Slammed?
02-13-08, 03:23 PM
#52
Of course it does, but I can't really run more than that based on the rules. There are a thing called classes. I can always run short sidewall tires too if I wanted to, actually, I can't, once again, class rules.
Who said I never drove a lowered car? I sure as hell didn't.
Driven a go kart before. God I hope I never have that kind of suspension (i.e. none) on my car. But go-karts are a totally different animal.
If I had it my way, I would run 275/35/15's. Acceleration boost, low sidewall, plus lots and lots of grip. Then I run into fitment issues.
Body roll still exists, even if you can't see it. If you don't realize that, then you need to relearn your car physics. Cars can handle for very different reasons.
Feels good does not equal cornering well, relative to ideal. You're still lacking, and there are places on a track where a car tuned right can keep the throttle wide open and where the slammed car will start spinning tires. It's physics, really.
(*JOKE*)
I have never said slamming never works. Actually no, I have, and I stand by it. To me slamming means lowering the car as far as the car will go in regards to looks only.
Lowering the car, on the other hand, to finely tune center of gravity is a different story.
All joking aside, lowering a car that low is ideal in the rarest of circumstances. 1:04 could be turned into 1:03.5 easily if that car was improperly slammed.
Dude, I've seen the double adjustable coilovers, a long time ago, it was featured in a BMI awhile back. Nifty little thing. Still lowers roll center from what I see. Stroke was never really an issue if you had proper length springs anyway.
The thing is, what's working? You haven't exacly given us a baseline, and while I know what a good time around Tsukuba is generally, I still wouldn't mind seeing the difference between a slammed car and lowering to the ideal height. We're talking tenths of seconds here, so slamming could be done and an average driver wouldn't really notice it much.
Anyway, have you ever driven cars like that? What's your basis for KNOWING FOR A FACT, that slamming works more than .01% of the time? Have you ever driven around a track, have the instructor drive your slammed car around a track and see what he says? Drifting doesn't count, btw.
Now we're arguining semantics, anyway.
We both agree that:
1. In some circumstances, slamming a car is ideal, though I would call it lowering the car to it's ideal point, in this case, ideal being as low as you can.
2. Slamming is ok for average drivers. They won't really notice handling deficiencies anyway.
My point is:
1. I can usually tweak a slammed car to make it faster just by analyziing where the car's height needs to be with suspension position sensors.
2. I just want people who read this to know: 9999 TIMES OUT OF 10000, SLAMMING YOUR CAR TO THE GROUND DOES NOT LEAD TO BETTER HANDLING. Tuning must be done as a whole package to achieve proper balance.
That being said, it's obvious that there are situations where slamming won't lead to detrimental handling. But those situations are few and far in between.
Who said I never drove a lowered car? I sure as hell didn't.
Driven a go kart before. God I hope I never have that kind of suspension (i.e. none) on my car. But go-karts are a totally different animal.
If I had it my way, I would run 275/35/15's. Acceleration boost, low sidewall, plus lots and lots of grip. Then I run into fitment issues.
Body roll still exists, even if you can't see it. If you don't realize that, then you need to relearn your car physics. Cars can handle for very different reasons.
Feels good does not equal cornering well, relative to ideal. You're still lacking, and there are places on a track where a car tuned right can keep the throttle wide open and where the slammed car will start spinning tires. It's physics, really.
(*JOKE*)
I have never said slamming never works. Actually no, I have, and I stand by it. To me slamming means lowering the car as far as the car will go in regards to looks only.
Lowering the car, on the other hand, to finely tune center of gravity is a different story.
All joking aside, lowering a car that low is ideal in the rarest of circumstances. 1:04 could be turned into 1:03.5 easily if that car was improperly slammed.
Dude, I've seen the double adjustable coilovers, a long time ago, it was featured in a BMI awhile back. Nifty little thing. Still lowers roll center from what I see. Stroke was never really an issue if you had proper length springs anyway.
The thing is, what's working? You haven't exacly given us a baseline, and while I know what a good time around Tsukuba is generally, I still wouldn't mind seeing the difference between a slammed car and lowering to the ideal height. We're talking tenths of seconds here, so slamming could be done and an average driver wouldn't really notice it much.
Anyway, have you ever driven cars like that? What's your basis for KNOWING FOR A FACT, that slamming works more than .01% of the time? Have you ever driven around a track, have the instructor drive your slammed car around a track and see what he says? Drifting doesn't count, btw.
Now we're arguining semantics, anyway.
We both agree that:
1. In some circumstances, slamming a car is ideal, though I would call it lowering the car to it's ideal point, in this case, ideal being as low as you can.
2. Slamming is ok for average drivers. They won't really notice handling deficiencies anyway.
My point is:
1. I can usually tweak a slammed car to make it faster just by analyziing where the car's height needs to be with suspension position sensors.
2. I just want people who read this to know: 9999 TIMES OUT OF 10000, SLAMMING YOUR CAR TO THE GROUND DOES NOT LEAD TO BETTER HANDLING. Tuning must be done as a whole package to achieve proper balance.
That being said, it's obvious that there are situations where slamming won't lead to detrimental handling. But those situations are few and far in between.
02-13-08, 03:27 PM
#53
lol, remember both my cars are street cars. Anyone that knows what they're doing will tell you that you have to compromise when you are building a weekend auto-cross car that will be street driven.
If I had gone with the 17"+ rims on either of my cars I'd probably have a bent Aluminum rims due to the lo-pro tires. You want to build a race car that can be driven on the street with no compromise.
Please do tell me how my setups don't work. You're comparing your road/drift set up to professional race cars bro. They're not the same. you can show me all the pics you want and use them to "show" how the technology has improved but in the end you still need to tune it to find the perfect heigth, perfect camber, perfet toe, perfect caster, perfect wieght distribution, dampening, rebound, etc. etc. All these can change depending on the track and slamming a car without doing these adjustments makes no sense to me. Driving a STREET CAR with a RACE setup makes no sense to me either.
What are your settings?
BTW, weren't you defending this guy once:
If I had gone with the 17"+ rims on either of my cars I'd probably have a bent Aluminum rims due to the lo-pro tires. You want to build a race car that can be driven on the street with no compromise.
Please do tell me how my setups don't work. You're comparing your road/drift set up to professional race cars bro. They're not the same. you can show me all the pics you want and use them to "show" how the technology has improved but in the end you still need to tune it to find the perfect heigth, perfect camber, perfet toe, perfect caster, perfect wieght distribution, dampening, rebound, etc. etc. All these can change depending on the track and slamming a car without doing these adjustments makes no sense to me. Driving a STREET CAR with a RACE setup makes no sense to me either.
What are your settings?
BTW, weren't you defending this guy once:
Last edited by phoenix7; 02-13-08 at 03:35 PM.
02-13-08, 03:30 PM
#54
The track that I was driving, Lime Rock Park, is tricky to drift on. The road's highest point is in the middle, with the edges falling off. That means, in some corners, you only have half the track to work with. The other half is off camber, and will seriously slow you down. Either that or send you into the trees or the lake (water hazard) next to the track. It's dangerous, but that's what makes it fun. I almost killed myself around there the first time around. There's also one turn that has a huge elevation change uphill, with a sharp crest. I drifted that one, but I had to unwind before I crested, otherwise, I would've been in a wall. That was definitely scary.
Cones are fun, but the real fun is staring serious injury down and laughing at it. That's the price you pay to go fast on tracks without many safety areas.
I'm all for fun, but winning means more to me.
02-13-08, 03:33 PM
#55
Registered User
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Custom valved shocks that match the spring rates will always be superior to this until you get into the upper levels of Tracking/racing. It will have smoother rebound and compression, while perfectly matching the rate/weight the car is exerting. This is ideal because the spring matches the shock, and shock matches the spring. Coilover don't always have this balance.
Don't knock 16s, they have a purpose. Roen rolls 16s and I don't think I would go any higher if I had an N/A. And tires are all subjective, you can get Falkens with a side wall stiffer than a 16 year old at a strip club. Wall wrinkle doesn't mean bad handling.
02-13-08, 04:43 PM
#59
17x9 FTW but lo-pro tires will own you in the Bay man.
I have 13lbs. aluminum rims that I don't want to see bent so a taller tire gives me that added safety.
Do you have an extra set of rims for you DD needs? or will your car be track-only?
I'm still waiting for hypertek to tell how my setup is flawed and what's wrong with 16's and to finally get a list of his setup.
I hope we have a track day closer to SoCal. I'd be down to drive to SoCal and race around the track.
Last edited by phoenix7; 02-13-08 at 05:07 PM.
02-13-08, 05:03 PM
#60
Registered User
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm looking at two different wheels. The 9 with 45 Offset is a limited run set of Enkie RPF1s that got in a group buy from Rishie. So far there are only 10 pairs available on the planet(custom color/ custom offset) but that can change anytime, and I plan on using them track only. My the second set I'm looking at is 17.9.5-35 Advan RS for the street. Little heavier, little stronger, but I'll still be driving down the road like a running back in the super bowl dodging pot holes. I can't stand knock offs, so Rotas/sport max/Ebay deals are out. I may try to get some 5-Zigen, but I like the Advans way too much to compromise at this point.
02-13-08, 07:16 PM
#62
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kissimmee Fl
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow alot of controversy going on, I didnt even read everything its giving me a headache lol. Everyone is titled to their own oppions and preferences. Such as I don't know what phoenix7 is talking about about bending rims? I have bent one rim in my life time and that was on a 99 GST like 3 years ago when I wasnt paying attention and hit a pot hole 8" deep. If you are moderately careful you won't have any issues. Also in all reality my car looks low as **** but really isnt that low, the side skirts and front and rear bumpers just make it look so much lower than your cars.
I know you guys are talking about fast and track times yada yada yada. My FC is simply set up to drift and has no other purpose. It is not my DD, for a DD I have a 91 Volkswagon Jetta 1.8L 8V SOHC about 45 MPG! If I wanna go fast I have a 91 240 coupe with an RB26 in it that on the old turbo setup dynoed at 446WHP.
Everyone has made very good points, but you guys need to get over the I'm riht hes wrong theory. This post was posted because someone wanted to see pictures of "slammed" cars. Not a controvercial debate on why cars should or should not be slammed and how it affect this that and the other.
I know you guys are talking about fast and track times yada yada yada. My FC is simply set up to drift and has no other purpose. It is not my DD, for a DD I have a 91 Volkswagon Jetta 1.8L 8V SOHC about 45 MPG! If I wanna go fast I have a 91 240 coupe with an RB26 in it that on the old turbo setup dynoed at 446WHP.
Everyone has made very good points, but you guys need to get over the I'm riht hes wrong theory. This post was posted because someone wanted to see pictures of "slammed" cars. Not a controvercial debate on why cars should or should not be slammed and how it affect this that and the other.
02-13-08, 07:43 PM
#63
http://www.journal-topics.com/busine...z080213.1.html
http://www.fox28.com/News/index.php?ID=32930
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/7...oles08.article
http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2008...125.txt?sPos=3
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/15531577.html
http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...l/13328501.txt
Like I said, aluminum rims are more delicate but the steel ones still get bent.
I think it's funny to read about people wanting to "slam" their cars with their dorifto setups and then run around town in their dori dori cars. There ONCE was a time when race car suspensions were for RACE CARS. Those were the days of actual tuning after running a few laps and then seeing how messing with the dampening or other attributes affected the car. Seeing how a little more camber gave you more responsiveness around the track. A time when people actually did things to their car for more than aesthetics.
Those days are gone. We now have the Sleepy eyed look, the slammed look, the cambered look, the stretched tire look, the tucked tires look and any thread started by hypertek or anyone with "drift, takumi, dori, sidewayz, sliding" or any other form of drifting/Initial D themed name on this forum.
Drifting came in and took all the honda boys by storm. Those that were too young to be in the honda scene in the 90's drool like retards when they see this:
There are people out there who drift professionally and the street racers/drifter wannabes give THEM a bad name.
http://www.fox28.com/News/index.php?ID=32930
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/7...oles08.article
http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2008...125.txt?sPos=3
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/15531577.html
http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...l/13328501.txt
Like I said, aluminum rims are more delicate but the steel ones still get bent.
I think it's funny to read about people wanting to "slam" their cars with their dorifto setups and then run around town in their dori dori cars. There ONCE was a time when race car suspensions were for RACE CARS. Those were the days of actual tuning after running a few laps and then seeing how messing with the dampening or other attributes affected the car. Seeing how a little more camber gave you more responsiveness around the track. A time when people actually did things to their car for more than aesthetics.
Those days are gone. We now have the Sleepy eyed look, the slammed look, the cambered look, the stretched tire look, the tucked tires look and any thread started by hypertek or anyone with "drift, takumi, dori, sidewayz, sliding" or any other form of drifting/Initial D themed name on this forum.
Drifting came in and took all the honda boys by storm. Those that were too young to be in the honda scene in the 90's drool like retards when they see this:
There are people out there who drift professionally and the street racers/drifter wannabes give THEM a bad name.
Last edited by phoenix7; 02-13-08 at 08:05 PM.
02-13-08, 08:04 PM
#64
^^^^^^edited bitches.
When the F&F came out Drag racing hit an all time high. Then Initial D began in the underground anime scene. From there is grew like wildfire and today we have 5X the amount of drifting related BS on this forum than we did back in 2002.
Am I wrong? no, I'm seeing it FIRST HAND and I know i'm not the only one, I'm sure.
The worst BS I've heard: "naw man, a Hachi will run circles around an FC."
When the F&F came out Drag racing hit an all time high. Then Initial D began in the underground anime scene. From there is grew like wildfire and today we have 5X the amount of drifting related BS on this forum than we did back in 2002.
Am I wrong? no, I'm seeing it FIRST HAND and I know i'm not the only one, I'm sure.
The worst BS I've heard: "naw man, a Hachi will run circles around an FC."
Last edited by phoenix7; 02-13-08 at 08:11 PM.
02-13-08, 08:17 PM
#65
i agree with pheonix7 and roen on a couple of points..
1) slamming your car most of the time doesnt do **** besides make it harder to DD
2) tuning is the most important thing you can do, for anything, motor, suspension, driver, w/e
3) changing the geometry of travel or alignment can make a load of difference. ex. changing the camber for drifting (idk) can make it easier to control vs changing caster and camber for a specific track. no real track racer has a 1 size-fits-all suspension setup, hell change the specs on it depending on what and where.
4) stretched tires, idk, thats a whole nother issue. i worked at a tire shop for a while, and would not do stretched to save ourselves liability issues, as well as spacers, we wouldent touch a car if they had spacers.
and to pheonix7, on the low pro issue, have you seen 880 south into alameda/oakland? with my friends yota with lifted and dampened suspension i still felt like i was sitting on a jack hammer. immagine that with a tuned stiff suspension...................kill me now please.
peace
1) slamming your car most of the time doesnt do **** besides make it harder to DD
2) tuning is the most important thing you can do, for anything, motor, suspension, driver, w/e
3) changing the geometry of travel or alignment can make a load of difference. ex. changing the camber for drifting (idk) can make it easier to control vs changing caster and camber for a specific track. no real track racer has a 1 size-fits-all suspension setup, hell change the specs on it depending on what and where.
4) stretched tires, idk, thats a whole nother issue. i worked at a tire shop for a while, and would not do stretched to save ourselves liability issues, as well as spacers, we wouldent touch a car if they had spacers.
and to pheonix7, on the low pro issue, have you seen 880 south into alameda/oakland? with my friends yota with lifted and dampened suspension i still felt like i was sitting on a jack hammer. immagine that with a tuned stiff suspension...................kill me now please.
peace
02-13-08, 08:25 PM
#66
Don't get me wrong, theres alot of fanboys out there.
There will and always will be. Instead of getting all riled up , why not educate?
Alot of these " DRIFT " racers came from the streets.
Almost every big name tuner shop in Japan, US has/had their fair share on racing on the streets.
Not that I condone street racing, street drifting. Whatever.
I understand you don't like it, Cool. I'm not here to convert you
to like something you hate.
But don't try to talk about something you don't have any idea about.
What does Initial D, F&F have anything to do with this?
Thats the typical stereotype everything thinks.
Its like saying rotaries are unreliable and they blow for no reason.
I think its safe to say, the 13B is the most misunderstood engines out there
and theres so many angry, pissed off users on this forum, I never hear anything useful other that flaming and opinions.
There was a time where RX-7 owners actually drove and helped each other?
Since when, it seems like theres a sole group of people who flame and hate on every single car that is set up per drivers preference.
If its fast, looks good, and the user likes the set up. Whats there to hate?
Theres LS1 swapped FC/FDs getting more respect in this forum than drifters, Stretch tire users and low ride height. Thats sad.
I don't know whats more appealing to me...
A hard driven FC with fucked up ride height, ridiculous wheel fitment.
Or some internet raced, white trash 80s spec FC.
Maybe people like these cars but they are too scared to be the first one to step up.
Maybe its cooler to just follow some guy with a million posts so he can fit in.
Anyways, I don't want to beat a dead horse
As far as my car, it will be set up properly.
mild stretch for good fitment, RE01R 235/245 , Roll center blocks, Supernow toe rods, and tie rod ends for bump steer correction.
This season its going to be occasional time attack, lapping days to get the car settled and see what I like.
and some drift days for the sake of driving and having fun. Good tuning, lots of practice. Hopefully it will be a fun season.
There will and always will be. Instead of getting all riled up , why not educate?
Alot of these " DRIFT " racers came from the streets.
Almost every big name tuner shop in Japan, US has/had their fair share on racing on the streets.
Not that I condone street racing, street drifting. Whatever.
I understand you don't like it, Cool. I'm not here to convert you
to like something you hate.
But don't try to talk about something you don't have any idea about.
What does Initial D, F&F have anything to do with this?
Thats the typical stereotype everything thinks.
Its like saying rotaries are unreliable and they blow for no reason.
I think its safe to say, the 13B is the most misunderstood engines out there
and theres so many angry, pissed off users on this forum, I never hear anything useful other that flaming and opinions.
There was a time where RX-7 owners actually drove and helped each other?
Since when, it seems like theres a sole group of people who flame and hate on every single car that is set up per drivers preference.
If its fast, looks good, and the user likes the set up. Whats there to hate?
Theres LS1 swapped FC/FDs getting more respect in this forum than drifters, Stretch tire users and low ride height. Thats sad.
I don't know whats more appealing to me...
A hard driven FC with fucked up ride height, ridiculous wheel fitment.
Or some internet raced, white trash 80s spec FC.
Maybe people like these cars but they are too scared to be the first one to step up.
Maybe its cooler to just follow some guy with a million posts so he can fit in.
Anyways, I don't want to beat a dead horse
As far as my car, it will be set up properly.
mild stretch for good fitment, RE01R 235/245 , Roll center blocks, Supernow toe rods, and tie rod ends for bump steer correction.
This season its going to be occasional time attack, lapping days to get the car settled and see what I like.
and some drift days for the sake of driving and having fun. Good tuning, lots of practice. Hopefully it will be a fun season.
Last edited by Risky Devil; 02-13-08 at 08:40 PM.
02-13-08, 08:45 PM
#68
RACECAR.
On street tires, stock chassis.
18x10.5/11 265/35 stretch.
Fucked up ride height with relocated suspension pick up points.
Laps the fastest RWD record around Tsukuba circuit.
But it doesn't matter, ***** ******* gay.
Its low and it has stretch.
GAHH why can't they use properly sized tires
That wing is gay too, I bet Panspeed didn't even wind tunnel test that.
No way could it be fast.
On street tires, stock chassis.
18x10.5/11 265/35 stretch.
Fucked up ride height with relocated suspension pick up points.
Laps the fastest RWD record around Tsukuba circuit.
But it doesn't matter, ***** ******* gay.
Its low and it has stretch.
GAHH why can't they use properly sized tires
That wing is gay too, I bet Panspeed didn't even wind tunnel test that.
No way could it be fast.
02-13-08, 09:34 PM
#69
Registered User
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Night Zone, I'm not here to banter like before. I think you;re fist post is some what true but teh second is a little...biased? I know the Panspeed cars are in you blog, so you should know that the wide body is not a stock chassis. Hypertek chose the wrong to make example of. Panspeed make great parts, and even better race cars. If in this particular instance you thin Roen, Phoenix, and I were way off the mark of the original topic and were preaching to choir, then so be it. Track guys will always have their tastes, show guys will always have theirs. I'm going to leave it at that.
02-13-08, 09:40 PM
#71
Tsukuba Time attack has strict regulations.
Some are similar to our Redline time attack.
I don't have their exact rule book. But they do not permit tube chassis cars and R-Compound slicks.
I don't know which FC owners are show guys.
Some are used to promote their shop/companies.
Its not like FC guys have $12,000 Veilside kits to show off.
I think everyone wants a great car. Some people have limited budgets or knowledge to do so. We all started from somewhere.
Theres track rats, drag car , drifting enthusiasts...
We're all here to share knowledge and shed light on topics.
I don't hate any type of racing nor should any one else.
I think we all get enough stereotypes from non RX-7 owners
Only reason why I'm actually spending my time to write this crap is I'd rather give someone
advice and some support while they are actually doing something with their car, even if I have to walk in
a room full of haters.
Some are similar to our Redline time attack.
I don't have their exact rule book. But they do not permit tube chassis cars and R-Compound slicks.
I don't know which FC owners are show guys.
Some are used to promote their shop/companies.
Its not like FC guys have $12,000 Veilside kits to show off.
I think everyone wants a great car. Some people have limited budgets or knowledge to do so. We all started from somewhere.
Theres track rats, drag car , drifting enthusiasts...
We're all here to share knowledge and shed light on topics.
I don't hate any type of racing nor should any one else.
I think we all get enough stereotypes from non RX-7 owners
Only reason why I'm actually spending my time to write this crap is I'd rather give someone
advice and some support while they are actually doing something with their car, even if I have to walk in
a room full of haters.
Last edited by Risky Devil; 02-13-08 at 09:48 PM.
02-13-08, 09:46 PM
#73
Registered User
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Pacifica
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By show, I meant guys who like the car to look mean, but don't beat the hell out their rides because they respect them for what they've become. I can tell you this mate, parts coming form Japan are just as expensive in Chicago as they are in San Francisco, and they get here just as slow. Racer or Ricer, both equal enthusiast. But problems will always arise when one thinks they've got it right over the other.
02-13-08, 09:55 PM
#74
Passenger
Location: So. CaL
Posts: n/a
and i'm surprised that I HAVE TO BE THE ONE, to tell you to do a SEARCH! :lol
there's pics of dumped FC all over this site!! not just that, but all over google... yahoo.... whatever!!
i remember being new to the site asking for ****, and getting "popped" by others to do a search before opening a new thread.... and they were RIGHT!! i hardly ever made a thread that's already been went over!! and we all know that saves lots of space for the servers, but the inconsiderate won't care!! not until the servers go down and everyone complains...
"kids are lucky these days, having everything HANDED to them."
