3 Rotor TT in a 2nd Gen!!!
12-10-01, 04:21 PM
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3 Rotor TT in a 2nd Gen!!!
Ok -- I have a question, I would prefer to get SERIOUS responses please...
I have recently come across a 3rotor motor, transmission, and ECU...for sale -- I want to buy it and put it in my 2nd gen RX-7...
My Question --
What else do i need to consider when doing the engine swap...
Will the Motor Fit? It does have 2 turbos...what motor mounts? and what else do i need to know?
Anyone with tech info will be extremely helpful -- I plan on doing the swap myself (if I can)... But I might consider taking it somewhere... Any USEFUL information is greatly appreciated... Thank you
I have recently come across a 3rotor motor, transmission, and ECU...for sale -- I want to buy it and put it in my 2nd gen RX-7...
My Question --
What else do i need to consider when doing the engine swap...
Will the Motor Fit? It does have 2 turbos...what motor mounts? and what else do i need to know?
Anyone with tech info will be extremely helpful -- I plan on doing the swap myself (if I can)... But I might consider taking it somewhere... Any USEFUL information is greatly appreciated... Thank you
12-10-01, 04:34 PM
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Theres this little button on the top right of every page on this forum called search. Its blue and very helpful...
Any ways heres the finner points....
www.k2rd.com sells motor mounts. They are a deal at $450.
Your cooling system will need upgrades, you'll need a custom ic and pipes. custom exhuast.
If you want to use the auto tranny it might work, but your going to have to figure out how to wire in the coils. You'll also need a TII hood to clear the upper intake
Theres so much to this swap (finner points) that you need to decided before you start anything.
BTW, its called a 20b. Comes from the Japan Spec luxury sedan called the Cosmo. Search for 20b and Evil Aviator. Also RETed had some good posts with alot more info.
FYI, most people ditch the TT's for a big single, goto a standalone EFI computer (Haltech, Motec, Wolf3D), and use a manual tranny.
Look to spend $10k easy for the basic install, and more like $20k to do it right (i.e. making it worth the trouble and extra cost over just building up a 13bt)
Any ways heres the finner points....
www.k2rd.com sells motor mounts. They are a deal at $450.
Your cooling system will need upgrades, you'll need a custom ic and pipes. custom exhuast.
If you want to use the auto tranny it might work, but your going to have to figure out how to wire in the coils. You'll also need a TII hood to clear the upper intake
Theres so much to this swap (finner points) that you need to decided before you start anything.
BTW, its called a 20b. Comes from the Japan Spec luxury sedan called the Cosmo. Search for 20b and Evil Aviator. Also RETed had some good posts with alot more info.
FYI, most people ditch the TT's for a big single, goto a standalone EFI computer (Haltech, Motec, Wolf3D), and use a manual tranny.
Look to spend $10k easy for the basic install, and more like $20k to do it right (i.e. making it worth the trouble and extra cost over just building up a 13bt)
12-10-01, 04:34 PM
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I beleive these guys have motor mounts:
www.k2rd.com
www.k2rd.com
12-10-01, 08:08 PM
#6
V8 swap
Now I love the 2nd gen RX-7 but you are agreeing with me that it is underpowered hence your 20B quest. I am not a purist but love the 2nd gen RX-7 for its light weight/good looks/aerodynamics/factory IRS/ and stout diff and nice MacPherson front suspension with aluminum A-arms. I did a turbo 6 conversion and have no regrets.
Aside from the finished 20B conversion costing $10K+ and the fact that the 20B weighs much more than a 13B (handling affected), and many custom one off parts will need to be fabricated, and the fact that there are only a handful of tuners who have worked on 20B's.... and I'm sure that your budget isn't skies the limit.... ever thought about parts availability?
.......consider either an LT1/T56 or LS1 (all aluminum)/T56 conversion.
LT1 (cast iron block/alum heads/intake) and T-56 6speed go for about $3K in running condition with under 60K miles including wiring harness. They can make 330rwhp with minor bolts ons and stock heads/cam and only intake/exhaust mods. That will put a 2nd gen into the 12's with traction.
LS1 is an aluminum block/heads/composite intake and with intake exhaust mods will make 400hp+ and is 70lbs lighter than the LT1. It is probably even lighter than a 13B and much lighter than a 20B. With heads/cam the engine will put out nearly 500hp flywheel rated. An all bore based 382ci LS1 with good heads and cam will put out 440rwhp and over 425rwtq all day long in naturally aspirated form on 92 octane pump gas. Any GM service center could service this bad boy.
If this perks your interest check out http://www.v8rx7.com and check out the messageboards. Other choices: Ford 5.0, LT1/LS1/L98, Buick GN 3.8 turbo, Supra TT driveline!!!
Set a $2-4K to be safe as these hidden costs pop up.
Later,
GNX7
Aside from the finished 20B conversion costing $10K+ and the fact that the 20B weighs much more than a 13B (handling affected), and many custom one off parts will need to be fabricated, and the fact that there are only a handful of tuners who have worked on 20B's.... and I'm sure that your budget isn't skies the limit.... ever thought about parts availability?
.......consider either an LT1/T56 or LS1 (all aluminum)/T56 conversion.
LT1 (cast iron block/alum heads/intake) and T-56 6speed go for about $3K in running condition with under 60K miles including wiring harness. They can make 330rwhp with minor bolts ons and stock heads/cam and only intake/exhaust mods. That will put a 2nd gen into the 12's with traction.
LS1 is an aluminum block/heads/composite intake and with intake exhaust mods will make 400hp+ and is 70lbs lighter than the LT1. It is probably even lighter than a 13B and much lighter than a 20B. With heads/cam the engine will put out nearly 500hp flywheel rated. An all bore based 382ci LS1 with good heads and cam will put out 440rwhp and over 425rwtq all day long in naturally aspirated form on 92 octane pump gas. Any GM service center could service this bad boy.
If this perks your interest check out http://www.v8rx7.com and check out the messageboards. Other choices: Ford 5.0, LT1/LS1/L98, Buick GN 3.8 turbo, Supra TT driveline!!!
Set a $2-4K to be safe as these hidden costs pop up.
Later,
GNX7
12-10-01, 09:15 PM
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Ok -- I know it is called a 20b... and I know it comes out of the Cosmo -- thanks anyway...
As for the V8 guy -- I am getting the motor + tranny + ECU for <$2k with under 50k on the engine, tranny....
Thanks for the site for the motor mounts... I think im going to have a local Mazda Shop (MazCare) put the motor in...
As for the V8 guy -- I am getting the motor + tranny + ECU for <$2k with under 50k on the engine, tranny....
Thanks for the site for the motor mounts... I think im going to have a local Mazda Shop (MazCare) put the motor in...
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12-10-01, 09:33 PM
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I have heard some scary 20b conversion stories, such as extremly high "pricy" tag to have the installation done...
This is going to **** you guys off royaly, but i rather do a v8 swap like GNX said... Its more efficient, cheaper, and WAY easier to install (A half *** mechanic/fanboy can get it done)
I did test drive a v8 rx7 a while ago that was for sale in toronto here are my feelings towards the car...
1.... EXTREMLY FAST, i mean this thing goes fast! (old engine out of a mustang)
2.... If you hear how these things sounds it frightens you (its very very easy to tell you DONT have an rotary engine under the hood)
3.... HANDLING is effected BADLY!!!!! Very badly ... HOWEVER there is a solution my good men! Have the car weighed (you can do this easily at even a local "garbage pickup center" see the differences between the front end and rear end.. SOlution! A nice audio system! (subs indeed)
The thing was bad *** thats all I can say
This is going to **** you guys off royaly, but i rather do a v8 swap like GNX said... Its more efficient, cheaper, and WAY easier to install (A half *** mechanic/fanboy can get it done)
I did test drive a v8 rx7 a while ago that was for sale in toronto here are my feelings towards the car...
1.... EXTREMLY FAST, i mean this thing goes fast! (old engine out of a mustang)
2.... If you hear how these things sounds it frightens you (its very very easy to tell you DONT have an rotary engine under the hood)
3.... HANDLING is effected BADLY!!!!! Very badly ... HOWEVER there is a solution my good men! Have the car weighed (you can do this easily at even a local "garbage pickup center" see the differences between the front end and rear end.. SOlution! A nice audio system! (subs indeed)
The thing was bad *** thats all I can say
12-10-01, 10:18 PM
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I'm finishing up my 20B FC project right now. You can send me PM on anything that you want to discuss. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I can tell you some things to watch out for, and some options for fixing them. I would also like to see what kind of ideas you have.
The two things that I should have done differently on my car:
1) Start with a TII. I'm telling you, sell your NA and get a TII. It's cheaper and easier that way. Heck, you could probably even just keep your NA, and buy a TII with blown engine/turbo and good drivetrain for about $500-800.
2) Install the engine with the stock turbos, and then worry about the single turbo conversion later on after all the bugs are worked out and the bank account has recovered. A quality single turbo adds about $10,000 to the price of the project, not to mention the drivetrain upgrades that are usually required for the increased power.
I do have some responses to some of your replies on this thread:
Yes, it will normally cost you about $10,000 - $20,000 for a DIY conversion, while pro shops charge around $40,000. I'm not sure what kind of EMS you have, but if it will actually run the engine, then you can probably do a really basic DIY conversion for about $4,000 plus the components that you mentioned, but a shop will probably charge you at least twice that. Be advised that most shops charge about $60-70/hr for labor, and up to $3,000 for tuning, so you may want to get an estimate before you buy the engine.
No, your weight distribution and handling will not be greatly affected by the 20B.
My racing partner just inherited a Ford 302 1Gen project car. I think that V-8 conversions are just fine, but it's just not the same as having a turbocharged 3-rotor.
The two things that I should have done differently on my car:
1) Start with a TII. I'm telling you, sell your NA and get a TII. It's cheaper and easier that way. Heck, you could probably even just keep your NA, and buy a TII with blown engine/turbo and good drivetrain for about $500-800.
2) Install the engine with the stock turbos, and then worry about the single turbo conversion later on after all the bugs are worked out and the bank account has recovered. A quality single turbo adds about $10,000 to the price of the project, not to mention the drivetrain upgrades that are usually required for the increased power.
I do have some responses to some of your replies on this thread:
Yes, it will normally cost you about $10,000 - $20,000 for a DIY conversion, while pro shops charge around $40,000. I'm not sure what kind of EMS you have, but if it will actually run the engine, then you can probably do a really basic DIY conversion for about $4,000 plus the components that you mentioned, but a shop will probably charge you at least twice that. Be advised that most shops charge about $60-70/hr for labor, and up to $3,000 for tuning, so you may want to get an estimate before you buy the engine.
No, your weight distribution and handling will not be greatly affected by the 20B.
My racing partner just inherited a Ford 302 1Gen project car. I think that V-8 conversions are just fine, but it's just not the same as having a turbocharged 3-rotor.
12-10-01, 10:39 PM
#12
well, I think, if you don't have the money to give all at once to have a shop convert it, and don't have the skill/knowledge/tools (or friends/aquaintances with those) don't bother.
Doesn't exactly seem like the classic weekend project, and alot of money just for DIY.
Think about the money first off, and you don't want your RX-7 sitting around for half a year w/ a half completed 20b swap.
Doesn't exactly seem like the classic weekend project, and alot of money just for DIY.
I think im going to have a local Mazda Shop (MazCare) put the motor in...
12-11-01, 06:36 AM
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Write-up
There is a mostly complete write-up on this topic at http://www.se-rx7.com/20b/
It covers the block, fuel mgmt, cooling, the clutch, the front sway bar problem, the ECU, and a host of other gotcha's. There is also a list of the pioneers: Chito Solomon, Ted K, Mark J., Scott N., and others. There is a shopping list at the end.
There are many way$ to approach the project, from super-cheapo to mega-$-machine.
Enjoy,
Steve C.
It covers the block, fuel mgmt, cooling, the clutch, the front sway bar problem, the ECU, and a host of other gotcha's. There is also a list of the pioneers: Chito Solomon, Ted K, Mark J., Scott N., and others. There is a shopping list at the end.
There are many way$ to approach the project, from super-cheapo to mega-$-machine.
Enjoy,
Steve C.
12-11-01, 08:43 AM
#15
3rotor in 2nd gen
First of all your looking at a lot of work time and money being put into the car. But when your done you will love the torque output that the three rotor puts to the ground. the difference between the two and three rotor may not seem that big but when you get it on the strip you'll notice the difference.
12-11-01, 10:17 AM
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have you heard the way a 3 rotor sounds? its amazing, it making me want to put one in my t2, except i am very tempted to put the 20b in n/a. no turbo, no intercooler its gonna be much less complex that way.
www.k2rd.com
http://images.rotarynews.com/videos/...enstock017.mpg
mike
www.k2rd.com
http://images.rotarynews.com/videos/...enstock017.mpg
mike
04-07-05, 02:02 PM
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id have the 20b rebuilt and have single apex seals installed before you install .this is a smart thing to do ahead of time.rotary aviation has great deals on parts and they have good stuff
as far as the v8 in a rx-7 i think is stupid because people are trying to compare a 5.0 or 6.0 liter motor to a 1.8 3-rotor motor the 3-rotor motor with a little work is a much better power pick i think and the cost of install is alot cheaper if you do some work yourself.
piston motors are fine and there are many fast piston motor cars i love to see.
the lemans 24hr race has lots of them everyyear that also sound great.but a v-8 in a rx-7 is just against my religion
as far as the v8 in a rx-7 i think is stupid because people are trying to compare a 5.0 or 6.0 liter motor to a 1.8 3-rotor motor the 3-rotor motor with a little work is a much better power pick i think and the cost of install is alot cheaper if you do some work yourself.
piston motors are fine and there are many fast piston motor cars i love to see.
the lemans 24hr race has lots of them everyyear that also sound great.but a v-8 in a rx-7 is just against my religion
04-07-05, 07:12 PM
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UPDATE: Mike, J9FD3S installed 20B, had haltech E11 Issues. Sold engine and harness to Reese (Nota944,20B10thAE) In car and running. 87GTR was just running off at the mouth.
I bought a 20B, realized I had more projects than time and sold it, Seller rebuilt it , realized he had more projects than time and sold it.
I bought a 20B, realized I had more projects than time and sold it, Seller rebuilt it , realized he had more projects than time and sold it.
04-07-05, 07:30 PM
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Update from me: I finally got a stable residence, and will start pouring money back into the money pit after tax season. Hopefully, my racing partner can get it running so I can drive it from Florida to St. Louis later this year when I will have some place to work on it. Fortunately, most of the really expensive and/or complicated portions of the project are finished.
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