dr0x

Has anyone tried using a setup like this on a rx7? A friend and I got talking about people using a setup like this on FI vehicles to drop intake temps and curve detonation. Seems pretty practical with our cars since they are so sensitive to detonation... I want your thoughts on the matter.

Tec

Water injection is to much BS, It's pretty much a pain in the *** like useing N20 or Co2 to cool you intercooler, Once the bottle is out, it's out!

Getting rid of the top mount is one of the best things you can do, heat soak is a bitch! And the rotary is not the coolest running motor. If you have a FMIC, or a Air to water your going to get the coolest charge posible with no hassle.

dr0x

Ive seen proof of it dropping intake charges around 50F. Thats not bad bs for me.

RICE RACING

tec, properly set up WI is not BS.

It is easy, cheap, and simply achieves "good" results that you cannot get via any other method. I understand your concern about running out and reliability but again this depends on the system and how it is set up, when done properly it is no different to having another fuel tank, consumtion roughly requires the WI tank to be filled at the same time you fill the fuel tank, obviously depending on the size of tank you run and the way you drive.

If you want it is easy to fit a level warning to the WI tank to tell you to fill it easily enough.

I have been using WI for over 4 years now and I like it allot, the benifits are well documented so I wont repeat them here sufice to say that if you implement a system like this pick a good one either from a big name supplier or one from another source that is proven to work & is reliable .............. there are thermodynamic benifits that simply cannot be ignored.

Wankel7

Uh, yeah water injection is bs. So are missinformational posts.

Water injection should be a great addition. Search for a company called Aquamist. They make kits. Pricey. But they are well known for the kits.

Hell, the WI has been around since WWII for the airplane engines.

If you had a front mount and WI you would be set.

James

bingoboy

does someone have a writeup somewhere on water injection? i'm not very familiar with the concept.

dr0x

I was just going to make my own with a 60psi pump. Total was like 120$? Im not sure what you consider expensive.... *shrug* I just wanted to post this to see if anyone has done it and encountered any wierd problems. But I guess its all good

Tec

Tec

Sorry you did not like my opinion!

There are better ways to spend money! I would run my car on methonal before i used Water injection.

dr0x

I wasnt really looking for "well its a waste of money imo" because its not expensive at all. its barely over 100$ CDN for me to setup. I was more looking for the cons of using it. There isnt any mods that will let you run 2-3psi more boost and drop intake temps 50F that costs as little as this. A FMIC is a great investment HOWEVER I dont have 1000$+ to buy one.

RICE RACING

for those of us who cannot use methanol either becuase of circumstances or rule regulations, WI will give significant gains.

it's a little hard using methanol when your car will not pass scruitenering, though if you are allowed then methanol is a good solution for sure, it is jsut a "tad" more expensive than water from the tap !

that is why many different people love water injection, many aviation application only bend with methanol to stop the water from freezing at altitude, nothing cools better than water, for many people it is just hard to get their head around pumping water into the engine and not expect to loose heaps of power.

try telling that to a tractor puller who runs 150psi+ boost and injects up to 3 gallons of water per minute into his engine

Tec

$1000 bucks is a hefty penny to drop on parts for anyone! You should try the water injection, for less that $100 buck if it works like ****, mist yourself at the track next summer.

RICE RACING

The ONLY con is you need a good quality atomizing nozzle if you use a low pressure (boost pressure) system, i.e: inject in front of the turbo.

I use this method to great effect, Aquamist also recomend this point of injection for racing vehicles in their own literature when you buy their system.

Either way this is the only problem, you can make it all yourself, if you need help tuning it & seting up the flow rate for your aplication send me a PM.

The other thing is that for any high HP application you will need a stronger ignition, preferably CDI to fire the mixture, & thats it ......... you will love the system, almost as much as your engine will

RICE RACING

History is a good thing and more people should pay more attention to it.

In 1983 & 1984 Ferrari and Renault (later on) were untouchable running Avgas and water injection, they were only surpased in the last four rounds by BMW when they used rocket fuel.

Before then if you used normal fuel or AVGAS the facts are that you were no where unless you used WI to gain an advantage.

For those of us who use normal fuels or regulated fuel supplies tehn WI will give you a pproven edge over the competition, not only that but it will improve reliabilty of your engine, proven facts since 1930.

Anyone who arges against it flies in the face of history by arguably the smartest minds in the automotive and aviation fields on the planet, but hey what would I know ?

Tec

I'd still use propane before water

Some of use have deeper pockets

Tractor pull?? Nascar?? what the hell are thows?

Do the WRC guy's or f1 teams even give a ****? No they have money for engineering! not taking the sister out on dates.

RICE RACING

Well you could not get a deeper pocket than F1, and they used WI untill they developed "rocket fuel"

WRC teams use WI now.

I am not rich but I spend allot in my car, Tilton, Autronic, HKS, all top shelf parts and I use WI.

Facts are it works and as I said if you want to get around fuel limitations and be totaly legal at all racing events and on the road you cannot beat WI. These are facts mate, but hey you can do what you like, I for one would never use propane as WI works for me and it costs NOTHING to run, you cannot beat that

Tec

I'm glad you like water injection so much, to me it seems like every one down there loves it? It's not a common thing here in the states.

For me since my TII is not my daily driver, I don't have a problem spending the money on N20 and 110 octain VP fuel for my car. Water injection is not going to out perform N20 at the track or on the street.

Switch to methonal, You could loss N20 and your I\C all together! But you don't sound as crazy as me anyway.

dr0x

Water injection shouldnt even be compared to n2o. Its still a good bang for the buck. Unfortunately, I do have to drive my tii daily, plus its getting a brand new motor in it. Im really not looking to spray on it. 94 octane is expensive enough with out having to use 110 octane race fuel

N2o is cheap hp for the price, but definately not something I am looking for.

Evil Aviator

I think that you don't quite understand the issue. Water injection kicks in every time the engine is under high load. N2O only kicks in when you want the extra boost.

For example, I bet that you are running a rich mixture on that 110 octane, right? That's because you must in order to keep the engine from detonating under load when your N2O isn't being used. By adding water injection, you could tune to the correct best-power AFR, which will gain about 8-15% bhp over your current setup before adding the N2O.

Also, another advantage of water injection is that it will work on an NA engine, while an intercooler will not.

Water injection is less common on US sports cars because of better production standards for fuel when compared to other countries. However, water injection has been used successfully for decades in the US aviation industry.

Tec

I Understand the Issue, read my first post! I'm just saying that "I don't think WI is worth the hassel" If your running your Rx7 on the street, I could see how water injection could help drop intake air temps under boost or a high load (WOT).

Every one that i know that runs N20 uses a micro switch, that is activated buy the trottle linkage at WOT, so why say "N20 only kicks in when you want an extra boost" That sounded like a Acura sales man in west palm talked to last year about a GSR VTEC.

I run 110 VP because i'm the only guy here pushing the stock turbo to it's limits trying to make 300 RWHP without nitrous. I can't tell you what my A\f is because my local dyno A\F gauge is broken! But keeping the EGT's under 950 deg c in the DP @ .8 bar

RICE RACING

Tec, it's not that popular down here at all on rotaries from what I know.

I use it and I recomend it as I have used it on my own vehicle and others with sucess, I do not think it is a matter of one person being "crazier" than another, like I said a true daily driver that can go into ANY racing event without fear of breaking ANY rules is an advantage in my book, making things simple where possible is an advantage, not needing to worry when you go on a trip whether the gas station you pull up at has propane/methanol/alcohol/octane boost or some other rare or obscure chemicals is an advantage in my book.

I mean you can go and use nitro methane if you like, Is it a true street car, NO. Same goes for alternative fuels ... I mean realy how much simpler can you get than easily available pump gas and water ? These are what real cars are about ........ i know I stuffed around with blending methanol into water and running straight methanol for enrichment and it is expensive, messy, not available everywhere you go and it does not cool as well as water if you are using small amounts of it to make it economical, if you use higher ratios of methanol it can work well, but then you get back to cost and availability.

Like I said for "real" street cars water is realy atractive solution to many problems put forward by high pressure turbo charging on fuels that are available in common service stations, it will turn your car froma pain in the *** to something that you can just jump into drive anywhere and never have to wory about carrying along your own supply of gas/nos/alcohol etc to get the extra performance you need.

And for the racer, who is limited by rules to use "specification XXXX" fuel WI is a good way around this rule as water cannot be proved to be a power adder, but it sure as hell is ! That is why Ferrari Pioneered it's use in F1 from the aviation field and others simply had to either follow or watch them drive of into the distance as they did untill BMW in conjustion with a chemical manufacturer developed "turbo rocket fuel"

Moral of the story, you want to push the boundries or have a more reliable less stressed engine, you use water injection in has been proven for almost 80 years. however if you have access to better chemistry fuel or "other" chemicals that will do similar cooling jobs with out breaking rules or turning you into slave for your daily driver having to continually shell out for expensive not easily available products then do which ever you like, I know the path I choose to take.

Tec

Your passion for water injection is so strong, I'm going to buy a kit this week to try it out on the dyno to see the real gains. Who knows? it may end up on my DSM drag car next year.

Wankel7

This is one good tread about WI. Sweet Sorry I mistook your view Tec.

James

RICE RACING

It has served me well, the first time I used it I thought it was **** because I realy did not have a good understanding of it's requirements.

You need a strong ignition system.

A then you will realy need to map the system just as you do with any other fuel mod you do. I have found a flow rate of 10 to %15 percent works well and does the job ....... some guys use a flow rate of %20 of their fuel flow.

Once you get this sorted then it is a breeze, just make sure if you get a kit that it atomises the water well, that is the key. You could let the impellor atomise the water but in the long run it wears the compressor leading edges.

The ignition is important I recommend when you are up in the higher power ranges combined with water you realy need CDI. I actually disconected my WI before my CDI upgrade because in some (not all) situations my ignition system could not handle the rigours of firing 500bhp worth of highly compressed air and fuel let alone water added in on top of that, as you know it tends to be reative to the power you are making, but yeah at least if you have the upgraded ignition and right flow rate you will love the WI for sure

One of my customers went down the same path I put the WI on but untill he went CDI (MSD 6a "leadings") It was touch and go at his elevated power level to get it to run with no misfire.

I think this is the BIG reason why people stear away from WI as apposed to Methanol enrichment, I know that is the reason why I was blending %50 water with methanol before because it was easier to fire, though not as kind on the engine wear side or in chamber cooling, or peak MEP reduction, the water does change the energy heat release rate in the expanding part of the cycle reducing peak stress in the engine (this is the main reason why I like it so much) also it stop leading edge chamfering of apex seals due to lower rotor housing surface temperature (localized temp, not temp you see on the gauge), aquamist go into realy good detail on the positive sides, though I think they do tend to not shed enough light onto how much extra spark you need especially when you are pumping out the power that some of us are running at.

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

HEy guys. It's funny that this came up cause I just installed an Aquamist 1S system on my supercharged miata.

See i have a header back exhaust with a 6 pound pulley. IT was getting a shitload of pinging when I took it to the dyno for the first time.

We put the kit on, dialed it in after a few windy drives on the freeway to test for pinging. After about three trials we decided on an injector size and at what boost pressure to have it engage.

I will be dynoing it again this week and I'm sure there will be dramatic gains. **** I don't know if I'll even need an aftercooler now. I'm so psyched.

We were approached by their US reps to offer this product to the Mazda FI crowd. I will be receiving the top of the line kit in a month and after I finish with my motors, will install it on each of our FC's for Roadrace and Drag. That model can be mapped into your standalone if you have one as well as the ability to control two additional injectors.

I feel it's a necessity. Better safe than sorry and once dialed in can be a valuable asset. BTW, it doesn't consume as much water as you might assume. It's a fine mist and will not be on all the time.

Thanks for the heads up on the ignition system. I planned on doing that anyways but it's nice not to blindly run into the problem.