drago86

I almost guarentee you kevin never said anything like that.

Dan H

Hmm...maybe your right. I tried to do a search. But with the Atkins seals, damage should still be minimal since the Atkins seals are softer than OEM.

"The apex seal debate is never ending. I've run the stockers, atkins and Rotary aviation in my FD. The stockers hold tons of power, but when they go...they destroy tons of stuff in their place. The atkins don't like high EGT's so they'll let go faster than the stockers...but when they go, they do minimal to NO damage to ANYTHING. I've had 2 engine's go out that had the atkins seals in them...not one single scratch when the engine blew. I currently have the rotary aviation seals in and they seem to be holding quite well. I'm trying to be the first person to blow them up...but I'm having a little bit of difficulty doing it." -jspecracer7

Wankel7

Thanks for the input man. I am not trying to say it was poor build quality...I said "I am not \mad at Aktins or looking to scare people away from them. There are just to many variables on why my engine let go. Most prob. lying in my engine bay."

I know why it let go...it was all me

I understand this is my first time and that is why I am on here asking questions with pictures. Thanks for the info on the bluing.

Two new rotor housings are already part of the plan.

What makes a rotor not reusable? I haven't found any info on here from threads. Is it basicly any gouges from a seal letting go?

Thanks for the info guys!

Wankel7

Thanks Aaron!

James

andrewb70

Perfect time to drop in an LS1 and run 11s for about 5K.

Good luck.

Andrew

ddub

5k? No, it's more like 10k when all is said and done. Besides this is not the part of the forum for v8 discussion so leave it out of here as most people in here wouldn't consider doing a v8 swap.

V8 swap = death to the rx-7

Wankel7

Not in a million years....never...never

But thanks for the good luck part

Edit - Yeah, it is an option to consider...just not my stick...

James

andrewb70

Don't be so dramatic. It's just another option to consider.

Andrew

KompressorLOgic

iTrader: (6)

20b

CyborgRyu

iTrader: (8)

what was your mph and what do you have done to the car.

Wankel7

I wish I knew...the timing equipment was focking up.

Atkins Streetported Engine
Upgraded stock turbo
TO4E-46
Ported wastegate
8° Exhaust clip
TB Mod
Apex N1 Dual
Mid Pipe
RP DP - With exhaust wrap
Walbro High Flow Fuel Pump
Water Temp, Boost, Oil Temp, Oil Pres, Air intake temp
Techedge wideband
HKS FCD
S-AFC

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

didn't read all the posts but...

the only seals that i know of that do the least amount of damage are carbon seals.

the CAS gear, there is 2 beveled edges, one small one larger, the larger bevel goes towards the engine.

the bearings look fine, nothing is missing int hat first picture.

you were pushing past the redline and admitted to having detonation at times, the engine likely let go because it wasn't feeling very good, probably not about the rebuild but about the tuning of it.

KompressorLOgic

iTrader: (6)

hey what size injectors were u running?

drago86

sorry i was a bit harsh,.. your first post just seemed like you were pointing out things you thought atkins did wrong.

It's best not to excite the noobs is all,... theyll be taking about how atkins uses blue shafts that arnt good and leaves out thrust plates for ages if you hint at it..

you could theoretically use it,.. but i wouldnt,.. unless it was just a crap-thrown together-to-make-something-that-runs motor. If you were to do this youd need to carefully measure the griooves as a seal breaking usually totaly screws their clearences up.

In general if theres any damage to the rotor at all trash it,.. the gouges can become hotspots, and while you can lessen this by fileing them as smooth a possible i still wouldnt do it. Also, you have a chunk or apex seal embeded in your rotor,.. this could dislodge at a latter date and blow the motor again,..,... i REALLY wouldnt re use it if you want a motor that does more then just run for a few thousand miles.

RETed

HOLY CRAP!
That's the worst pic I've ever seen of an apex seal "failing"!
From my limited knowledge of metallurgy, those seals are soft; no wonder they don't recommend them for high boost or high power applications...geez!


-Ted

RETed

Look in the CENTER of the CAS gear - the "chamfered" side is the one with the bevel on the inside hole.
You can't tell from that pic.


Spacer is there - you're pointing to it.

I gotta say it again - HOLY CRAP!
How much boost were you running?
Were you running a wide-band?
EGT?
How much power?


Apex seal grooves looks alright - check clearances to be sure.


Yes, they are ported.
It looks like they do not increase any overlap - i.e. earlier port opening.
I would like the closing edge to have been bevelled to save the side seals.
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TNT/JISS/jiss.html

Crap, that looks just like my porting technique...

That bluing is normal.
That is production marks from heat treating the e-shaft.


-Ted

Wankel7

I can see how I came across like that. I don't want to do that with Atkins. I was just wondering cause the front bearing/spacer arangment didnt seem to agree with the fsm.

Yeah, that one picture with the seal embeded in the rotor. I could flake it out with a finger nail. I really need to clean the carbo off to see how deep the gouges really do run. Oddly enough...there is not ONE spot on the rear rotor housing that will snag my finger nail. Seems to be a popular test here Those seals must be soft. I found little bits of seal in my exhaust manifold they were all balled up. I do not want this motor to go quick again. I know these new rotor housings are going to be expensive and I don't want to waste housings because I know they dont grow on trees.

Unfotrunally, I wont be able to work on the engine till Jan

Thanks again for your input!

vipers

iTrader: (8)

about the gouged rotor.......... wouldnt having a gouged rotor make it off balanced, and therefore unusable (or having a piece of apex seal stuck in it)??? not a statement.... just a question....

Wankel7

ReTed - Thanks for the input! Much appreciated!

I have no idea on the power however it ran a 13.72 at the track (MPH unknown) but I would guess 105 or lower based on previous runs.
Just had installed the EGT and the car had run about 30 minutes with it installed before I blew it.
Running 12 psi when it blew. Before that it was about 14 psi of boost. AFRs were no

Thanks for the info on the secondary ports to protect the side seals. I looked at your link and that makes allot of sense. Cleaning that closing part of the port seems like something I can tackle my self. I didn't even want to get near my ports because I know that is over my head

Thanks!

James

Wankel7

On my rotor I could have knocked that piece out with a finger nail..it is just stuck there so I snapped a pic

James

Wankel7

Found my AFR logging fun.

Never was correlated to RPM but it was from about 4000rpm on up to 7000ish under wideopen.

James

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

on a 12lb rotor it would take a bit more than a .01 oz bit of metal to throw it off balance.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

The timing gear on the eshaft can go either way, if you look, it is the same from either side as far as the gear goes, but the chamfer side is supposed to go toward the engine (the smoothed off edge).

You have the thrust plate, the main thick piece of metal. Against each side of the thrust plate shoudl ride a needle bearing. Against each needle bearing should ride another blank metal spacer. In the center of all this is the larger round spacer that controls endplay.

When a 2pc seal breaks along it's length, it means the rotor tip clearance could be more than what it should be. Letting the seal rock side to side, bending right where you see the break in the center. IF the rotor tip clearance is looser than it should be, it places more stress on the seal, and eventually it'll break somewhere, but they usually hold up longer than that.

Yes, if the tip clearance is okay, then it's fine. Little dents and scratches on the faces do not matter, just file or grind them down level. Be sure to get an old embedded seal pieces out though, or they could come out on their own later on at high rpms. You might be milling for 3mm though, if the tip is too open for 2mm. Not a big deal, really, it's an upgrade.

Looks like a nice streetport to me, primaries are about as large as they can reasonably be, secondaries are a bit conservative but nothing wrong with that for a street engine.

The blueing and colorchange on the eshaft is normal BESIDE the journal surfaces. This is part of the manufacturing process from what I can gather, they are all this way. You worry about the 4 journal surfaces only. They should be mirror clean and should be perfectly smooth and flat with no grooves or anything to catch a fingernail on. IF you scratch the journal surfaces and cannot catch on anything, you're good to go. Eshafts do not wear much at all without some traumatic event such as oil starvation or extreme overrevving.

Theyre a softer seal, and they're a 2pc instead of a 3pc which makes it more stable in the rotor tip, both of which mean they're going to cause LESS damage than a 3pc seal if they do break. BUt they cannot cause NO damage. How can you get chunks of 2mm wide seal floating around in an engine at several rotations per second, and the closest gap between rotor and rotorhousing being 1mm, and not expect that 2mm seal to contact something? No matter what its made out of, it WILL do damage on the way out, unless you get so lucky that a chunk of the center falls directly out the exhaust port, the odds of which are low.

The consensus is that 25-40% or less showing is reuseable, I tend to stay below 25% with mine. Rotary bearings endure very little stress, they're usually fine, even after 100k miles. They are gray in color when new, the more gray, the better. There is a seam where the bearing is pressed together, this is normal to show wear btw. Clean the bearing and rotor and check for excess play when you mate them up. You should be able to move the opposing end of the shaft about 1/32"-1/16" or so with a good bearing, much more than that and you begin to wonder about the bearing.

See, the thing about that is, they build them with oil and vaseline or whatever all over the internals. My tests show that any oil, atf, etc. in the engine artificially raises compression test numbers 20-40psi. You can take an old 85psi engine on it's last leg, inject a shitload of motor oil into the chambers, hook up a tester, and show 125psi out of it, which is spec for a new engine. But, as soon as that **** burns off when you crank it up, the compression will drop to it's true reading, much less. This is why injecting atf/oil i nto a rotary helps start it in the first place...it raises compression for cranking. So, to compression test an engine on a bench is useless IMO, unless it's been run and all the internal "stuff" has been burned clean. Then you test it and get a true reading. Also, testing a rotary cold usually yeilds 5-10psi more compression than testing it after being run. Rotaries lose compression when hot, which is part of the reason they have starting issues when hot and not cold, lower compression.

I run all my rebuilds (that I do not personally install) on a test stand and compression test them before they leave.

I would tend to agree with you there, I never did say that

Ah, ****, this guy again. Man, why wont you let it go? Do you lurk this forum for the sole purpose of waiting on "I blew my rotary" posts to try and find converts for your cause? IF you want to come here and contribute, or post debates in their proper place, then fine. But this is bullshit, and I for one am getting tired of seeing it go on.

jacobcartmill

iTrader: (6)

i <3 kevin landers

Wankel7

Man, thanks alot Kevin for the run down on ALL of my questions. That was great!

Could you expand on this one thing you said...

"When a 2pc seal breaks along it's length, it means the rotor tip clearance could be more than what it should be. Letting the seal rock side to side, bending right where you see the break in the center. IF the rotor tip clearance is looser than it should be, it places more stress on the seal, and eventually it'll break somewhere, but they usually hold up longer than that. "

When you say rotor tip clearance you mean the clearance between the rotor tip and the housing?
Or the clearnace of the apex seal inside the rotor tip?

Thanks again!

James

If I didn't have such motivation to do this rebuild myself...my rebuild would be rolling your way