slidingsky

Ive put about 200 miles on my new twin disc carbon ats clutch. I go the pressure plate and flywheel carbon coated.
BIG problems. It feels nice, alittle heavy. Quick, but slippable engagment. I would not say its like driving a stock clutch.
The problem. Warped center plate. My 20b isnt running prefect. Its alittle unresponsive becuase I added my FMIC and didnt retune. SO the only way to drive the car is to slip it alittle. Well I guess I killed my center plate. SUcks. Its cheap, relatively. Still you cant abuse these things like everyone says. They are incrediably delicate about over heating. I guess its the carbon on metal. I was alot more rough on my OS triple. Im actually not very happy. The hardest part about the triple was hills. Turns out the ATS isnts going to make it any easier. I am early in the break in period, but I did NOT race this clutch. All street miles. I think I may need to tune for streetablity on a cheap clutch then put the ATS in and tune for power. Suck! ATS guys are really nice, but with race parts theres no warranty.
I dont think Id buy this thing again. Id rather deal with a street twin with metal disc. Carbon doesnt seem like a real streetable solution.
Sky

paximus

iTrader: (1)

Good info.
Thanks for contributing.

CCarlisi

That's too bad. It is about 7lbs lighter than the Exedy metallic twinplate and not much more expensive, so I was planning on buying one. How do you know the center plate is warped? Which disk set do you have, soft, standard, or Type-R? I assume you have the 1,350kg pressure plate.

Thanks a lot for posting your feedback.

87GTR

iTrader: (61)

yeah I have one on order for my FC. I picked standard. how do you know you warped it? do you have some pics of the warpage?

I drove a 550hp 13b FC with one and it was really easy to drive in traffic. yeah not at nice as stock but for a twin plate I think it gives the one of the best engagment for street use.

I also drive a 20b fd with a HKS GD max twin plate. It was on and off, not much slip action. but sitting at a light the HKS makes an ungodly amount of noise. where the ATS carbon does not.

slidingsky

Well I need to get it out of the car, but I called ATS and the tech said it was most likely my center disc.
I noticed the problem last night. At a stop light the car would not go into gear. The clutch depressed I forced the tranny into 1st, just sung. I turned off the car and put it into first and restarted the car. That seemed to work ok. I know the plates are opening up. You can hear them rattle. I wasnt sure if I didnt have enough throw on the clutch pedal so I stopped at sears and bought a wrench to bring the engagement point further up. When I got back after an hour or so I set it to where I wanted and tried to get the car into first with the engine running. No luck. Clutch was still rattlin away. Stoped the engine, put the car in 1st and restarted the car with the clutch down. This time the car jumped foward. It was just for a second, and it freed up. Still didnt wanna go in gear at a stop. I cant think of anyother way for the discs to stick together, unless they werent completely disengaging. I put the ATS pivot ball in when I installed the clutch and cut/ extended the slave's drive pin, the rod that connects the fork and cylinder. That gave me some decient freeplay. Originally with just the ATS pivot the clutch was on the ground with the adjuster in the car all the way out. Can stand driving like this so I took up the slack. The only thing I can think it that somehow getting the pedal postion I want caused the clutch to stay slightly disengaged.
ATS warns about making sure that the slave will return to the furthest back position. When I exteneded the slave rod I took alot of slack out of the slave, so it had more travel. I checked the fork and replaced the throw out bearing when the ATS went in. Anyone got any ideas? I thought maybe I could have taken too much throw out of the slave so it was mechanically, not hydrolically forcing the fork against the pressure plate. BUT how on earth could I possibly force that much pressure against the plate.
BTW it is the standard twin with the carbon coating options and the heavy plate. I think Id rather have gotten the lighter plate in the triple.

RETed

I think it's the pilot bearing.


-Ted

slidingsky

Yep I think your right ted. I cant see how slipping the clutch for more than a second on the street would warp the plates.
ATS warns heavily against anything more than a second, but with the ECU alittle off its almost impossible.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

That is kinda wierd that they say not to slip it. In the exedy clutch catalog, when reading about their carbon clutches, they say three- five second slips are needed before hard driving to get the clutch up to temp. Otherwise it wont grab as hard. Strange.

onefastrx7

You said you were a lot more rough on the OS Giken triple.
Since i bought the OS triple from you, I really would like to hear how rough you were on it?:-)

I have driven ATS twins and triples in Supras, 300z, 350Z, evo, but no RX7.
No issues... if installed right...

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

So in the general consensus that CF isn't very streetable? Stick w/ a metal disc?

And does anyone have any experience w/ the Ogura aka ORC clutches? I hear they work like a dream...

~Ramy

onefastrx7

I do not think that one review makes the CF clutches unstreetable.
In 99% of the cases the CF clutches are perfectly streetable compared to the metal disk clutches.

slidingsky

Its streetable, I just was confused with what ATS said. No more than 1 sec slipping durring break in. When its broken in they say you must warm up the plates. 3 sec half clutch with the rear locked, than 30secs with the clutch depressed to cool. Just kinda wonderin how your supposed to tune a car with a new carbon disc in. You have to slip the clutch until the ECu works well.
Once its broken in I think itll be fine. The break in seems alittle difficult especially in traffic.
The triple is much harder to drive becuase of its super light flywheel. Youll see, thats why I got rid of it. You have to get used to it and slip it abit to get the car moving. The engagement point on the triple is super small. That along with the flywheel, ugg dont what to remember all that embarassment in traffic.
ATS just makes this thing sound very delicate. So far I have had to slip it for a sec or two, usually up hill. Its been ok. I was just paranoid after talkin to the ATS guys.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

QUOTE=onefastrx7]I do not think that one review makes the CF clutches unstreetable.
In 99% of the cases the CF clutches are perfectly streetable compared to the metal disk clutches.[/QUOTE]My bad. I just haven't seen a lot of info about the CF clutches on the forum, save the Exedy twin plate CF clutch with D-Core sprung hub, which seems to get excellent reviews...

I'm personally stuck between that Exedy clutch, and an ORC clutch, which I've heard very little but very positive feedback about. And I'm *still* trying to decide between CF and metal disc clutches... =-/

~Ramy

sillbeer

I have the ats triple and hope to be driving on it in a month or so. I had the os giken triple before that and didn't have any issues with it. What TO bearing are you using? I bought the larger mazdaspeed TO bearing for my ats. A local guy had that same problem with his os twin in his fc. Not being able to go into first gear. He was using the stock TO bearing. He bought the mazdaspeed TO bearing and it fixed the problem.

-Destin

slidingsky

Damn it I didnt know they had a different size bearing. I cut and welded the slaves arm. It gave me decient throw on pedal, but that bearing sounds like a better fix.

sillbeer

Here's where I got the to bearing.

http://www.japanparts.com/

-Destin

power hungry

Did you have to email them. I cant find the part?

sillbeer

Yes I had to email them. They put tape over the part number so I can't read it all. It's QCC5-16???????. Thats whats on the box anyways. The number on the bearing is RCT363SA1. I just told them I wanted a mazdaspeed throw out bearing for an 89 turbo rx7.


-Destin

RETed

Okay, we managed to take it apart and found out the carbon disc (only front) was contaminated (don't even ask).

Since this was carbon, I suggested to soak it in some kinda cleaner (we used brake cleaner) and then burn the bitch, since carbon can take insane amounts of heat.
The "cleaned" disc looked okay, so the clutch went back together.

The trans looked like it was leaking out the front seal, so the front trans seal will be replaced at the same time.

The discs all look okay.
I gave them a quick visual inspection, and nothing looked funny.

It looks like we managed to escape killing a $1,800 clutch!
Whew!


-Ted

1sgen

iTrader: (1)

i called mazda speed for the TO bearing you are talking about and they said they dont offer any for the fc trans. the only thing they had was a small bearing for the the tilton trans .

sillbeer

If you go to this link and ask for one they will get it for you.

-Destin

CMonakar

I noticed Horsepowerfreaks.com is no longer carrying ATS clutches. What the current opinion of their carbon clutches?

slidingsky

get it from ats usa. The guy was super nice.
Clutch is fine. Problem was the engines previous owner didnt seal the ecc shaft to the CW. Sprayed oil into the center of the clutch. Luckly the oil cleaned out very well. Any normal clutch wouldnt have survived. I should have checked, but I was so excited to get it running.
Id never drive a metal clutch. Id either lower my power expectations to an organic or but the carbon.
Not as nice as an organic, but noticable better than the metals. Engagement is still short and the heavy plate is pretty heavy. Spend the money and get the triple with the light PP. Slipping is smooth, but throw is short.

CMonakar

I'm not concerned about cost (lost that battle awhile ago), but I am concerned about rotating weight and the engagement being gradual. I would think that adding an additional disk would make it more difficult to modulate.

slidingsky

I dont think it matters after 2 discs. Think about it.... your waiting for the right moment when the clearances between two discs have equal pressure and friction aross them. What would change if theres one more in the mix. Going from 1 to twins might make a differance. Your not going to find anything nicer than a carbon clutch, be it twin or triple. Unless you could find a twin or triple organic? Never heard of except for diesels. A metal multiplate is a bitch. Dont get one no matter what they say. THe carbon is easier but nowhere near an organic. I wonder if it has to do with the friction coef.? Carbon is smoother than my old OS triple, but because the engagement is tiny its still difficult to just jump into. Noone I knew could drive the metal triple I had except for me. Even my drift friend couldnt get it up the hill from my house. The carbon is doable, and you wont feel bad burning it alittle. Although it is not advised from ATS.
Id never but anything but a performance organic, which is pointless on a 20b or a carbon.
Rotating mass actually works backwards at some point. The ATS is slower than the os triple. They weight the same. but the ats has a solid flywheel. Carbon discs weigh nothing. ITs a real pain in the *** to double clutch the OS becuase itd pick up sooo fast. Like the tranny wouldnt let me into gear fast enough or could I stomp on the clutch twice. I tried only depressing the clutch once as I down shifted, but the gate in the tranny is to slow. Its blinding quick. Its also a really pain driving around town having to move so quick to downshift. The ATS is still fast, but comfortable. Its nothing I think would make your lap times noticably faster.
What else could you concider if money is not an option. Carbon is what all the big cars use.
If you can afford it get the triple with the carbon coated flywheel/PP. I got the twin. Im going to be running street tires and dont care for drag racing. I figure at the limit of the clutch Id be roasting tires long before. I kinda wish I fronted the extra money and got the softer triple. I got the heave PP. Its pretty bad. A girl, or guy with girly legs would sturggle in traffic.
sorry to be so ling and redundant.