is it necessary Shimming Eccentric Shaft Thermowax Pellet
#26
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Wankel7
Why is it better for the car to warm up faster NZ?
Just off the hip the only reason I could think Mazda would want that is so that the main cat gets to opp temp faster and lowers the cars emmissions?
Originally Posted by BlaCkPlaGUE
I think what NZ is trying to say is that the engine needs to warm up in a specific order. If you alter this order by putting the pellet in, certain parts of the engine remain cold while others get hot. Metal expands when its hot, so this could cause some unwanted wear im sure over time.
Originally Posted by Syonyk
As near as I've been able to tell, the thermal pellet is one of those "Crap, we have to make this damn thing pass emissions" devices... sort of like the 3k RPM startup.
The thermal pellet restricts oil flow to the rear rotor during cold startup.
Originally Posted by dDuB
...how is it a good idea to restrict oil flow to half the engine basically?
Originally Posted by Wankel7
The question is....did the 787B have one?
Originally Posted by dDuB
Solid Pellet Advantanges:
Full flow of oil to engine all the time, not just after it's warmed up. Wont fail.
Full flow of oil to engine all the time, not just after it's warmed up. Wont fail.
If you don't want to use one on your engine that fine by me. Just leave the dodgy engineering excuses behind and admit you're too cheap and/or lazy to buy a replacement.
#27
Sharp Claws
iTrader: (30)
we've been over all sides of the argument, i have yet to see anyone come here and say "my engine blew up because i removed the t-stat" or "my engine blew up since i put in a thermal pellet". they may very well reduce heat transfer but the cooling capability is still high enough that it is usually a tradeoff and no short or even long term harm is being done. i would much rather have more oil on parts than less... friction or heat? i will stick with heat, not friction..
some people have driven without t-stats for ages and had no problems, when i hear or see evidence that it is doing significant damage to the engine then i will believe it.
some people have driven without t-stats for ages and had no problems, when i hear or see evidence that it is doing significant damage to the engine then i will believe it.
#29
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Karack
i have yet to see anyone come here and say "my engine blew up because i removed the t-stat" or "my engine blew up since i put in a thermal pellet".
i would much rather have more oil on parts than less...
friction or heat? i will stick with heat, not friction.
when i hear or see evidence that it is doing significant damage to the engine then i will believe it.
This post is what exactly I meant by dodgy engineering excuses.
#30
Sharp Claws
iTrader: (30)
"A significant percentage of the engine's overall wear takes place when the engine is cold. This has been known and understood since before you were born. It would be a little silly for you to say you didn't believe this... "
i do believe this, it is what i am trying to convey. when an engine sits oil runs off of components, oiling them as soon as possible will reduce the friction and wear.
by removing the pellet it increases the flow rate which in turn reduces the ability of heat transfer to take place resulting in higher temps. i don't think it's all that confusing, i'm just replying to what was posted earlier.
i do believe this, it is what i am trying to convey. when an engine sits oil runs off of components, oiling them as soon as possible will reduce the friction and wear.
by removing the pellet it increases the flow rate which in turn reduces the ability of heat transfer to take place resulting in higher temps. i don't think it's all that confusing, i'm just replying to what was posted earlier.
#31
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Karack
when an engine sits oil runs off of components, oiling them as soon as possible will reduce the friction and wear.
by removing the pellet it increases the flow rate which in turn reduces the ability of heat transfer to take place resulting in higher temps.
#32
Sharp Claws
iTrader: (30)
mmmf, i was thinking of a coolant thermostat which restricts flow... anyhow it just causes the rotors to take longer to heat up. in any case the t-stat can fail and provide less than adequate oiling for the rotors, a risk i would prefer to avoid, being my main concern here.
#34
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Karack
in any case the t-stat can fail and provide less than adequate oiling for the rotors, a risk i would prefer to avoid...
Originally Posted by dDuB
I'm not cheap, I just don't like the idea of oil being restricted in any way.
Tell me why no prior 1986 rotary vehicles had this?
The whole argument against the thermal bypass pellet seems to be based on the assumptions that (a) it's failure-prone and (b) it causes damage to the bearings due to lack of lubrication. Both of these points are completely untrue, and nobody has offered anything to prove otherwise.
#35
i am legendary
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 8,478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe, maybe not. I guess we can just leave it at you (and everyone else like you) have your beliefs about it, and we have ours.
I have read enough recommendations and blurbs about why this is a good mod by well respected rotary builders to believe what I do. I have also read all the other sides of it, and they all make good points too. I just came to this decision because I felt it was better.
Maybe I was right, maybe I wasn't, oh well
I have read enough recommendations and blurbs about why this is a good mod by well respected rotary builders to believe what I do. I have also read all the other sides of it, and they all make good points too. I just came to this decision because I felt it was better.
Maybe I was right, maybe I wasn't, oh well
#36
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by dDuB
I guess we can just leave it at you (and everyone else like you) have your beliefs about it, and we have ours.
Originally Posted by Syonyk
The thermal pellet restricts oil flow to the rear rotor during cold startup. There's still lots of combustion going on, and the rotor will get plenty hot without oil flowing to it. Strangely enough, these engines almost ALWAYS blow the rear rotor first.
#37
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
Not to pick on Aaron, since this a common attitude here, but IMO this advice is wrong. The thermal bypass pellet is there for a good reason; to get the engine up to temp faster. The reasons for this are pretty obvious and have been discussed many times before, so they don't need to be covered here. The thermal bypass is a component that is known to fail now that these cars are 14-19 years old, and there's absolutely no reason to expect that if you replace it with a new functioning pellet that it won't last just as long again. This is not a failure-prone part, it simply fails when it gets very old. There are no good engineering reasons for not having a functioning thermal bypass valve in your engine. Shimming the old valve or using a solid pellet is just a cheap-*** way of avoiding spending money on a new part.
Of course, it's opinion. I doubt that many engines have died due to failure of this part. I am, however, of the thought that I don't like hidden and difficult to troubleshoot failure points. Also, the solid pellets are cheaper then the thermal pellet.
#38
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
from what i take from all this it isnt much of a worry about replacing it until you actually are rebuilding the engine does this sound right? so ill just let it how it is until i rebuild the engine then replace it but i am still undecided on getting a solid one or a thermal pellet what do you's prefer
#39
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
I missed this bit earlier. Apart from the fact that both rotors are affected equally by the thermal bypass's operation, when an engine "blows", it's almost always due to apex seal failure. The only thing the thermal bypass can possibly effect is the rotor bearings, so there is absolutely no connection here. This is yet another example of dodgy engineering excuses. How can you argue against something when you don't understand what it does or how it works?
-=Russ=-
#41
I live in an igloo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: calgary alberta
Posts: 2,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I'll stick with NZ on this topic. He knows his ****, he layed it all out for us, and I think the best idea is what he said.
Buy a brand new one, install it, and it will outlive the rest of the cars life. They don't fail, only after 10 years of driving do they have a chance to fail.
Someone should make a guide on how to replace it.
Buy a brand new one, install it, and it will outlive the rest of the cars life. They don't fail, only after 10 years of driving do they have a chance to fail.
Someone should make a guide on how to replace it.
#42
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
...my only issues that that is no real way to tell that the pellet has failed other then a slight change in oil pressure...
Originally Posted by Syonyk
It also affects the rotor surface temperatures, which are a known location for carbon buildup. I would tend to think that higher temperatures would leak to decreased carbon buildup...
#43
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
thanks for all the help where would i get a new thermal bypass pellet there isn't any rotary shops around me that i know of i get all my parts online is there any web sites that sell them new also what would be a good motor oil to use on my s5 t2 and s5 n/a when i change the oil soon
#44
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Of course, it's opinion. I doubt that many engines have died due to failure of this part.
In my opinion failure of the thermovalve will lead to apex seal failure through the rotor internally heating or bearing failure and the rotor shifting position against the worn bearings (chatter at high speed).
#45
I personally would be inclined to believe that the rotor surface, being part of the combustion chamber, will reach operating temperature significantly faster than the oil, running through a cold engine, and having nearly 6 quarts to heat.
-=Russ=-
-=Russ=-
#46
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Syonyk
I personally would be inclined to believe that the rotor surface, being part of the combustion chamber, will reach operating temperature significantly faster than the oil, running through a cold engine, and having nearly 6 quarts to heat.
#48
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Karack
technical engineers or emissions engineers?
#49
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
i got another question i dont need to rebuild my engine i only know the simple things like oil changing replacing some belts alternators exhaust ect the easy stuff i was wondering if i were to buy the video of the step by step rebuild video and watch it would i be able to gain alot of knowledge on the complete engine do you's think it would help me understand alot more then i do now