20B Ignition Breakup Issues
05-26-07, 11:57 AM
#1
20B Ignition Breakup Issues
I need your help with an ignition issue I'm currently having. You may want to refer to my thread on the conversion (it's way, way long) https://www.rx7club.com/build-threads-292/kilo-racing-3-rotor-fd-conversion-325733/.
In short, the car, after many $$ and almost 3 years, is finally done and I'll actually get to drive it again soon. Major props to Gotham for saving the day and fixing all the issues caused by Wolf USA.
Anyway, the car has just been tuned by Steve Kan and currently makes about 520 RWHP at 14 lbs. of boost. I'm running a T51R BB kit from Australia and the Haltech E11 as well as the Aquamist system. I also have installed a Jacobs Accuvolt system to ensure stable voltage and MSD coils.
The problem is the car is experiencing ignition breakup above 14 lbs of boost so I am unable to extract the extra 100-150 HP I'd like to make. One solution to this issue is to wait until MSD comes out with their ignition amp unit for the 20B, due out sometime in the next 12 months.
As I am an impatient person, does anyone else have a solution that might help solve the problem? Any ideas?
In short, the car, after many $$ and almost 3 years, is finally done and I'll actually get to drive it again soon. Major props to Gotham for saving the day and fixing all the issues caused by Wolf USA.
Anyway, the car has just been tuned by Steve Kan and currently makes about 520 RWHP at 14 lbs. of boost. I'm running a T51R BB kit from Australia and the Haltech E11 as well as the Aquamist system. I also have installed a Jacobs Accuvolt system to ensure stable voltage and MSD coils.
The problem is the car is experiencing ignition breakup above 14 lbs of boost so I am unable to extract the extra 100-150 HP I'd like to make. One solution to this issue is to wait until MSD comes out with their ignition amp unit for the 20B, due out sometime in the next 12 months.
As I am an impatient person, does anyone else have a solution that might help solve the problem? Any ideas?
05-26-07, 12:54 PM
#2
I need your help with an ignition issue I'm currently having. You may want to refer to my thread on the conversion (it's way, way long) https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=325733.
In short, the car, after many $$ and almost 3 years, is finally done and I'll actually get to drive it again soon. Major props to Gotham for saving the day and fixing all the issues caused by Wolf USA.
Anyway, the car has just been tuned by Steve Kan and currently makes about 520 RWHP at 14 lbs. of boost. I'm running a T51R BB kit from Australia and the Haltech E11 as well as the Aquamist system. I also have installed a Jacobs Accuvolt system to ensure stable voltage and MSD coils.
The problem is the car is experiencing ignition breakup above 14 lbs of boost so I am unable to extract the extra 100-150 HP I'd like to make. One solution to this issue is to wait until MSD comes out with their ignition amp unit for the 20B, due out sometime in the next 12 months.
As I am an impatient person, does anyone else have a solution that might help solve the problem? Any ideas?
In short, the car, after many $$ and almost 3 years, is finally done and I'll actually get to drive it again soon. Major props to Gotham for saving the day and fixing all the issues caused by Wolf USA.
Anyway, the car has just been tuned by Steve Kan and currently makes about 520 RWHP at 14 lbs. of boost. I'm running a T51R BB kit from Australia and the Haltech E11 as well as the Aquamist system. I also have installed a Jacobs Accuvolt system to ensure stable voltage and MSD coils.
The problem is the car is experiencing ignition breakup above 14 lbs of boost so I am unable to extract the extra 100-150 HP I'd like to make. One solution to this issue is to wait until MSD comes out with their ignition amp unit for the 20B, due out sometime in the next 12 months.
As I am an impatient person, does anyone else have a solution that might help solve the problem? Any ideas?
So what's wrong with the present MSD units?
All that's going to change soon as I start to wire in my own ecu for my 20b. After 3 yrs of dealing with your project, I'm sure your patience is waining.
05-26-07, 06:09 PM
#5
MSD coils from Haltech?
Probably LS-1 coils.
I know of some people having problems with the LS1's misfiring and requiring some very high dwell time to fire and then there are others that have no problems with them even on extreme high hosepower applications.
What's the ignition setup on David's 20b?
Probably LS-1 coils.
I know of some people having problems with the LS1's misfiring and requiring some very high dwell time to fire and then there are others that have no problems with them even on extreme high hosepower applications.
What's the ignition setup on David's 20b?
05-26-07, 07:10 PM
#6
Here is a pic of the MSD coils I'm running:
Gotham ordered them so I don't know if they came from Haltech. Don't think so though.
I don't think anything is wrong with the current coils. Steve Kan indicates he doesn't believe they're firing at capacity and the spark needs to be stronger.
Anyone have any experience with running an ignition amplification unit on a 20B?
Gotham ordered them so I don't know if they came from Haltech. Don't think so though.
I don't think anything is wrong with the current coils. Steve Kan indicates he doesn't believe they're firing at capacity and the spark needs to be stronger.
Anyone have any experience with running an ignition amplification unit on a 20B?
05-26-07, 07:55 PM
#7
rebreaking things
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Did he play around with dwell control?
The two CDI amps that I recommend are:
-M&W Pro 16 CDI: M&W has lots of rotary experience and is one of the few product lines that Motec resells. The dealer that I bought my ECU from runs motorcycle engines up to 18,000 rpms with M&W amps. Boost or no Boost, that is a pretty harsh operating environment!
-Motec CDI 8: Motec's new CDI amp is really trick. You can run it off a CAN style signal with an MX00 ECU to cut down on wiring and ecu channels used. Their amps are widely used in professional motorsports.
These companies are catering to a different segment of the market than MSD. They are more expensive, but you get what you pay for.
Keep in mind that if you get a CDI AMP I'm pretty sure you will need to replace those coils.
The two CDI amps that I recommend are:
-M&W Pro 16 CDI: M&W has lots of rotary experience and is one of the few product lines that Motec resells. The dealer that I bought my ECU from runs motorcycle engines up to 18,000 rpms with M&W amps. Boost or no Boost, that is a pretty harsh operating environment!
-Motec CDI 8: Motec's new CDI amp is really trick. You can run it off a CAN style signal with an MX00 ECU to cut down on wiring and ecu channels used. Their amps are widely used in professional motorsports.
These companies are catering to a different segment of the market than MSD. They are more expensive, but you get what you pay for.
Keep in mind that if you get a CDI AMP I'm pretty sure you will need to replace those coils.
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05-26-07, 09:24 PM
#9
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First, I don't believe you can use an external CDI amplifier with coils that have built in igniters. Second, they are inductive coils. CDI coils have a lower resistance and inductance level that helps transfer spark energy better and make them less prone to overheating due to the short CDI voltage risk time.
Last edited by CMonakar; 05-26-07 at 09:31 PM.
05-29-07, 09:05 AM
#12
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I'm using 3 Jacob's Pro Street kits for leadings and 3 LS1 coils for trailings. . .It will be up and running soon (July 7th Steve will be tuning my car) if you feel like waiting tha tmuch longer for some results. . .I too am running a big single and AQM AI.
My first iteration was using 6 x LS1 coils, and I had some real studdering around 4500 RPM, I never hammered it out fully, but it could very well be due to ignition.
Good luck.
ryan
My first iteration was using 6 x LS1 coils, and I had some real studdering around 4500 RPM, I never hammered it out fully, but it could very well be due to ignition.
Good luck.
ryan
05-29-07, 01:28 PM
#13
I'm using 3 Jacob's Pro Street kits for leadings and 3 LS1 coils for trailings. . .It will be up and running soon (July 7th Steve will be tuning my car) if you feel like waiting tha tmuch longer for some results. . .I too am running a big single and AQM AI.
My first iteration was using 6 x LS1 coils, and I had some real studdering around 4500 RPM, I never hammered it out fully, but it could very well be due to ignition.
Good luck.
ryan
My first iteration was using 6 x LS1 coils, and I had some real studdering around 4500 RPM, I never hammered it out fully, but it could very well be due to ignition.
Good luck.
ryan
Any yes, July 7th is too long to wait although I'd still like to see your results.
05-29-07, 02:53 PM
#14
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To be honest, I am by NO means a EE, Steve would probably know whether or not turning up the voltage would would work.
I figured as much about the time being too long, I'll definitely be posting results though.
Good luck bringing your epic adventure to a close
ryan
I figured as much about the time being too long, I'll definitely be posting results though.
Good luck bringing your epic adventure to a close
ryan
05-30-07, 11:46 AM
#15
Okay, so here is where I'm at. The coils are already hooked up to the Jacobs Accuvolt unit and Steve doesn't want to turn up the voltage any more on the car so that idea is out.
I also spend some time today on the phone with the M&W US distributor. He confirms Crispeed's assumption that the ignition amp will not work with my coils because they have a built in ignitor. He also does not recommend that I replace the coils or buy the ignition amp unit - kind of refreshing for a sales person not to try to sell something to you.
He believes the MSD coils are a good way to go on the 3 rotor and also feels I should not have a breakup issue, especially at this level of boost. He gave me several recommendations on how to trace the problem and I've passed these on to Steve Kan. He's placing his money on dwell being incorrectly set on the car.
We'll see.
I also spend some time today on the phone with the M&W US distributor. He confirms Crispeed's assumption that the ignition amp will not work with my coils because they have a built in ignitor. He also does not recommend that I replace the coils or buy the ignition amp unit - kind of refreshing for a sales person not to try to sell something to you.
He believes the MSD coils are a good way to go on the 3 rotor and also feels I should not have a breakup issue, especially at this level of boost. He gave me several recommendations on how to trace the problem and I've passed these on to Steve Kan. He's placing his money on dwell being incorrectly set on the car.
We'll see.
05-30-07, 12:08 PM
#16
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I'll be curious to see the results. . .please do post back with your findings. . .
What are you using for your AI? Water, Alky, Mix?
Did you mention that to the M&W guy as well? More than just boost inhibiting ignition in your setup.
You're almost out of the woods man, I bet you're stoked.
Good luck.
ryan
What are you using for your AI? Water, Alky, Mix?
Did you mention that to the M&W guy as well? More than just boost inhibiting ignition in your setup.
You're almost out of the woods man, I bet you're stoked.
Good luck.
ryan
05-30-07, 01:38 PM
#17
I'll be curious to see the results. . .please do post back with your findings. . .
What are you using for your AI? Water, Alky, Mix?
Did you mention that to the M&W guy as well? More than just boost inhibiting ignition in your setup.
You're almost out of the woods man, I bet you're stoked.
Good luck.
ryan
What are you using for your AI? Water, Alky, Mix?
Did you mention that to the M&W guy as well? More than just boost inhibiting ignition in your setup.
You're almost out of the woods man, I bet you're stoked.
Good luck.
ryan
So I've passed on this info to Steve Kan and we'll see where we go from here. Will post the solution and then the results. Thanks for all of the help. I really do appreciate it.
05-31-07, 08:08 AM
#19
What Steve is concerned about in this type of configuration is getting timing to be correct. Again, this is definately not my area of expertise, but Steve says we'd need to adjust timing for the 3 trailing coils via the Haltech and thru the ignition amp unit for the leading coils. He's very concerned about increasing the compelxity and having something go wrong.
He's going to call the MSD rep today so we'll see where we go from here.
05-31-07, 03:17 PM
#20
The safest way would be to use 6 X 8207 MSD Blaster Coils with 2 X DIS-4 plus ignition boxes. That setup has supported 920 rwhp for me.
The good thing about the E-8/11 software is that you can select seperate firing 'edges' for the trailing and leading ignition outputs so in that way you can use an ignition amp on the leading which normally require a 'rising edge' signal and a factory type igniter/coil on the trailing which normally require a 'falling edge' signal.
The good thing about the E-8/11 software is that you can select seperate firing 'edges' for the trailing and leading ignition outputs so in that way you can use an ignition amp on the leading which normally require a 'rising edge' signal and a factory type igniter/coil on the trailing which normally require a 'falling edge' signal.
06-04-07, 02:44 PM
#21
^We took Crispeed's advice (2 DIS-4 Plus units and 6 8207 coils) and have ordered the above setup for the car. Parts are due in tomorrow and hopefully we'll have a result by the end of this week. Also hope it will be an end to the car "saga".
06-05-07, 07:49 PM
#23
^We'll see if the DIS-4 Plus works well. One unit is being wired for the leading coils and one for the trailing ones. Gotham received the components this afternoon and is busy tonigh working on the car. Would think they'll have it wrapped up tomorrow.
06-21-07, 02:57 AM
#25
YOUR TRIANGLE NIGHTMARE
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david are you the guy who made 480whp with the t51 and 520whp with the aquamist kit. sounds like we have similar hp expectations and motor setups. let us know what the new hp figures are when you get the ignition issue fixed. good luck