Ottoman

I HAVE DISCOVERED A NEW FC!


MY CAR IS A FREAK OF NATURE!


yup that's right...

here's the story: (if u don't want the backgroun skip to the asterics)

I currently live in the middle east (i'm not an arab I only live here so spare the racism)

I'm new to the Rotary world... (about 6 months) and have a US imported 88 TII

up until recently, thinking i was the ONLY rotary on the island (never was sold here)


long story short... there was a 2nd one...

looked like a regular 91 model S5 N/A to me... interior was Great condition, but engine "didn't run"

my S4 has a great engine.. but the body is in shambles.. i bought this 2nd one for cheap... figured i'd do the swap in my garage...


*****

the car is middle east spec... (god knows how, i don't know anywhere in the gulf that sold rotaries from the agent... desert heat and doritos don't mix so great)


the CAR IS TOTALLY BEWILDERING to me..

the differences i've NOTICED so far:

rear seats (rare i know but not unseen)
clear turn signals
rest seems like ur typical S5 interior(all black) (but i'm no expert maybe there's details i missed) nice head unit with Digial EQ...
has ABS, a strange cylindrical Cruise box (my s4's is a square) , sunroof, the electronic sport suspension, central locking, power windows and all that...

brakes MAYBE the 4pots... can't really see behind the rim..

car is 5 lug, 89-90 GXL rims like this:

car is a 91 tho



but the ENGINE.. MY GOD:

it's a freak of nature...

the engine it self appears to be an S4 Engine... it has S4 flap door MAF, and metal neck for the coolant hose.. on the top of the intake manifold is written 13B injection


but rather then a CAS.. it has a DISTRIBUTOR! staring u back in the face... exactly like the FB's GSL-SE!

no pressure/map sensor (obviously cuz it's got no CAS)


the ECU is UNHEARD OF!


N368! the whole website turned up one result on this ecu # (and that led no where) the plugs are the same the S4 tho...

and i found nothing on Google...

it's all OEM, not some weird transplant/hybrid...

very very strange...


trying to get the car to run... only worked on it last night...
having a completely wack, one off engine doesn't really help... (FSM is useless)

Spark is good and strong..
fuel pump was shot.. put in my walboro unit..

now the fuel injectors don't appear to be firing :S (maybe cuz the car has been sitting since december they're jammed)


i also noticed when i had the snorkel off, the upper "pair" of butterflies are sagging open... aren't they all supposed to be closed? the appear to attach to a vaccume/pressure activated actuator on the TB... maybe the snap shut when the engine is cranking? i really dunno... the previous owner said the car had really high idle/ idle problems (when it was running) i have a feeling this might be the reason.... not all 3 butterflies are closed at idle... (not that i've gotten the car to run yet to even test my theory)



so that's the story...

i'm at work right now, I so can't post pics of the car yet...



very strange yet very interesting...



more updates to come as i "discover" new things :P

FCKing1995

iTrader: (3)

damn thats crazy

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

EUROPEAN spec FC NA's do have distributor (N322 ECU controlls only injection)

rear seats and clear turn signals standard as well

only S4 NA's to be seen in EU however

Ottoman

oh ya? how about the S5?

hows the performance of the Euro NA S4/S5 vs the US NA S4/S5?

ever heard of an N368 ECU?

RETed

Ha!
And I thought your nick meant furniture...


Gotta VIN?


I doubt this is the case...it's most likelu a Euro spec.
I don't think Mazda designed a "Middle East" spec model just for your region.



Not unheard of...


ALL S5 FC's have clear turn signal lenses.



It sounds like a 1986 Euro-spec motor.

No pressure / MAP sensor has nothing to do with a CAS.


I put money it's not.

What shape are the fuel injector plugs?
Can you see the ECU plug pins? Are they all straight in two rows?
Do the crossover plugs from the main engine harness to the dash harness match? No splicing?

If you can take pics of the electrical plugs, this will help...


-Ted

Ottoman

don't blame ya.. there's not much difference between a foot stool and an empire, easily mixed up :P

stay tuned... u'll get the VIN tonight.. when i go to garage to take pics of the "freak show" :P



I didn't believe it either... but I'll be sure to include a Pic of the Door plate all in arabic except for the huge 1991 in the middle of all the squiggles :P


that's why i said rare :P


this was the first one I saw in real life... gimme a break
I thought all US cars had to have amber turn signals by law?




could be... never seen one... when I post the pics later.. u tell me :P


i thought the MAP sensor worked with ECU/CAS to retard/advance timing?



injectors are Square if i remember correctly... same as S4 TII

the ecu has 3 "plugs" exactly like my S4 TII


everything looks pretty untouched... don't see any Jerry rigging at all...

I'll post pics of the ECU and the Foot well also...

u want a pic to see the shape of the plug? or the actual pins inside the plug?

SidewaysFC

that's why they call them euro-lights

no amber color law ...atleast that is where clear corners came from

Ottoman

why do bimmers and mercs and such STILL come with amber corners?

where as euro spec ones do not?

RETed

The VIN plates are put on afterwards, I think.
US VIN plates are unique.
Aussie VIN plates are unique.
Japan VIN plates are unique.
Does the car have the stamped VIN on the firewall?


Nope.
If so, then those nasty bug-eye'd Integras would be all illegal.
There are some other models which have non-amber turn signal lenses.
The technicality is that the blinkers have to flash amber.


Yep, but the dizzy has a built in mechnical (centrifugal) or vacuum "advance" that does this.


Okay, that makes the engine wiring harness definitely S4.

You know...after thinking about it for a little while...
That N368(?) ECU might be one of the last S4 ECU's designed and built by Mazda.
I know the "first" S5 ECU's are all at least N370 or higher.

US-spec S4 turbo ECU's are all N33x.
Euro-spec S4 turbo ECU's go at least to N340.

Yeah, if you can take a pic of the plug OR the ECU pins - the S4 ones are all straight across.
The S5 ones have the largest plug with offset pins on both ends.
This is obvious.

Now that I think about it...
There was this one S5 exterior black FC turbo in CZ that was running an S4 engine and ECU.
I didn't get around to checking the dash crossover harness, but it LOOKED stock!

hIGGI has pics of those FC 13B 6-port dizzy motors, since they have over there in CZ.

Hey hIGGI, did you get to check out that black S5 turbo with the S4 13BT???


-Ted

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

the intake manifold use butterfly valves for the 6pi system? if so then it's definetly the same as the S4 euro motor.

my understanding is that they continued to sell the non-turbo cars oversees until 92, but only in north america was there the powerplant revision with the S5.

check if you have series 5 CHASSIS features, such as one piece front suspension control arm.

it should also be noted that no 91 came with AAS in north america, so that is very interesting since you mention this 91 does.

everything more or less makes sense so far, other than that damn ECU. wierd, lol.

- Aaron

NZConvertible

What a lot of excitement about not much...

All JDM FC's have rear seats, as well as many other models around the world (i.e they're not rare even in the US).

All US S5's have clear front indicator lenses with orange bulbs. FYI, JDM S5's have clear front indicator lenses with orange filters behind them and clear bulbs.

The "strange cylindrical cruise box" is the same vacuum actuator fitted to all NA's with cruise. The square version is the electrical actuator fitted to turbos.

Markets that had less strict emissions regs (parts of Europe, the Middle East and even NZ) received the motor described, the main differences being distributor-controlled ignition (instead of ECU-controlled), a 12V AFM (instead of 5V), no MAP or O2 sensors, no AWS, a thermal reactor and heat exchanger instead of cats, ECU/solenoid-controlled butterfly valves instead of backpressure-operated rotating sleeves for the 6PI system, smaller mufflers, and some other detail stuff. It's pretty obvious that all this would also require a different ECU. I have the Mazda 1986 Service Training Manual for the NZ model.

So not really a special "freak of nature", just a bunch of stuff you didn't know...

Ottoman

yep.. its stamped on the firewall above the ABS pump... area/corner
didn't check for the one on the dashboard tho or other places...


does this mean i wont have to pull the wiring hardness from my 88 to do the swap? or the N/A and TII hardness differ alot?


interesting theory... but why would the "latest" and presumably "best" S4 ECU have such an Archane Ignition system, rather then using CAS like their US S4 counterparts?




hopefully he can Chime in with some pics for comparison purposes...


what's ur opnion on the "dizzy-ed" 6 port motors? are they at much of a disadvantage to their US versions? or does really make much of a difference?

how would u say the compare performance wise?

Ottoman

Party pooper
haha

well it looks like I know who i'll be coming to for help then :P

since most of the site is USDM.. that's mostly but i've been "exposed" to...

ur being near japan and having alot of JDM over there, u get to see the 'other side' of the coin...

learn something new everyday

shame I can't get a PDF version of the service manual...


could u explain a little more about "ECU/solenoid-controlled butterfly valves instead of backpressure-operated rotating sleeves for the 6PI system"

does this mean i'd have an easier time removing all the emissions stuff and not having to worry about losing the 6PI activation mechanism like in the USDM versions?

*edit* oh and does our "less envirnomentally friendly" designed engines compare in performance to the more "green" USDM versions?

the car has RB headers, APexi single N1, and a cone filter... i'm hoping this fella will have a little spunk to keep me entertained till I get the TII swap pulled cleaned and ready to go in to the S5...

TurboII RudeBoy

The latest or best has nothing to do with the ecu number, the s5 verts have n353 ecus and n370 is not the first s5 ecu just usdm in japan they got s5's before us circa late 87 mid 88 and those ecu's are n374.have u ever seen a n318 turbo2 ecu?i have.hope i can chime in on any other questions.

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

some pics here :

http://rx7cz.net/photos/workshop04/

more to be found in various http://rx7cz.net/photos/

RETed (never seen it or heard about it again)

NZConvertible (/me wants that manual bad, u have it scanned? or could atleast scan parts which are covering our stuff (basically whats different from US manuals) ?

Ottoman

first batch of pics:

Ottoman

second batch:

Ottoman

3rd batch

Ottoman

4th batch:

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

whoa, what the hell is up with the gauges? how come it's an S5 cluster, in a manual tranny car, but redline is 7k?

hey, is that black car an R33? sweeeet....

- Aaron

RX7Dragon

Its prolly still a 7k redline cause its hooked up to an S4 motor. And Yeah looks like a skyline sitting in the backround. Yours?

Ottoman

good point about the Tach.. I totally forgot to mention that one..


it's Midnight Purple actually...


it's an R33 VSPEC with some bolt ons... (it's actually for sale if u want it :P: )

Mr_Rx7_Au

Hijacking a little..

s5 clusters have a redline from 8-9? not 7-8? I'm looking at japan imports and they seem to only have the 7-8k redline...

Ottoman

US spec... N/A S5's have a 8k redline

Turbo models have 7k

JDM's are all Turbo, that's why it's 7k

my car is an S5 N/A so it SHOULD techincally be 8k.. but the engine is an S4 so still has the 7k redline...

on rotaries, a redline is merely a suggestion.. not a rule

Mr_Rx7_Au

Yup, confirmed my thoughts. BTW, my s3 got stolen, so I'm not a newbie.

Anyone converted the stock speedo cluster (180km/h jdm) to say a mazdaspeed one?