look guys i'm not sayin it's just a simple conversion or swap....i never said that...haha. i'm sayin that obviously there's custom fab stuff and stuff like that that will take up a lot of the money...but what EXACTLY is all of that custom fab stuff. i know the engine is cheap and that on a front clip everything will need to be changed anyways. i was pretty much going to do that anyways. the only thing i'm going to keep is the actual engine, stock turbos it comes with, and probably little else. i'm going to port the engine, but not rebuild it since it does not need a rebuild. the engine is fine in condition and if anything does happen to it i could go back and get a replacement. but that's not my concern. i know the custom piping and labor costs are the expencive part of my whole project, but as stupid as this sounds: that's not my concern either. hypothetically speaking here: if i had a complete front clip (without chassis though) of a 20b, what is EVERY little thing that i would need to do to it and EXACTLY how much would it cost? i know about the radiator, intercooler, intercooler piping, complete standalone, new fuel pump with fuel lines, new hosing and piping all over the car (something i don't HAVE to do but am going to anyways), new injectors with probably a new fuel rail, a relocated battery, and a couple of other things i'm forgetting right now. what i want to know now is what parts exactly do you need if you have a complete front clip of a 20b and around how much would it cost, and if what the person before said about the trannys of 20bs always bein automatic and that a 13b tranny will fit fine on a 20b or not? i'm just tryin to get some help here and seein if overall it's worth it. i know it doesn't cost less than 10k for everything i wrote so far, but for what i can get and do, it wouldn't cost more than 15k for everything i wrote. i could be wrong though....tell me the numbers and facts.....again thanks guys...help much appreciated...

 

please go to the 20b forum with this. . .

 

Explain why you would go through the trouble to pull the motor apart, port it, use 3mm apex seals and not replace all the other seals, gaskets, and springs? I only ask because there is no telling how long the motor has been sitting, I don't care if it runs or not, the seals, gaskets and springs wear in different ways and you would have to put them back in the exact same place they were removed from or you could risk doing more damage to your motor. Also why would you pay to port your motor and only use the stock turbos?

 

If you are dead set on making a 20b, learn how to make mounts and crossmembers - learn how to weld, Or tac-weld them once you get the dimensions right and have a local welder put down some beads for you.

Also, get a standalone - get a damn megasquirt or something if you can, but I dont know if that would work with a 3rotor. You could spend a lot of money on the ECM and then have to spend a lot more on tuning. EDIT: In batch mode I think a megasquirt would work, but I dont have a clue how youd control spark... heh.

Also, if you can weld, you can do exhaust plumbing **** a lot cheaper than having someone do it for you - but if you cant then youre going to spend a ton of money to get not a lot of performance out of it, your saving grace would be the chassis itself being so light weight.

Are you in this for a 20b, or in this for more displacement and/or performance?

 

yeah ask guys from the 20B forum... get it from the horses mouth. I imagine that there is a bunch of custom parts needed to connect everything and make it run right. I know that is vague, PM David Hayes. He might be able to explain. What about 20B_3rd_Gen? you have one don't you? Remember there is no parts made to do this, like everyone said a million times, ITS NOT A SWAP. You will have to engineer it yourself and everything else. Where are you getting 20B's like it ain't **** anyways? hmmm? like he said, good luck check the 20B forum. but for now I have to

 

Not everyone has the funds to do everything all at once. That's the thing I can't stand about this forum. Everyone assumes you have to go all the way with the 20b project from the start. There is nothing wrong with him doing the bare minimal to get the project going. Example: Checkout that white 20b 1st gen that was completely built and ported but he's currently running it NA. We all know that he has bigger plans but, he's taking his time. Also the internal seals (specifically the side and corner seals) ususally are always well within spec and can be reused with out fail. Not every internal seal and spring needs to be replaced.

 

It works with a 20b. You just got to know how to set it up.

 

thank you t-von for actually bein nice about this whole thing and putting it in the right way. not all of us are millionaires that can do everything at once. obviously later down the road i'm going to change the turbos and i'm going to get way better and nicer things, but for now i just want to put the engine in the make it work. that's all i have money for...for now. it's either this or go all out with a 13b that has already had a rebuild, porting, and everything else done to it. for the calculations i've done so far they equal the same pretty much. i'm either going all out on a 13b and gettin everything possible (too long of a list to tell you), or i'm gettin a 20b and goin easy for now and just making it run until i got enough money. i just wanted some help and some realistic points of view with actual parts i would need in order to make the engine work in a fd with the bare minimum. obviously the radiator and intercooler and exhaust system's got to be replaced, along with everything that has to do with fuel, but what else? besides the custom welding stuff what else would i need? a friend of mine says that you need a new custom driveshaft in order to make it work, is THAT true? what about using my fd tranny on the engine? i never thought that would work but i heard someone sayin it. tell me facts and please help me out instead of just tellin me the whole time that i'm just bullshittin myself. again thanks t-von and nihilantic for your support and help.

 

i was thinkin a haltech for my standalone

 

1. Your Fd tranny will bolt right up no problem. Just re-use the 20b's rear counter weight and buy a lightend flywheel and an Fd upgraded clutch.

2. I simple Walbro fuel pump in place of the stock fuel pump will work just fine with the stock 20b twins. It's good for around 400 rwhp. That and a good FPR will be sufficient. Ebay $250.00

3. The 6 20b injectors are 550cc. Get them cleaned and flow tested for less than $100.00. Don't run to much boost with these injectors as I'm not sure at what hp they will max out at.

4. Even the cheap SS autochrome front mount IC's from ebay will work. There are guys using these on their 13b's with great results. 200-300.

5. A Koyo radiator has been proven to work with a 20b.

6. Exhaust is easy. You can use a midpipe and cat-back from an Fd. Just simply fab a down pipe to connect them. Exhaust shop! Hell you could even use the stock catalytic converter and stock cat back if you wanted.

7. Engine sub-frame. Search for what's best for you because you will have bumpsteer issues depending on how you mount the engine in the car. $600-1,500

8. Rebuilding the engine isn't hard. If the engine is low mileage and carbon is the reason it has no compression, you could easily get away with just opening the engine and cleaning everything. I would however replace the 3 piece apex seals. They get very weak with mileage and age. Go to rotaryaviation.com and purchase the 13b rebuilt video. That video can also work for the 20b.

There are other things that need to be addressed but you get the idea.

 

Yes there is T-Von. You know what you're talking about...a lot of others don't, and so they try and rationalize the impossible to themselves. Sure, you can do things in stages, but some illogical actions don't even count as stages. Explain to me how if you're short on money, you're saving money by tearing apart the block and NOT rebuilding it, only to have to tear it apart AGAIN shortly in the future to rebuild it? Or how about not encouraging people to take on projects they're not financially up to? Most guys asking such questions are 16 year olds who are struggling to pay their insurance payments, let alone gas. Then you wanna encourage them to start a project which they will never finish, and will cost $20K EASY? If you want to go simple and in stages, stick w/ a 13B. There's a LOT of established research for what you can do at what stage, for how much, lots of used parts for sale etc...not a territory that - on the whole - is still very unfamiliar to most ppl. At present time, there are only a handful of ppl who have running 20B RX-7s, and even a smaller number w/ running 20B FD's. So much is still being done on-the-fly and lots of learning as-we-go. I'm not calling ppl out, but John and Phil are doing 20Bs in stages, along the way, esp since most ppl don't haev $30K to throw down at once. But a) they know what they're doing, and b) look how long they've been doing it. This guy's talking about doing it for the meantime and RUNNING the car as such. I see a formula for disaster, which you're encouraging. All it's going to take is ONE thing to break, and he'll go through the roof.

How you think he'll feel when he's spent $15K, didn't rebuild the motor, and he finds that his motor is an early series motor, gets on it hard, e-shaft flexes or even snaps, he not only loses the e-shaft, but the entire block? Now his budgeted $10K left - which he's struggling w/ obviously - just got bumped up by 50%. Is that fair or nice to encourage?

I dunno...I don't think ppl should take on more than they can handle. Jimlab's prob one of the most capable ppl, and his V8 conversion STILL isn't finished. It's been what...4 years in the running? And on the other end of the spectrum, Pettit Racing - which I think may even have started the 20B swap - and has done a handful - spent MONTHS working on David Hayes' car, on a virtually unlimited budget, and ran into ALL SORTS of problems, despite international help and overnight express delivery of parts 24/7.

Again, just not smart.

~Ramy

 

I agree with Ramy..

I followed many 20B projects for at least 2 years. First hearing from 20B_3rdgen, Talked to Mike (Red-rx7, Acosta 20B), Seeing Petite's 20B, also PFS's 20B. I'm also prepared just in case first one blows so I bought another 20B longblock.

Point is, just like building 13b engines, you have unlimited possibilities of building 20B FD. It all depend how much money you want to spend, how much power, etc. I don't know your financial situation, time, and what you want. Best is to do your own research and not depend on someone to make that decision for you.

I personally think that it should be taken in steps. I realized this as I've talked to many many car enthusiasts. After certain point, you get used to the power, handling, and want something better. I'm in this stage now. I'm going with ported 2 rotor, BNR seq, then non-seq turbo, then to T76BB single. Meanwhile, I'm going to build my ported 3 rotor w/T76BB. Later maybe go bigger single and see what it does.. But going from not knowing a thing about 2 rotor and jumping into 3 rotor because you want one is like, ex-smoker who stopped smoking for 2 months and doing a marathon. Some might make it and most will not.

 

I understand not everyone has the money to do everything all @ once, that's not what I was saying, I want'd to know his reasoning for taken the motor apart just to port it, if he going to run the stock turbos. IMHO that is a waste of time, why not just wait until you can completely build the motor? Him wanting to pull the motor apart just to port it is completely different from someone COMPLETELY BUILDING AND PORTING THEIR MOTOR to run it NA.

 

I hate to say this but, someone who has 19 or so posts asking about 20B swap, thinking he can have 20B rebuilt, ported, mill 3mm for all 3 rotors for $800, then not replacing any other seals on the engine that's at LEAST 10 years old (even if he has the E series) makes me think he's should stick with 13B for awhile before going with 20B swap. Few engine builders have rebuilt 20B's and done it correctly. Also it requires special tool to remove the e-shaft.. And if his builder recommend not replacing the coolant seals, then I don't think his builder knows much about rotary engines.

Running stock 20B twins will make max 500-600HP... That's definitely do-able with 13B for fraction of 20b swap.

 

Try more like $100...

Most places charge $25 per injector.
I can get them done about $20 per.
Make sure the shop can handle side-feeds, as the primaries are all side-feeds.
This is a little more than your $100 quote.


The 4" thick cores are dropping under $200 now!
We're going to use one on ours.

FD?
I would look elsewhere.
Check out "racing" radiators and fit the biggest thing you can fit and afford up front.
The motors run very hot, and we can't stress enough how important to cool everything down.
At the same time, if you're going to track it, oil coolers need to be upgraded.
This stuff adds up quick!

I just wanted to readjust your prices on some of that stuff, cause I think they were a little off.

As for doing the motor in stages...
We're doing it, but a lot of it has to do with getting some solid numbers for data.
It's nice to look back on all the data and compares notes with everyone else.
I think most people appreciate that.

The bad part is that this kinda project is just so rare that it's hard to find pre-made parts.
If you can fab stuff, then it shouldn't be a problem, but I shake my head when people ask for pre-made intake manifolds, turbo exhaust manifolds, etc.
Expect to pay a premium if you need to made for you!


-Ted

 

That price quote was for both the fuel pump and FPR. Anyways thx for adjusting my other figures.

 

See that's the thing. We all started at that point of not knowing. I don't think the guy said he was going to get started right away with this porject. I joined this forum back in 2002 and didn't have a clue as to how I would go about my 20b swap. After doing all the research, I learned that certain things could be done at a fraction of the cost and still have a reliable set-up. Everyone keeps on talking about completely rebuilding the engine. Why waste money replacing perfectly reusable internal parts with new parts when they are measured to be well within spec? Anyone that has owned a rotary knows that the internal seals and oil controls rings are good for well over 200k. Why are these parts being replaced unnecessarily when the engine maybe only has 50k on it? Fact is when rotary's usually blow it's the shity 3 piece brittle apex seals that are the biggest problem not everything else.

My suggestion to the gentleman was that he could easily get away with doing a basic rebuild (depending on the engines condition) fairly cheap and not need to replace everything if he's going to start off slow. Getting the engine in the car and running is the biggest challenge. When that's done, then you can upgrade in stages just like we all do when it comes to modifying our 7's. In the end when it's all said and done, it comes down to the tuning of the engine.

 

Are you including coolant seals to be part of internal seals? Most engine builders I know, will definitely replace coolant seals with new ones. I wouldn't rebuild an engine if it has good compression and doesnt smoke (burning coolant or oil).

 

hey thanks again t-von and reted and thanks a bunch for the useful info. i might not have much posts on this site but that doesn't mean what i know about the car and what experience i have with the car. i've tooken my rx-7 to one mechanic in my lifetime and that taught me many things: it's not as hard as everyone puts it to work on an rx-7, the rx-7 "special" mechanics aren't as good as what you pay for when you yourself could do the job for WAY cheaper (unless you're taking your engine for a rebuild or porting which is a complete other story), and you yourself doin it and tryin it and makin it work not only saves you money and is fun but you learn a hell of a lot more by experience. what's the point of having a hotshot car and it bein all that if you haven't done a single piece of work on it and you've just taken money out of your pocket to give to someone else to do? i only recently started to put posts on this forum to talk to some people that share my own likes and hobbies and get other peoples' opinions on some things. top to bottom a 13b is easy to learn how to do everything to if you're up for the job and i've never had experience with 20bs so when the opportunity came up to see what i could do i wanted to get some other peoples' opinions on the issue by posting it up. that's the reason i only have about 20 posts now and i want to start this project. and for the pricing that all you other people are saying, in every way i look at it i don't see how you guys are spending that much. t-von and reted are the only ones that have actually given me realistic values. unless you guys are all rebuilding every little part on your engines (which i already knew was pointless cause the parts the engine comes with are good to start with; t-von's previous post even says that), putting huge single turbos on your engines, getting brand new trannys and axles and the best top of the line clutchs, and not doing ANY of the work yourself, i don't see AT ALL how it's physically possible to spend as much as you guys are spending. my previous estimate of 800 for porting the engine and getting new seals was read as a mistake. i meant just porting the engine would cost around 800 to 1000. the new seals, if once a mechanic takes apart my engine and sees that the engine needs new ones, will be put it, but if they're fine as what they are right now, i'm not going to spend money on a rebuild if i don't need to right now. later down the road (a year or so after everything's done) i'd be glad to get a full rebuild with the money i have, but right now if my car doesn't need a rebuild why on earth would i get one?

 

exactly like you said herblenny; why would you rebuild an engine if the compression numbers are about right and the car doesn't make noise or rattle in a weird way or smoke when you drive it?

 

You need to replace the stock FPR?


-Ted

 

LOL!

This is what you post earlier:
By most of us on this forum will consider when you take the engine apart, port it, put bigger seals, and put it ALL back together, its consider a rebuild. If some builder is willing to take 3 rotor engine apart, clean, spec, port, mill, put new 3mm seals, and assemble for 800 bucks and does all this correctly, you are getting a deal of lifetime! Without the new seals, still a deal of lifetime.

If you also want to know why some rebuild their 20B, do a search on the forum. Like I said, there are many possibilities and reasons for doing certain things. If you care about money and just want to slap it on so that you could say you have 20B, sure, do it! I on the other hand want to do it right first time around...

Like I said earlier, I hate to assume because someone has 20 or so posts but obviously when someone doesn't post how old they are and posts stuff like this, makes me wonder. Either case, good luck with your project!

Oh, by the way, I also don't take my car to some mechanic to do all the work.. Once I realized what I can do and what I can't do, thats when I rely on someone else... Or just mear what my time is worth.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Umm...did anyone remember that if you try running anywhere NEAR that power on the stock twins, you'll snap your e-shaft if you have a early series motor? No one's even asked him what series motor he's got. RX-7 From Heaven, what's the series motor do you have?

A) At what power levels? And B) Would you want to take that chance on a high power motor?

Sure it's fun and lots of experience, but if you go to a "special" mechanic who isn't as good as what you're paying for, that's bad on you. I pay TOP dollar for whoever works on my car, and that's because those guys have YEARS of experience. I'm not paying because the job is hard (well sometimes, if I simply don't have the time/patience for something lol), but mostly, it's because I don't have the luxury of spending 20 hours diagnosing and trying to repair a problem that one of these guys with more than a DECADE of experience w/ 3rd gens can diagnose by SOUND in 30 seconds. THAT'S what I'm paying for.

And lets be real for a minute. Most ppl do work on their own because they can't afford the high maintenance costs. Sure, it's fulfilling to do stuff on your own, but I leave that for minor not too-involved upgrades and simple repairs. I've seen w/ my own two eyes TONS of guys who were just trying to save a buck or two end up spending hours, and eventually lose a LOT more money (either in their own lost personal time that could have been used more wisely, or in trial and error that resulted in expensive mistakes) b/c there are tips and tricks to every trade. And the FD certainly has it's fair amount of tricks that only are learned after working on the car for years.

If you think the FD isn't complex, that's prob a sign that you just haven't had any serious problems to date. Thank God for that

No matter what ppl on this or other forums will tell you, there's nothing wrong or less about paying someone to do the work for you. I pay because I know my own limitations, and my learning isn't keeping pace w/ the car's demands I have no shame in saying I've taken my car to this or that shop to have complicated work done. Anyone who tells you there's shame in that is ashamed of being poor. And you bet that if I end up building a high hp 20B, something very very few ppl have done PERIOD (whether alone or at a shop alike), it's gonna be paid for, and done by professional so it's done once, and done RIGHT. I'll do what I can to offset the costs, but when I put that much time & effort into something, I wanna make sure it's done RIGHT. That's why there are people skilled in various professions - and there's nothing wrong or demeaning in utilizing their services.

~Ramy

PS: On the same token, someone who's turned every single wrench on his car but who also has had more downtime and problems on his car than anyone else... well lets just say they may need to take a hint. Something to think about...

 

Nicely put Ramy.. I can't believe I'm up this late on the forum..

I'll add this before going to bed..
When you already spend $15+k on mods, going to spend another $15K on 20B project (including $3.5k on dry sump kit), you want to do certain things right.. Hence I wouldn't want some idiot building my engine (every part of my engine will be spec'd, table cranked, and heat cycled for at least 10 hours). And don't want some used seals (maybe apex seals) distorying my ball bearing turbo. To me its better to get it done right, reducing those chances, and ultimately saving time and money.

Like Ramy said, we pay for certain things because we know our limitation and value of our time. I've pretty much taken everything out of my car one point or another. At this point, I know certain things I rather pay for someone to do it for me than me spending time doing it. Reason One, I've done it and did a shitty job. Two, took way too long and its cheaper for me to hire someone. Three, I don't enjoy it! And this enjoying part is the main reason for hiring someone to do the work for you! Its not because I'm not capable. I just don't enjoy it.

This is my hobby and not my job! If I could afford to pay someone and I've acturally tried it once and didn't like it... well, you get the point.

 

I was speaking of the expensive rotor seals sorry. Obviously any time the engine comes apart, you will need a new gasket kit which includes the coolant seals. I have no experience with the reusable viton coolant seals. I'm sure Ted will chime in on his experience with how reusable they actually are.