil, and had the cooling fins and the o-ring
BUT.. there is one problem with the O-Ring and it doesn't have anything to do with the PAN...
If your MOTOR is not decked properly on the bottom.. IE if the plates and housings don't line up on the mating surfaces properly.... the O-ring will not seal properly... and it will LEAK like a stuck pig.....
Like I said.. has NOTING to do with the pan and can be solved by a dab of RTV on the offending jiont.
Here's the dilly yo..
Zkeller had a similar Oil pan on his FD.. made by another company...
Nice..... held a quart more oil, and had the cooling fins and the o-ring
BUT.. there is one problem with the O-Ring and it doesn't have anything to do with the PAN...
If your MOTOR is not decked properly on the bottom.. IE if the plates and housings don't line up on the mating surfaces properly.... the O-ring will not seal properly... and it will LEAK like a stuck pig.....
Like I said.. has NOTING to do with the pan and can be solved by a dab of RTV on the offending jiont.
I'm In on this one
and to whoever said that was too much money.... Ummm.. I thought that was pretty CHEAP... you know how much R&D time had to go into making that thing???? Yeah, casting aluminim is cheaper than cutting it from billet... BUT.. the only way you can make them cheaper is to MASS PRODUCE THEM... were talking THOUSANDS of units so that the TOTAL gross income from the sales of the unit will offset the cost of the R&D phase...
We all know, they won't be selling enough of these to make it profitable if the price was any lower... WHY.. not that many FC's out there WITH owners willing to drop the cash on a bitchin oil pan... (thats also why you don't see many other products for the FC... cheap assed FC owners!!!!)
and to whoever said that was too much money.... Ummm.. I thought that was pretty CHEAP... you know how much R&D time had to go into making that thing???? Yeah, casting aluminim is cheaper than cutting it from billet... BUT.. the only way you can make them cheaper is to MASS PRODUCE THEM... were talking THOUSANDS of units so that the TOTAL gross income from the sales of the unit will offset the cost of the R&D phase...
We all know, they won't be selling enough of these to make it profitable if the price was any lower... WHY.. not that many FC's out there WITH owners willing to drop the cash on a bitchin oil pan... (thats also why you don't see many other products for the FC... cheap assed FC owners!!!!)
12-02-05, 02:41 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by tonybcrazy
I dont think very much R&D weninto making that thing otherwise they would be able to say exactly how much oil it could hold. Thats why I asked.
Also how much do you know about aluminum casting? I happen to know a lot since I took a class on it last spring and as independent study over the summer. I toured a casting facility which taught me a lot. Also my project in the class was developing a sand casting pattern of a turbo charger exhaust housing prototyped in aluminum and also creating the mold neccesary to create the core for the internal void. After I had made all my own tooling I loaded a furnace packed sand molds and cast parts. If anyone wants to see picture of this **** as proof IM me at tonybcrazy on aim and ill send em. Anyways green sand casting is the least expensive casting process and is used for such parts.
I really dont want to get into a flamefest but or a internet dick sizing contest but the facts are that that doesn't appear to have a lot of R&D in it nor does it have any features that are worthwhile to justify that cost. A welded aluminum pan would also stand a better chance of just deforming when hit by something rather than cracking / shattering. Also unless that thing has been properly heat treated there is no way in hell it will add any stiffness to anything because as cast aluminum has very poor material properties. And lastly I know that typical markup on performance car parts is 400%.
Also how much do you know about aluminum casting? I happen to know a lot since I took a class on it last spring and as independent study over the summer. I toured a casting facility which taught me a lot. Also my project in the class was developing a sand casting pattern of a turbo charger exhaust housing prototyped in aluminum and also creating the mold neccesary to create the core for the internal void. After I had made all my own tooling I loaded a furnace packed sand molds and cast parts. If anyone wants to see picture of this **** as proof IM me at tonybcrazy on aim and ill send em. Anyways green sand casting is the least expensive casting process and is used for such parts.
I really dont want to get into a flamefest but or a internet dick sizing contest but the facts are that that doesn't appear to have a lot of R&D in it nor does it have any features that are worthwhile to justify that cost. A welded aluminum pan would also stand a better chance of just deforming when hit by something rather than cracking / shattering. Also unless that thing has been properly heat treated there is no way in hell it will add any stiffness to anything because as cast aluminum has very poor material properties. And lastly I know that typical markup on performance car parts is 400%.
My grandfather owned one of the largest aluminum foundaries in Los Angeles for over 25 years so that makes me a grand master. You idiot, go play with your 86 base Rx7.
Last edited by LS1FC; 12-02-05 at 02:44 PM.
12-02-05, 03:46 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by Blake
Was that the Ground Zero pan? We designed it but GZ manufactures it. There was a problem with one batch of them where the o-ring did not clear the corner where the rear plate meets the rear rotor housing...it is unusually tight due to the placement of the bolt hole and their machinist did not quite get the o-ring groove positioned to our specs. There were a few cases of leaks until they fixed the programming error. Even so, you are correct that the engine needs to be pretty flat to begin with but it should not present a problem in 99% of the cases. While it is customary to spec a 70% o-ring groove depth, this pan we opted to use a shallower 60% depth to make the o-ring more compliant to variations in mating flatness.
.
.
He got another pan from them and put a dab of grey RTV at the uneven deck part and the thing was spot on after that.
He aslo bought the Ground Zero straight runner LIM for the FD.. that thing was friggin BITCHIN... You didn't need a dyno to tell that it friggin worked.. as soon as he put it on.. the wideband told us that we were getting mucho more airflow and the BUTT dyno sucked up the friggin passenger seat!!!!!!!!! Wich he would have taken it back to the Dyno before he scared himself silly with the boost numbers he was runnin and went v-8.
Your not thinkin about makin one of those for an FC are ya?????
12-02-05, 05:08 PM
#31
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Alright Im sorry. I didn't mean to offend you guys. I'm sure it will work well as a oil pan. I admit that I would charge the same amount. I just get wound up sometimes cuz my degree is all about finding the best and cheapest way to make parts. Please dont call me a complete idiot though. It was a college class followed by atleast 200 hours of hands on casting work of a very difficult part to cast.
But to the pineapple guys, why dont you know how much oil it can hold?
Lastly I dont think it should be a water jet part. I guess laser is a good method if you dont plan on making many.
Alright I'm done. I need to start saving up for other car parts. Anyone want to prioritize a high cap oil pan in the car build up?
But to the pineapple guys, why dont you know how much oil it can hold?
Lastly I dont think it should be a water jet part. I guess laser is a good method if you dont plan on making many.
Alright I'm done. I need to start saving up for other car parts. Anyone want to prioritize a high cap oil pan in the car build up?
Last edited by tonybcrazy; 12-02-05 at 05:22 PM.
12-02-05, 05:11 PM
#32
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
Your not thinkin about makin one of those for an FC are ya?????
Let just see how these pans do before we even think about it, okay?BTW, my CNC laser cutting guy called this morning and said "Uh, we have a problem. You better come down here." Talk about a sinking feeling! I envisioned some pretty nasty problems on the drive over. Turned out one of the fastener slots was about 20-thou offset to one side...5 minute fix. Everything else was perfect! Better than expected. Absolutely stunning, actually. Can't wait to get the run on Monday. You will not believe the quality of the fine cuts. Even he was suprised. In fact, he asked if he could farm out some design work to me.
--
Blake
12-03-05, 03:20 AM
#33
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Doubt I'll be buying one anytime soon with how much the rebuild has come to, but if I ever damage my stock pan i'll be going for one of these for a replacement! thanks for taking the time to get another great product out on the meager fc market!
12-03-05, 03:47 AM
#34
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looks like a great product, i'll be buying one, maybe not in time for the GB, but fairly soon nonetheless
forgive me if this is a stupid question, is the windage tray the same thing as would be the Racing Beat oil pan baffle plate??
forgive me if this is a stupid question, is the windage tray the same thing as would be the Racing Beat oil pan baffle plate??
Last edited by Agent_D; 12-03-05 at 03:49 AM.
12-03-05, 04:01 AM
#35
sorry for complaining about some graphics in an area that isn't exposed to maybe cut down on machining time and maybe some cost...
the problem with the o-ring is as stated, where the irons and rotor housings/front cover mate there is a gap, hardly noticable but well enough to leak oil fairly well especially since there is, i count 10, gaps on the bottom of the engine. silicone would still have to be used to compensate for those gaps but it is not a huge issue, we have to do it with all steel and even aluminum oil pans in the industry for as long as i can remember in even stock applications. i would advise people to still use silicone on top of the o-ring to prevent oil leakage issues, this is just a friendly suggestion and to possibly prevent you some headaches and annoyed customers.
the problem with the o-ring is as stated, where the irons and rotor housings/front cover mate there is a gap, hardly noticable but well enough to leak oil fairly well especially since there is, i count 10, gaps on the bottom of the engine. silicone would still have to be used to compensate for those gaps but it is not a huge issue, we have to do it with all steel and even aluminum oil pans in the industry for as long as i can remember in even stock applications. i would advise people to still use silicone on top of the o-ring to prevent oil leakage issues, this is just a friendly suggestion and to possibly prevent you some headaches and annoyed customers.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-03-05 at 04:04 AM.
12-03-05, 06:57 AM
#36
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I take it the stock dipstick would still provide accurate readings?
Do you have any pictures of the baffling, I sometimes get momentary oil starvation on extended corners at the track.
Do you have any pictures of the baffling, I sometimes get momentary oil starvation on extended corners at the track.
12-03-05, 09:54 AM
#37
Opinions are like........
He said the depth was the same. Stock dipstick should be fine.
Any oil starvation is bad.
At the track, overfill your oil or use an oil accumulator, until you can buy the new pan yourself. I'm also assuming since you're at the track you already have a baffle to prevent starvation caused by aeration.
Looking at the stock pan picture, you can see how "squaring off" the pan will give oil capacity increase with needed to go to a deeper pan.
Its good that you won't need to worry about a longer oil pump pickup, or the oil dipstick(assumption).
Stock pan picture:
http://www.mazdatrix.com/pictures/b-engprt/2calpan.JPG
Any oil starvation is bad.
At the track, overfill your oil or use an oil accumulator, until you can buy the new pan yourself. I'm also assuming since you're at the track you already have a baffle to prevent starvation caused by aeration.
Looking at the stock pan picture, you can see how "squaring off" the pan will give oil capacity increase with needed to go to a deeper pan.
Its good that you won't need to worry about a longer oil pump pickup, or the oil dipstick(assumption).
Stock pan picture:
http://www.mazdatrix.com/pictures/b-engprt/2calpan.JPG
12-03-05, 10:03 AM
#38
Engine, Not Motor
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Very nice! Are there any plans to offer one with an integrated turbo oil drain bung? I've already baffled, added the bung and modified my steel pan and I'd be all over yours if it had the bung (pain in the butt for me to weld aluminium).
12-03-05, 02:50 PM
#39
Aaron, you could tap into the front cover below the mop as a return line.
I did this to vent the other side of the engine to eliminate oil being pushed into the oil catch can.
Maybe the n/a front covers are to different?
Still not as easy as having one integrated into the oil pan in the first place though. However, I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of having one in the oil pan in to begin with. I think under left hand turns that oil would fill the return line inhibiting the abilty of the return line to properly drain and casuing the turbo to smoke as a result.
Post #210 and on...
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...&page=14&pp=15
I did this to vent the other side of the engine to eliminate oil being pushed into the oil catch can.
Maybe the n/a front covers are to different?
Still not as easy as having one integrated into the oil pan in the first place though. However, I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of having one in the oil pan in to begin with. I think under left hand turns that oil would fill the return line inhibiting the abilty of the return line to properly drain and casuing the turbo to smoke as a result.
Post #210 and on...
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...&page=14&pp=15
12-03-05, 03:08 PM
#40
i wouldn't have the turbo drain that low either, the oil needs to have a "waterfall" effect to drain efficiently and being in the pan is not efficient and can cause turbo oil seal issues(better yet, probably will). the n/a cover is just not drilled for the oil drain but it is a good location for it, turbo fron't covers are not all that hard to find either.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-03-05 at 03:12 PM.
12-03-05, 03:45 PM
#41
Wow, that looks fantastic.
I just blew my t2's motor two days agao and I have to save up for a jspec to get my daily driver back on the road.
But damn do I want one. I'll try to find the money in my budget to buy one. I was just looking at RB's baffle plate but this is better in every way and looks worth the money.
Pity that I won't be able to buy it during the GB
And I would love to see a LIM like you guys have for the FD. Can't guarantee that I'll buy one like I say I will the oilpan but it would be great.
Still plenty of people running high HP numbers on 13BT's. Don't underestimate us!
-Ben Martin
I just blew my t2's motor two days agao and I have to save up for a jspec to get my daily driver back on the road.
But damn do I want one. I'll try to find the money in my budget to buy one. I was just looking at RB's baffle plate but this is better in every way and looks worth the money.
Pity that I won't be able to buy it during the GB
And I would love to see a LIM like you guys have for the FD. Can't guarantee that I'll buy one like I say I will the oilpan but it would be great.
Still plenty of people running high HP numbers on 13BT's. Don't underestimate us!
-Ben Martin
12-04-05, 02:52 AM
#42
Originally Posted by tonybcrazy
Alright Im sorry. I didn't mean to offend you guys. I'm sure it will work well as a oil pan. I admit that I would charge the same amount. I just get wound up sometimes cuz my degree is all about finding the best and cheapest way to make parts. Please dont call me a complete idiot though. It was a college class followed by atleast 200 hours of hands on casting work of a very difficult part to cast.
But to the pineapple guys, why dont you know how much oil it can hold?
Lastly I dont think it should be a water jet part. I guess laser is a good method if you dont plan on making many.
Alright I'm done. I need to start saving up for other car parts. Anyone want to prioritize a high cap oil pan in the car build up?
But to the pineapple guys, why dont you know how much oil it can hold?
Lastly I dont think it should be a water jet part. I guess laser is a good method if you dont plan on making many.
Alright I'm done. I need to start saving up for other car parts. Anyone want to prioritize a high cap oil pan in the car build up?
and don't feel bad about it, an Al oil pan is way down on my list at the point when i have too much money and nothing else important to spend it on. i'm not bitching btw, just stating my feelings and wondering why people go goo goo over anything new.
though i do appreciate that they put the effort into making something new for our cars i feel it could be better spent making intake runners or something equivalent. i would much rather spend $300 on airflow than a slightly better sumped oil pan, nothing wrong with the stock pan with a windage tray and the appropriate oil level and i have a hard time telling people to crawl on the ground to see something under my car that has little purpose, you won't ever see me do it as it sounds demeaning.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-04-05 at 03:08 AM.
12-07-05, 03:11 PM
#43
UPDATE:
The windage trays were a couple days late from the vendor, but they did turn out great:
Notice how the windage tray is recessed into the pan, so there is no problem with layering gaskets to sandwich it between the pan and the engine. The large o-ring is shown but the small one for the engine mount is not in the picture. Also, the windage tray in the photo does not yet have the vertical baffles installed...that's something we are working on fitting today. The pans themselves won't be back from the machinist until Friday, unfortunately (God forbid a vendor would ever make a deadline...that would be too convenient! ).
Also, here are a couple shots of the pan on an engine:
Still no word from Ryan regarding permission to run the GB.
The windage trays were a couple days late from the vendor, but they did turn out great:
Notice how the windage tray is recessed into the pan, so there is no problem with layering gaskets to sandwich it between the pan and the engine. The large o-ring is shown but the small one for the engine mount is not in the picture. Also, the windage tray in the photo does not yet have the vertical baffles installed...that's something we are working on fitting today. The pans themselves won't be back from the machinist until Friday, unfortunately (God forbid a vendor would ever make a deadline...that would be too convenient!
).Also, here are a couple shots of the pan on an engine:
Still no word from Ryan regarding permission to run the GB.
12-07-05, 03:43 PM
#45
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Wow, that's beautiful, how long will the GB be going on?
- Edit, when can we buy these? Hopefully I'll have enough money saved up for it soon enough...
- Tech
- Edit, when can we buy these? Hopefully I'll have enough money saved up for it soon enough...
- Tech
Last edited by Tech_Greek; 12-07-05 at 03:47 PM.
12-07-05, 03:56 PM
#47
Damn that's sexy!
I'm greatful for you guys hanign on and still trying to produce products for our cars.
I myself will not be buying one just because of no need but if I had to rebuild a motor and had extra $$ I'd get that. I'm all for anything which can ditch the stock leaking gasket.
BTW is there an )-ting or something for the motor mount which is near the center of the pan? I didn't see one in the pics above.
I'm greatful for you guys hanign on and still trying to produce products for our cars.
I myself will not be buying one just because of no need but if I had to rebuild a motor and had extra $$ I'd get that. I'm all for anything which can ditch the stock leaking gasket.
BTW is there an )-ting or something for the motor mount which is near the center of the pan? I didn't see one in the pics above.
12-07-05, 03:59 PM
#48
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Its good to know some vendors still put Rand D into the FC. I personally think its a really good product and the price is awesome ( looking at the other options you get less and paymore ) .
I finished istalling new motor, so wont get around for another one for a while.
Congrats in a great Product !
I finished istalling new motor, so wont get around for another one for a while.
Congrats in a great Product !
12-07-05, 05:54 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Digi7ech
BTW is there an )-ting or something for the motor mount which is near the center of the pan? I didn't see one in the pics above.
--
Blake
12-07-05, 07:33 PM
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I was curious about the windage tray. What do they do in a rotary since theres no crank anywhere close to the oil?
Also what the deal with the heat treat of the aluminum? Like is it heat treated?
Also what the deal with the heat treat of the aluminum? Like is it heat treated?