Slammed?
02-12-08, 08:15 PM
#26
Yea.....compare race cars to street cars......
Put it this way, just looking at those cars and emulating their characteristics will make your car suck worse than stock. Each of those cars are engineered, tested on the road, track and wind tunnel to find the right balance of parts and settings.
Raise your hand if you have enough money to do wind tunnel testing......yea, thought so.
I'm sure you guys have tires that match the level of grip of those cars.....
Notice how those tires aren't stretched? omgwtfbbq??? Tires sticking out of fenders is also illegal in most states.
Point is, some cars are "slammed" because they can control their roll couple much better than our cars can. This means they actually benefit from lower CG, I'll tell you why our cars don't a bit later.
Additionally, they're running ridiculous high spring rates, that actually work, because their tires need that high of a spring rate. You run that high on your car and say bye bye to traction, because the suspension has no compliance. If you were to slam your FC that low, your roll center would be so far underneath the ground that you would have more body roll than stock until you start using 10 kg/ 8kg springs. Using springs that hard on the street is doable, but ride suffers on poor roads, (on nice roads, it's sorta ok), and traction suffers in the corners because your suspension has no give anymore. It's great for drifting, I guess, and we all know drifting's all about going fast, right guys?
Point is, a car has to be set-up with everything in mind to go fast. Just slamming your car won't really do much for you, in fact, it could hurt you. Arguably, it looks better, I personally don't think it looks better, unless it's done to a track car properly, with the right aero mods. Other than the aesthetic reasons, I don't really see a point to it and personally, would never consciously do anything to adversely impact the handling and cornering capability of my ride.
Put it this way, just looking at those cars and emulating their characteristics will make your car suck worse than stock. Each of those cars are engineered, tested on the road, track and wind tunnel to find the right balance of parts and settings.
Raise your hand if you have enough money to do wind tunnel testing......yea, thought so.
I'm sure you guys have tires that match the level of grip of those cars.....
Notice how those tires aren't stretched? omgwtfbbq??? Tires sticking out of fenders is also illegal in most states.
Point is, some cars are "slammed" because they can control their roll couple much better than our cars can. This means they actually benefit from lower CG, I'll tell you why our cars don't a bit later.
Additionally, they're running ridiculous high spring rates, that actually work, because their tires need that high of a spring rate. You run that high on your car and say bye bye to traction, because the suspension has no compliance. If you were to slam your FC that low, your roll center would be so far underneath the ground that you would have more body roll than stock until you start using 10 kg/ 8kg springs. Using springs that hard on the street is doable, but ride suffers on poor roads, (on nice roads, it's sorta ok), and traction suffers in the corners because your suspension has no give anymore. It's great for drifting, I guess, and we all know drifting's all about going fast, right guys?
Point is, a car has to be set-up with everything in mind to go fast. Just slamming your car won't really do much for you, in fact, it could hurt you. Arguably, it looks better, I personally don't think it looks better, unless it's done to a track car properly, with the right aero mods. Other than the aesthetic reasons, I don't really see a point to it and personally, would never consciously do anything to adversely impact the handling and cornering capability of my ride.
02-12-08, 08:25 PM
#28
race cars to street cars .. bahh
tuned street cars.. last i recall, the cars hitting tsukuba circuit are tuned production cars.. Easily buildable thanks to the aftermarket parts available, which are also availible on the market to guess what, our street cars!
Granted those cars have proper cages.. I was not comparing the build up of that vs. the typical slammed car.. Just merely showing that it is possible to run with hard with stretched tires. *you must be blind to say those are not stretched*
We all know a slammed FC isnt the ideal canidate for a time attack car,*granted that FD has better suspension geometry then FC* but those slammed drift cars will see alot more hard driving then you probably even do..
tuned street cars.. last i recall, the cars hitting tsukuba circuit are tuned production cars.. Easily buildable thanks to the aftermarket parts available, which are also availible on the market to guess what, our street cars!
Granted those cars have proper cages.. I was not comparing the build up of that vs. the typical slammed car.. Just merely showing that it is possible to run with hard with stretched tires. *you must be blind to say those are not stretched*
We all know a slammed FC isnt the ideal canidate for a time attack car,*granted that FD has better suspension geometry then FC* but those slammed drift cars will see alot more hard driving then you probably even do..
02-12-08, 08:26 PM
#29
OMG he really just compared a street car to a race car????
thanks for the quote roen, I might have missed this gem.
This thread needs more SOY.
the last post is even better!!!!! SIG WORTHY!
thanks for the quote roen, I might have missed this gem.This thread needs more SOY.
the last post is even better!!!!! SIG WORTHY!
02-12-08, 08:42 PM
#32
id like to see a picture of your car if you dont mind. =p
is it stock? what have you done to it. thanks
so i can see if you can back up your claims with your own personal car setup.. or if you drive a near stock fc.
I know you like to bash on me about car setups, but if you cant post your own car to back up your claims, i will take your advice with a grain of salt.
is it stock? what have you done to it. thanks
so i can see if you can back up your claims with your own personal car setup.. or if you drive a near stock fc.
I know you like to bash on me about car setups, but if you cant post your own car to back up your claims, i will take your advice with a grain of salt.
02-12-08, 08:59 PM
#33
of course no problem at all, knock yourself out.
My wife's NA:
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-non-technical-pictures-198/200k-miles-714257/
My current TII project:
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-non-technical-pictures-198/my-second-tii-project-719355/
I know you like to look down on cars that aren't set up like yours. After all we don't ALL buy someones finished project and act badass about it afterwards.
My wife's NA:
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-non-technical-pictures-198/200k-miles-714257/
My current TII project:
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-non-technical-pictures-198/my-second-tii-project-719355/
I know you like to look down on cars that aren't set up like yours. After all we don't ALL buy someones finished project and act badass about it afterwards.
Last edited by phoenix7; 02-12-08 at 09:06 PM.
02-12-08, 09:43 PM
#34
They track slammed FC's, but there's no guarantee that it's the proper setup.
Take my advice with a grain of salt, but if you don't understand suspension theory, you should probably do some reading, instead of just copying what you see. I've explained to you why people slam cars, but unless you've done all the supporting mods, I wouldn't do it. I'll give you an example. I had GF210 springs on Koni shocks. By doing that I increased body roll, and I had to wait an extra half second before the load settled in turns. Mind you, that's not exactly very fun, nor is it fast. Out came the springs, in went the stiffest stock length spring I could find. GF210's are 3 kg/2 kg with a 1.5" drop.
There are two ways to reduce the effects of body roll, either increase roll resistance, which I consider a bandaid, or reduce the roll couple, which is the best way to do it, as that is killing it at its source.
If you can entirely eliminate the roll couple by positioning the roll center at the center of gravity, you will have no body roll and can therefore, eliminate any anti-sway bars. The only problem is that the roll couple changes length when the car is moving, so you can't really do that. The proper way to do this is to use suspension position sensors to figure out exactly what your suspension is doing. That way you can position your roll center so that the mean squared deviation from the roll center is minimized from your suspension position model. That'll eliminate most of your body roll.
That being said, in practice, it's hard to do that. That's why most people just bolt on stiffer sway bars. That comes with the fun side effect of making the suspension somewhat dependent. You can also go about it by using stiffer springs, but that will lead to loads of other problems. The practical way to go about it is to talk to the people who do the empirical tests and see how they do it.
However, in the data that I've seen, the further you lower your car without a roll center adapter/corrector/block, you will lower your roll center at a faster rate than your center of gravity, which translates to more body roll. That means to counter that you need to run stiffer springs and sway bars, which will adversely affect your handling than if you picked the ideal spring rate to deal with minimum body roll. We're talking the difference between being able to keep your foot planted at WOT versus spinning tires, losing traction and losing tenths of seconds.
It's just like shocks. Think outside the box when it comes to shocks. You don't need adjustability with shocks. If you're interested, I'll elaborate more.
My personal car setup is due to class restrictions and budget concerns. Go fast, do it cheap, win your class. In two years, I will have a different setup in preparation for a national campaign.
Mazdatrix DTSS Eliminators
Mazda Competition Engine Mounts
Mazda Competition Transmission Mounts
Mazda Competition Front Differential Mount
Mazda Competition Rear Differential Mounts
Power Slot Cryo Rotors
Hawk HPS Brake Pads
Mazdatrix DOT-legal Brake Lines
RB Torque Brace
Aftermarket Strut Tower Brace Bar
RB Oil Baffle Plate
Mazdatrix Spark Plug Wires
RB Header
RB Pre-silencer
RB Cat-back
K&N Drop-In Filter
Bilstein shocks
TII Springs
Rtek 2.0
225/50/16 Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R on stock 16 x 7 wheels
Making 170 whp on a stock NA motor, competitive with cars running R-compounds in the same class, finished 5th place with this setup in class for the year, running only half of the events scheduled.
In conclusion, if you can control your roll center, and by consequence, your body roll, then go and slam your car, since you will realize the benefits of the lowest center of gravity. Just using springs and sway bars won't be enough; a car setup like that can still be made to go faster. If you can't, you have to figure out where's the ideal point that'll make your car the fastest. Though I can guarantee you, it's not the lowest setting.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT SUSPENSION:
Most people are fast despite their setups, not because of it.
That being said, two equal drivers in equal cars, the car that's set up better will always win.
Phoenix7, your GTUs only gets 150 whp? Hmm....we should compare setups, I'm getting 170 whp on stock motor. I never did like those Pineapple inserts.
Take my advice with a grain of salt, but if you don't understand suspension theory, you should probably do some reading, instead of just copying what you see. I've explained to you why people slam cars, but unless you've done all the supporting mods, I wouldn't do it. I'll give you an example. I had GF210 springs on Koni shocks. By doing that I increased body roll, and I had to wait an extra half second before the load settled in turns. Mind you, that's not exactly very fun, nor is it fast. Out came the springs, in went the stiffest stock length spring I could find. GF210's are 3 kg/2 kg with a 1.5" drop.
There are two ways to reduce the effects of body roll, either increase roll resistance, which I consider a bandaid, or reduce the roll couple, which is the best way to do it, as that is killing it at its source.
If you can entirely eliminate the roll couple by positioning the roll center at the center of gravity, you will have no body roll and can therefore, eliminate any anti-sway bars. The only problem is that the roll couple changes length when the car is moving, so you can't really do that. The proper way to do this is to use suspension position sensors to figure out exactly what your suspension is doing. That way you can position your roll center so that the mean squared deviation from the roll center is minimized from your suspension position model. That'll eliminate most of your body roll.
That being said, in practice, it's hard to do that. That's why most people just bolt on stiffer sway bars. That comes with the fun side effect of making the suspension somewhat dependent. You can also go about it by using stiffer springs, but that will lead to loads of other problems. The practical way to go about it is to talk to the people who do the empirical tests and see how they do it.
However, in the data that I've seen, the further you lower your car without a roll center adapter/corrector/block, you will lower your roll center at a faster rate than your center of gravity, which translates to more body roll. That means to counter that you need to run stiffer springs and sway bars, which will adversely affect your handling than if you picked the ideal spring rate to deal with minimum body roll. We're talking the difference between being able to keep your foot planted at WOT versus spinning tires, losing traction and losing tenths of seconds.
It's just like shocks. Think outside the box when it comes to shocks. You don't need adjustability with shocks. If you're interested, I'll elaborate more.
My personal car setup is due to class restrictions and budget concerns. Go fast, do it cheap, win your class. In two years, I will have a different setup in preparation for a national campaign.
Mazdatrix DTSS Eliminators
Mazda Competition Engine Mounts
Mazda Competition Transmission Mounts
Mazda Competition Front Differential Mount
Mazda Competition Rear Differential Mounts
Power Slot Cryo Rotors
Hawk HPS Brake Pads
Mazdatrix DOT-legal Brake Lines
RB Torque Brace
Aftermarket Strut Tower Brace Bar
RB Oil Baffle Plate
Mazdatrix Spark Plug Wires
RB Header
RB Pre-silencer
RB Cat-back
K&N Drop-In Filter
Bilstein shocks
TII Springs
Rtek 2.0
225/50/16 Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R on stock 16 x 7 wheels
Making 170 whp on a stock NA motor, competitive with cars running R-compounds in the same class, finished 5th place with this setup in class for the year, running only half of the events scheduled.
In conclusion, if you can control your roll center, and by consequence, your body roll, then go and slam your car, since you will realize the benefits of the lowest center of gravity. Just using springs and sway bars won't be enough; a car setup like that can still be made to go faster. If you can't, you have to figure out where's the ideal point that'll make your car the fastest. Though I can guarantee you, it's not the lowest setting.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT SUSPENSION:
Most people are fast despite their setups, not because of it.
That being said, two equal drivers in equal cars, the car that's set up better will always win.
Phoenix7, your GTUs only gets 150 whp? Hmm....we should compare setups, I'm getting 170 whp on stock motor. I never did like those Pineapple inserts.
Last edited by Roen; 02-12-08 at 10:05 PM.
02-12-08, 10:20 PM
#35
^^^^
Best post I've seen in the tech section in a while.
Yeah, only 150. I know I can squeeze some more out but I'm lagging on my wideband install. I'll be able to fine tune then. The inserts haven't given me any problems.
I still have the old dynosheets and all but I'm waiting to finish the TII before I do anything else to the NA. I need one car up and running while the other gets worked on. Thinking of having the injectors cleaned next but I need to finish the TII.
Best post I've seen in the tech section in a while.
Yeah, only 150. I know I can squeeze some more out but I'm lagging on my wideband install. I'll be able to fine tune then. The inserts haven't given me any problems.
I still have the old dynosheets and all but I'm waiting to finish the TII before I do anything else to the NA. I need one car up and running while the other gets worked on. Thinking of having the injectors cleaned next but I need to finish the TII.
02-12-08, 11:09 PM
#36
I loved how this car handled at the track. Every lap Brooke would get on the gas earlier and earlier and it felt so sweet as it carved the turn. I'll post pics of turn 5/5A of thunderhill as soon as I can get them and post it in the 200K NA thread.
Check your PMs Roen.
Check your PMs Roen.
02-13-08, 01:08 AM
#39
THere are ways to correct suspension geometry
Relocated the pivot of the LCA
Relocate the anchor, or rock some aftermarket tie rod ends to comphensate
FOr the rear *pic borrowed form ziptied*
uhh yah you guys still had basic suspension bolt ons.. nothing too extreme on your list
so before you guys start questioning and saying slammed stuff doesnt work properly, look at the mods that are done to make it work before thinking its just slammed.
Im not tryin to feud anyone, im jus supporting the fact that it can be done..
Relocated the pivot of the LCA
Relocate the anchor, or rock some aftermarket tie rod ends to comphensate
FOr the rear *pic borrowed form ziptied*
uhh yah you guys still had basic suspension bolt ons.. nothing too extreme on your list
so before you guys start questioning and saying slammed stuff doesnt work properly, look at the mods that are done to make it work before thinking its just slammed.
Im not tryin to feud anyone, im jus supporting the fact that it can be done..
Last edited by Hypertek; 02-13-08 at 01:17 AM.
02-13-08, 09:47 AM
#40
Yea, we agree on that point, but my consequent point is, how many of those parts do you really see on street cars, that will be trying to follow the slammed approach?
Not many that I know of. I wish a lot more people would stop focusing on the extremes, and focus on the average user. The average slammed person just takes either cut springs or coilovers and just drops the car without any other mods. That right there, is deficient for handling. Just slamming the car does not work properly, is and has always been my main point in this debate.
Is your car slammed? If so, does your car have it's geometry corrected? What did you do about roll center? Bump steer? I'd like to see what out of the box solutions you have, as if it works, I'd like to add it to my knowledge base.
Sorry to pick on you, but I just want to illustrate something.
This looks aggressive, but doesn't speak fast to me. Tires are much too small for the wheel, and the wheel looks shoehorned in with loads of camber, affecting acceleration and braking more so than improving handling. With that much rear camber and that little tire, I wouldn't be surprised if this car understeer at the limit, but I'm just guessing from a photo. Also, wheel size is much too large, and adversely affects acceleration, braking and cornerning. The ratio of the weight of the wheel vs. the amount of tire you have is much too high. Body kit serves to add weight and once again, adversely affects the "go fast" aspect of the car, while accentuating the "go fast look". Car like this would be a good build for drifting, as suspension seems to have no give and that, assuming it's the turbo model, application of power will easily cause loss of traction in the rear. With a suspension setup with proper shocks, springs, sway bars and toe angles, this could see some time in the drifting world. However, on the racetrack, such a setup would be slow among similarly modded cars. Not trying to offend anyone, but that's just my honest opinion.
Now this car, wheels are properly sized for tire and don't add on any additional unsprung weight than what is needed. Tires are cambered to the proper specs, though to be fair, FD's run lower static camber in the front than FC's. Rear camber is not too excessive, promoting good acceleration as well as tire grip in the corners. Body kit is limited to aero affecting parts only, with no consideration to form taking priority over function. Ratio of wheel weight to tire width acceptable, to provide both maximum acceleration and traction.
See how the cars look similarly, but are built much differently? And, we all know what we call people with cars that look fast, but don't go fast right?
Some of AWR parts, like the rear toe kit in the last picture, I wouldn't run on the street because they're not designed to be self-cleaning, which I found out the hard way. Frequent servicing is a bitch, but if you get those parts, be prepared to maintain them. Dirt and crap will seize those parts like no tomorrow.
I have basic bolt-ons because I don't have a 15k a year racing budget to be serious. I still have my designs on what I'm going to do when I achieve that budget in a couple of years.
Just because I don't have the money doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. You have to understand why a very low ride height works for racing teams and doesn't work for normal street cars. Once you realize that, you have to understand that there is no comparison between the two.
You can track a slammed car, hell you can track anything you want, as long as it's safe. It just won't be going as fast as it could be going, and I bet, if I give an improperly set up car a few tweaks, these guys would be gaining at least half a second per lap.
It's up to the owner whether they want to go as fast as possible or simply cruise. If it's the latter, then enjoy the cars. But for me, I try to make my car as fast as I can in the condition that it is.
Not many that I know of. I wish a lot more people would stop focusing on the extremes, and focus on the average user. The average slammed person just takes either cut springs or coilovers and just drops the car without any other mods. That right there, is deficient for handling. Just slamming the car does not work properly, is and has always been my main point in this debate.
Is your car slammed? If so, does your car have it's geometry corrected? What did you do about roll center? Bump steer? I'd like to see what out of the box solutions you have, as if it works, I'd like to add it to my knowledge base.
Sorry to pick on you, but I just want to illustrate something.
This looks aggressive, but doesn't speak fast to me. Tires are much too small for the wheel, and the wheel looks shoehorned in with loads of camber, affecting acceleration and braking more so than improving handling. With that much rear camber and that little tire, I wouldn't be surprised if this car understeer at the limit, but I'm just guessing from a photo. Also, wheel size is much too large, and adversely affects acceleration, braking and cornerning. The ratio of the weight of the wheel vs. the amount of tire you have is much too high. Body kit serves to add weight and once again, adversely affects the "go fast" aspect of the car, while accentuating the "go fast look". Car like this would be a good build for drifting, as suspension seems to have no give and that, assuming it's the turbo model, application of power will easily cause loss of traction in the rear. With a suspension setup with proper shocks, springs, sway bars and toe angles, this could see some time in the drifting world. However, on the racetrack, such a setup would be slow among similarly modded cars. Not trying to offend anyone, but that's just my honest opinion.
Now this car, wheels are properly sized for tire and don't add on any additional unsprung weight than what is needed. Tires are cambered to the proper specs, though to be fair, FD's run lower static camber in the front than FC's. Rear camber is not too excessive, promoting good acceleration as well as tire grip in the corners. Body kit is limited to aero affecting parts only, with no consideration to form taking priority over function. Ratio of wheel weight to tire width acceptable, to provide both maximum acceleration and traction.
See how the cars look similarly, but are built much differently? And, we all know what we call people with cars that look fast, but don't go fast right?
Some of AWR parts, like the rear toe kit in the last picture, I wouldn't run on the street because they're not designed to be self-cleaning, which I found out the hard way. Frequent servicing is a bitch, but if you get those parts, be prepared to maintain them. Dirt and crap will seize those parts like no tomorrow.
I have basic bolt-ons because I don't have a 15k a year racing budget to be serious. I still have my designs on what I'm going to do when I achieve that budget in a couple of years.
Just because I don't have the money doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. You have to understand why a very low ride height works for racing teams and doesn't work for normal street cars. Once you realize that, you have to understand that there is no comparison between the two.
You can track a slammed car, hell you can track anything you want, as long as it's safe. It just won't be going as fast as it could be going, and I bet, if I give an improperly set up car a few tweaks, these guys would be gaining at least half a second per lap.
It's up to the owner whether they want to go as fast as possible or simply cruise. If it's the latter, then enjoy the cars. But for me, I try to make my car as fast as I can in the condition that it is.
Last edited by Roen; 02-13-08 at 10:03 AM.
02-13-08, 01:03 PM
#45
Am I the only one that thinks a baseline is important for tuning? I can easilly afford coilovers but I need to push the car until the current suspension is used to it's full potential. SO when I do upgrade I know what I'm doing.
If I went ahead and got coilovers for my car I'd have to start from scratch with nothing to base my suspension adjustments on.
Am I the only one that this makes sense to?
If I went ahead and got coilovers for my car I'd have to start from scratch with nothing to base my suspension adjustments on.
Am I the only one that this makes sense to?
02-13-08, 01:21 PM
#46
Nope, you're not the only one, I pushed the limits of upgraded shocks only, so now I have to move on to custom valved shocks and GC springs. Man, it's expensive to be competitive. I think I'll be going with Bilsteins since it's the cheaper of the two. (Compared to Koni). I hate calculating critical values, but I need to get my car corner weighted before hand, with the GC coilover springs. Then I'll know exactly what I need to send to the Bilstein factory.
I didn't see this, but here's a quick response.
Street drivers slam the car for the sake of slamming. The general population just wants the look without figuring out ideal suspension geometry. I believe this statement is fairly accurate in describing the "slammers" that I've seen on this forum. You're definitely not the first advocate of slamming, and you're not going to be the last, but the common theme between most of the "slammers" that I've seen is preference for street driving with little regard to track driving.
Tuned production cars lower (not slam) their car to the ideal point after multiple rounds of testing. And no, my eyes aren't blind. Those tires don't look stretched, if there is any stretch, it's minimal. Look closer. They definitely don't look like 215s on 9s or 225s on 10s. Most likely they look like 235's on 9's. You can run with stretched tires, no ones says you can't. However, it's not ideal, and you could go faster by picking a proper tire fitment. Is it wrong to go faster?
At least its refreshing to see that you don't think slamming is the ideal way to go. Especially with FC mcstruts, even with correctors, slamming will still adversely affect handling. Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's right. I wouldn't say people with slammed cars drive harder than us track rats either. Unless hard driving is sideways sliding?
race cars to street cars .. bahh
tuned street cars.. last i recall, the cars hitting tsukuba circuit are tuned production cars.. Easily buildable thanks to the aftermarket parts available, which are also availible on the market to guess what, our street cars!
Granted those cars have proper cages.. I was not comparing the build up of that vs. the typical slammed car.. Just merely showing that it is possible to run with hard with stretched tires. *you must be blind to say those are not stretched*
We all know a slammed FC isnt the ideal canidate for a time attack car,*granted that FD has better suspension geometry then FC* but those slammed drift cars will see alot more hard driving then you probably even do..
tuned street cars.. last i recall, the cars hitting tsukuba circuit are tuned production cars.. Easily buildable thanks to the aftermarket parts available, which are also availible on the market to guess what, our street cars!
Granted those cars have proper cages.. I was not comparing the build up of that vs. the typical slammed car.. Just merely showing that it is possible to run with hard with stretched tires. *you must be blind to say those are not stretched*
We all know a slammed FC isnt the ideal canidate for a time attack car,*granted that FD has better suspension geometry then FC* but those slammed drift cars will see alot more hard driving then you probably even do..
Street drivers slam the car for the sake of slamming. The general population just wants the look without figuring out ideal suspension geometry. I believe this statement is fairly accurate in describing the "slammers" that I've seen on this forum. You're definitely not the first advocate of slamming, and you're not going to be the last, but the common theme between most of the "slammers" that I've seen is preference for street driving with little regard to track driving.
Tuned production cars lower (not slam) their car to the ideal point after multiple rounds of testing. And no, my eyes aren't blind. Those tires don't look stretched, if there is any stretch, it's minimal. Look closer. They definitely don't look like 215s on 9s or 225s on 10s. Most likely they look like 235's on 9's. You can run with stretched tires, no ones says you can't. However, it's not ideal, and you could go faster by picking a proper tire fitment. Is it wrong to go faster?
At least its refreshing to see that you don't think slamming is the ideal way to go. Especially with FC mcstruts, even with correctors, slamming will still adversely affect handling. Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's right. I wouldn't say people with slammed cars drive harder than us track rats either. Unless hard driving is sideways sliding?
02-13-08, 01:23 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by phoenix7
Am I the only one that thinks a baseline is important for tuning? I can easilly afford coilovers but I need to push the car until the current suspension is used to it's full potential. SO when I do upgrade I know what I'm doing.
If I went ahead and got coilovers for my car I'd have to start from scratch with nothing to base my suspension adjustments on.
Am I the only one that this makes sense to?
If I went ahead and got coilovers for my car I'd have to start from scratch with nothing to base my suspension adjustments on.
Am I the only one that this makes sense to?
My car is purpose built, and has FAR more than just coilovers. I think a baseline is important for tuning, but there is not 1 single baselone for everyone. Everyone builds their cars for different purposes, types of driving, and their own personal driving style. The motor and turbo in my car are rebuilt yet both still stock, I just have a few bolt ons, the boost is a little higher etc.. but its pushing all the power I need/want at this point. Once I fel I have maxed out the power I have then I will work on that.
02-13-08, 01:24 PM
#48
All I've tried in the front is 225s, there is some room to go a little bigger I just need $ for new tires lol.
My car is purpose built, and has FAR more than just coilovers. I think a baseline is important for tuning, but there is not 1 single baselone for everyone. Everyone builds their cars for different purposes, types of driving, and their own personal driving style. The motor and turbo in my car are rebuilt yet both still stock, I just have a few bolt ons, the boost is a little higher etc.. but its pushing all the power I need/want at this point. Once I fel I have maxed out the power I have then I will work on that.
My car is purpose built, and has FAR more than just coilovers. I think a baseline is important for tuning, but there is not 1 single baselone for everyone. Everyone builds their cars for different purposes, types of driving, and their own personal driving style. The motor and turbo in my car are rebuilt yet both still stock, I just have a few bolt ons, the boost is a little higher etc.. but its pushing all the power I need/want at this point. Once I fel I have maxed out the power I have then I will work on that.
My mistake, I thought you were running 255's in the front? I'm debating between 245 and 255 on my 9", +30 rims at home, I'm hoping to fit a 255 there on pure stock, unmodified fenders.
While I agree everyone has their own driving style, here's my take on how to set up your car to be able to drive the fastest.
The car is governed by the amount of force it can generate, whether it be forwards, backwards, sideways, 'round corners, you get the picture. Physics is still king.
That being said, a car's grip is directly based off the suspension's capability to generate that grip. All else being equal, the primary determinants are the ride height, suspension angles, spring rate, sway bars and, most importantly, shock force curves.
Ride height, I've mentioned in a previous post. It is a big factor in determining and eliminating body roll.
Angles can be determined through testing and the car. For FC's on the track, anywhere from -2.0 to -4.0 degrees in the front for Camber. Popular vote is -3.5 degrees, due to the McStruts. In the rear, Camber should be between -1.0 degrees and -1.5 degrees. Popular vote is 1.5 degrees. I would go with -4.0/-1.5, or -3.5 in the front depending on track, but mostly -4.0.
Toe depends on the speed you're going. Autocross calls for front toe-out, Road Course usually calls for slight toe-in, but I usually run toe-out since my power is still pretty low and I'm confident that I can control my car at high speeds with toe-out.
Rear toe is usually 0 if you have DTSS, 1/16' toe-in if you don't.
Spring Rate is determined by the natural frequency that is needed for the racing you'll be doing. On the road course, 2.5 Hz sounds about right. On the autox, depending how streetable you want your car, either 1.5 Hz or 2.2 Hz. Motion ratio is also a big factor, it explains why FD's run spring rates 30% - 50% higher than FC's.
Sway Bars should be done on the front only, if everything is set up correctly, the rear needs all the traction it can get. Here, subjectivity can help a little bit.
Lastly, Shock Force Curves are dependent on spring rate and by consequence, NF. The force curve is just the response of the shock as it moves between speeds (i.e. forces acting on the shock). It makes no difference what type of surface you drive on, as the only thing it experiences is force. That being said, at each and every point, there is only one force per speed that generates the most grip. Combine all of those, and that becomes the ideal curve. In order to take advantage of this, valve the shock to get as close to the ideal curve as you can.
Suspension is a mix of objectivity and subjectivity, but it is important to remain as objective as you can, since you are trying to get as close as you can to the physical maximums. Driver preference plays a small role in this. Even veteran track junkies who threw away their old driving style and adjusted their style to the ideal curve that they were unfamiliar with, noticed improvements in their driving and lap times.
Being subjective will allow you to maximize your current setup.
Being objective will allow you to have the potential of the ideal setup.
Being the right amount of both will allow your to maximize the ideal setup.
And isn't that what we want in the end?
Last edited by Roen; 02-13-08 at 01:44 PM.
02-13-08, 01:56 PM
#49
Nope, you're not the only one, I pushed the limits of upgraded shocks only, so now I have to move on to custom valved shocks and GC springs. Man, it's expensive to be competitive. I think I'll be going with Bilsteins since it's the cheaper of the two. (Compared to Koni). I hate calculating critical values, but I need to get my car corner weighted before hand, with the GC coilover springs. Then I'll know exactly what I need to send to the Bilstein factory.
I didn't see this, but here's a quick response.
Street drivers slam the car for the sake of slamming. The general population just wants the look without figuring out ideal suspension geometry. I believe this statement is fairly accurate in describing the "slammers" that I've seen on this forum. You're definitely not the first advocate of slamming, and you're not going to be the last, but the common theme between most of the "slammers" that I've seen is preference for street driving with little regard to track driving.
Tuned production cars lower (not slam) their car to the ideal point after multiple rounds of testing. And no, my eyes aren't blind. Those tires don't look stretched, if there is any stretch, it's minimal. Look closer. They definitely don't look like 215s on 9s or 225s on 10s. Most likely they look like 235's on 9's. You can run with stretched tires, no ones says you can't. However, it's not ideal, and you could go faster by picking a proper tire fitment. Is it wrong to go faster?
At least its refreshing to see that you don't think slamming is the ideal way to go. Especially with FC mcstruts, even with correctors, slamming will still adversely affect handling. Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's right. I wouldn't say people with slammed cars drive harder than us track rats either. Unless hard driving is sideways sliding?
Street drivers slam the car for the sake of slamming. The general population just wants the look without figuring out ideal suspension geometry. I believe this statement is fairly accurate in describing the "slammers" that I've seen on this forum. You're definitely not the first advocate of slamming, and you're not going to be the last, but the common theme between most of the "slammers" that I've seen is preference for street driving with little regard to track driving.
Tuned production cars lower (not slam) their car to the ideal point after multiple rounds of testing. And no, my eyes aren't blind. Those tires don't look stretched, if there is any stretch, it's minimal. Look closer. They definitely don't look like 215s on 9s or 225s on 10s. Most likely they look like 235's on 9's. You can run with stretched tires, no ones says you can't. However, it's not ideal, and you could go faster by picking a proper tire fitment. Is it wrong to go faster?
At least its refreshing to see that you don't think slamming is the ideal way to go. Especially with FC mcstruts, even with correctors, slamming will still adversely affect handling. Just because people do it, doesn't mean it's right. I wouldn't say people with slammed cars drive harder than us track rats either. Unless hard driving is sideways sliding?
How big can I go? 18's? 19's?
then you ask them how wide and they say 7!
People give me whit for running 16's then I tell then they are 8.5's and then they say:
ok, you still need to go with a larger diameter. LOOKS BETTER! 
Sucks to see how "looking" cool is now BETTER than actually BEING "fast"
Driving sideways is great, to learn how far you can push your car and yourself. Once you know what you and your car can DO you can push BOTH harder around the track. When/IF you get too crazy and go too hot you can always pull out of it (like the vid I sent you!
). A few seconds lost is better than off-track and damage.BTW: thanks for making this lost-cause of a thread into something interesting. Now if people get the hint they'll head to the suspension section and start reading the archives and old threads. There are so many hidden gems throughout this forum that are being overlooked and nobody reads them because they are in the "Slammed FC" thread.
Last edited by phoenix7; 02-13-08 at 02:13 PM.
02-13-08, 02:49 PM
#50
i respect everyones ideas here..
to each his own, I dont really think anyone said slammed is better then not slammed.. I didnt say it was better, i just said it works. you guys just have to accept the fact that some people will do it. if you guys keep arguing that its pointless, then it will never end.
you guys are still stuck in the 90's era of car tuning, we got a thing now called double adjustable coilovers that allow you to corner weight your car with adjustments of the spring perch and ride height perch.
see how much more advanced it is over typical shock/springs?
this is why slamemd cars are able to handle. the bottom perch is what you adjust for your ride height. Being that is seperate, you can adjust tension/prelude on the spring to suit your taste. Being that the shock body is shorter then conventional shocks, you have plenty of suspension travel left.
Stiffer suspension with minimal body roll feels dam good, esp on smooth tracks. ever drive a go kart? (yes poor example, but simular feeling with a slammed stiff car)
Heres a lap of tsukuba in that blue FC w/coilovers, he pulled a 1.04 laptime which is respectible. Minimal body roll!!
http://www.h6.dion.ne.jp/~haya/fc3sh...60212_0104.mov
IF YOU HAVENT DRIVEN A CAR WITH SAID SETUP, THEN YOU CANT REALLY TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVENT EXPERIENCED.
I wont even talk about your 16s.. soo much tire sidewall it probably flexes alot and "scrubs" at hard cornering, esp with body roll.
to each his own, I dont really think anyone said slammed is better then not slammed.. I didnt say it was better, i just said it works. you guys just have to accept the fact that some people will do it. if you guys keep arguing that its pointless, then it will never end.
you guys are still stuck in the 90's era of car tuning, we got a thing now called double adjustable coilovers that allow you to corner weight your car with adjustments of the spring perch and ride height perch.
see how much more advanced it is over typical shock/springs?
this is why slamemd cars are able to handle. the bottom perch is what you adjust for your ride height. Being that is seperate, you can adjust tension/prelude on the spring to suit your taste. Being that the shock body is shorter then conventional shocks, you have plenty of suspension travel left.
Stiffer suspension with minimal body roll feels dam good, esp on smooth tracks. ever drive a go kart? (yes poor example, but simular feeling with a slammed stiff car)
Heres a lap of tsukuba in that blue FC w/coilovers, he pulled a 1.04 laptime which is respectible. Minimal body roll!!
http://www.h6.dion.ne.jp/~haya/fc3sh...60212_0104.mov
IF YOU HAVENT DRIVEN A CAR WITH SAID SETUP, THEN YOU CANT REALLY TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVENT EXPERIENCED.
I wont even talk about your 16s.. soo much tire sidewall it probably flexes alot and "scrubs" at hard cornering, esp with body roll.