Why do 1st Gens run so long? (and 2nd and 3rd gens die?)
rotaryenginepete
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 85
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From: Navarre, FL / Spokane, WA
Originally Posted by GavinJuice
I'd have to agree with that statement, BUT not American cars.
rotaryenginepete
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Navarre, FL / Spokane, WA
Originally Posted by Manntis
If your former statement were true, they wouldn't have put 12A rotaries in every model of Series 3 (1984-1985) RX-7 except the GSL-SE.
rotaryenginepete
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Navarre, FL / Spokane, WA
Originally Posted by stilettoman
There seem to be a lot of opinions and theories about this subject, but one fact is indisputable, according to several people I know who make their living working on Mazda rotaries: The 84-85 GSL-SE is the longest life rotary ever built. Some will run 250,000 miles. In my opinion, the explanation is simple - this was the first engine Mazda built with direct oil injection into the chambers, and the last engine they built with the 3 mm apex seals. Previous engines were all carbureted, and the oil was fed into the carb. The 86 and later engines also have the direct oil injection, but they have the 2 mm apex seals, which are just not as durable. Several rebuiders I know will machine out the later rotors for the 3 mm seals if they want to build a bulletproof motor.
As for the 3rd gen cars, the specific output ( as in horsepower per cubic inch) is just too high for long life in a rotary, using current technology.
I was a big fan of the rotaties for 20 years, did rotary engine transplants, built ported engines, etc. But I think the time of the rotary has come and gone. The new technology piston engines with the variable valve timing, and even variable lift, and all the other optimization, combined with turbocharging, has allowed the piston engines IN MASS PRODUCED FORM to outperform the rotary and still get much better fuel mileage. If you don't recognize this you just aren't paying attention to the technology. It is very unlikely the rotary will ever close that gap.
As for the 3rd gen cars, the specific output ( as in horsepower per cubic inch) is just too high for long life in a rotary, using current technology.
I was a big fan of the rotaties for 20 years, did rotary engine transplants, built ported engines, etc. But I think the time of the rotary has come and gone. The new technology piston engines with the variable valve timing, and even variable lift, and all the other optimization, combined with turbocharging, has allowed the piston engines IN MASS PRODUCED FORM to outperform the rotary and still get much better fuel mileage. If you don't recognize this you just aren't paying attention to the technology. It is very unlikely the rotary will ever close that gap.
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,584
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From: Phoenix, AZ
84SE Daily Driver with 179k miles on it - still runs very strong but a bit of smoke on cold-start (MMO in the oil - don't do it...).
80LS Daily Driver (before the SE) with 212k miles on it - SCCA weekends, young driving habits, and blown out oil cooler hose were the causes for it's overheat and eventual slow death (from overheat to dead and non-running in 30 minutes/10 miles).
Take care of it, and it will take care of you,
80LS Daily Driver (before the SE) with 212k miles on it - SCCA weekends, young driving habits, and blown out oil cooler hose were the causes for it's overheat and eventual slow death (from overheat to dead and non-running in 30 minutes/10 miles).
Take care of it, and it will take care of you,
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 601
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From: Winnipeg MB
stilettoman...have you ever driven a sunfire or a cavaler? they are **** that have **** engines that redline too soon...and crap out too fast. the only companies that make engines that are comparable to rotaries are the italians and the germans... I would say a high revving small displacement V12 is simmilar in ethos to a rotary...not a big displacenemt american peice of scrap iron.
the rotary is more efficent and a more advanced design...go read about felix wankel and his first rotaries...
Long live the rotary
the rotary is more efficent and a more advanced design...go read about felix wankel and his first rotaries...
Long live the rotary
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25
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From: Vero Beach, FL
I agree
To think that a motor with pistons is far superior than a motor that is not put in every single car is closed minded, there has been quite a few motor companies that looked into making the cars they make Rotary powered, Mazda was the only one that could make it work and thru R&D have come a LOOOOOOOONG way from the original design. Im SURE if more people were to show interest<aka money> into making a reliable, emission friendly rotary it could happen. Untill then to hell with the Earth, I wanna blow flames!!!
add to cart
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Saskatoon, SK & Montreal, PQ
Originally Posted by Doubleohsmurf
overstock perhaps???
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: Monterey, California
[QUOTE Anyhow, I am wondering why do 1st Gens run so long -- especially in comparison to 2nd and 3rd gens, which seem to die early. Virtually every 3rd gen on ebay or AutoTrader has a new engine (unless it is a garage queen).
QUOTE]
Because First Gens rock!
QUOTE]
Because First Gens rock!
Last edited by rb26powered; Aug 4, 2004 at 07:28 PM.
Originally Posted by perfect_circle
plus the 2nd and 3rd hav boost, and most of them pop because of improper modifying.
Edit: in addition, the 1st gens usuallyt have older, and more mature owners.
Edit: in addition, the 1st gens usuallyt have older, and more mature owners.
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,584
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From: Phoenix, AZ
There are a lot more of us 'enthusiasts' over 30 than you'd think. These cars can't be relegated to the 'high-schooler' crowd anymore. True that a lot of us first owned these cars in highschool, but that was back in 1989 when I graduated, and I owned an 80LS for most of that time.
Maybe it's that the 1st Gen enthusiasts here take better care of their cars knowing that they're 20 years old and require a bit more TLC than some of the 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen cars. JMTC,
Maybe it's that the 1st Gen enthusiasts here take better care of their cars knowing that they're 20 years old and require a bit more TLC than some of the 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen cars. JMTC,
Yeah, shutup kid.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,686
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From: Columbus, OH
I guess I'm in that "highschool" crowd, bought mine just before I turned 16 and I'm 18 now and just got out of highschool. I coulda left my car stock and drove it forever, it was a really fun car. But I wanted more power, so I put a turbo on the 12a. And now about 1.5 years after I first went turbo I'm finally getting it right 
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,119
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From: Virginia
I'm not in high school so I must be a chump. 
Thanks. Some of us bought first gens new, and then bought second and third gens new as well. I'm not sure where you are seeing your first gen owners, but in my part of the country it is the opposite situation. The "kids" are all third gen owners (sometimes even scrimping on food to save money for their cars). There are not many first gen RX-7's around at all, and those who have them are generally older than the most of the other generation's owners.
Seems to me it is more often the younger kids doing the most modifications, and usually to third gen cars. All of the RX-7 models are relatively inexpensive, and none requires huge sums of cash to own or modify. The value for the money is one of their best features.
Thanks. Some of us bought first gens new, and then bought second and third gens new as well. I'm not sure where you are seeing your first gen owners, but in my part of the country it is the opposite situation. The "kids" are all third gen owners (sometimes even scrimping on food to save money for their cars). There are not many first gen RX-7's around at all, and those who have them are generally older than the most of the other generation's owners.Seems to me it is more often the younger kids doing the most modifications, and usually to third gen cars. All of the RX-7 models are relatively inexpensive, and none requires huge sums of cash to own or modify. The value for the money is one of their best features.
I am 20, married, in the Marine Corps, have been to war, and have a one year old son. I don't consider myself to be in high school, but I am sort of a chump. By the way i am in the 100 dollar club.
Adolf Hitler Verfechter
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 969
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From: Northern South Africa
My Rx7 has 102k miles on now.When i bought it,it had a streetport allready (so it was open at least once previously) with 95k miles.The people aroung here just dont treat the Rotaries proper.
As we dont have more than 5 Fc`s and Fd`s here,i cant say acurately which lasts longer.
I think Mazda should have installed a rev limter on the FB,to stop mind-less people from destroying all the nice Rotaries here.Its one of those things here,they dont last long.they get abused too much.
Sounds depressing?Nope,we have a few that are in mint condition as well.Last week there was a `79 for sale,with +- 43k miles on!!!! :-)
Karis
As we dont have more than 5 Fc`s and Fd`s here,i cant say acurately which lasts longer.
I think Mazda should have installed a rev limter on the FB,to stop mind-less people from destroying all the nice Rotaries here.Its one of those things here,they dont last long.they get abused too much.
Sounds depressing?Nope,we have a few that are in mint condition as well.Last week there was a `79 for sale,with +- 43k miles on!!!! :-)
Karis
Squeak, Suicide Girls
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 808
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From: NC
Its not really the high school kids either. I had two cars restored while in high school. I worked my *** off to pay for it. The only help I received was from my dad, and he provided labor or advice. And all the nice tools, damn former aircraft mechanic. Has more tools than any automotive mechanic. Using a scope to look for rust in the body was cool though.
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted by ZoomZoom
Modifying or Not the Turbos have alot more stress and heat on the internals. If its weak it runs forever. And all the first gen owners ive seen are in the 500 dollar club. i.e. highschool kids. or chumps with no money. I dont see how that equates to Older mature owners.
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: Burlington, Ontario
Am I cheap? I like to call it frugal. Chump? NO WAY!
I turned 16, and got my license, when Mazda released the 1984 GSL-SE. I was in love.
It took me 20 years before I got my 85 GSL-SE. Married, 3 kids, and my other car is a mini-van (soon to be Suburban). So I would put myself in the mature and budget-minded.
Roger
I turned 16, and got my license, when Mazda released the 1984 GSL-SE. I was in love.
It took me 20 years before I got my 85 GSL-SE. Married, 3 kids, and my other car is a mini-van (soon to be Suburban). So I would put myself in the mature and budget-minded.
Roger
Full Member
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From: Monterey, California
Originally Posted by ZoomZoom
Modifying or Not the Turbos have alot more stress and heat on the internals. If its weak it runs forever. And all the first gen owners ive seen are in the 500 dollar club. i.e. highschool kids. or chumps with no money. I dont see how that equates to Older mature owners.
Perfect example of stereotyping I love my 1st Gen!! My GSL SE is paid for, brand new, off the show room floor about 20 years ago yesterday and still in awesome shape. I think it's safe to say for the 1st Gen owners that their cars are paid for.
I make $125K a year
, so I don't think it's a poor man's car Oh and BTW, I'm 40
Last edited by rb26powered; Aug 5, 2004 at 03:13 PM.
DSM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,070
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From: Milton, FL
Originally Posted by rb26powered
Chumps with no money? Perfect example of stereotyping
I love my 1st Gen!! My GSL SE is paid for, brand new, off the show room floor about 20 years ago yesterday and still in awesome shape. I think it's safe to say for the 1st Gen owners that their cars are paid for.
I make $125K a year , so I don't think it's a poor man's car
Oh and BTW, I'm 40
Perfect example of stereotyping I love my 1st Gen!! My GSL SE is paid for, brand new, off the show room floor about 20 years ago yesterday and still in awesome shape. I think it's safe to say for the 1st Gen owners that their cars are paid for.
I make $125K a year
, so I don't think it's a poor man's car Oh and BTW, I'm 40
Lean Mean Speed Thingie
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,102
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From: Moscow, ID
well i can't afford to have a brand new car, but i could afford to have a nice late 90's model vehicle, but i choose to own multiple rx-7's instead, its keeps a big old grin on my face!
i thinik the reason younger kids like myself love these cars so much is that not only can we afford to own them, but we can afford to mod them. Really i think that 1st gen owners are lumped into two groups, the young kids, and the older ones who grew up loving the car either wanting or owning one. And now its really easy and cheap to own them again. Thats the way my dad is, he bought one of the showroom floor in 1980, and has loved them ever since, so when he got the chance to pick a good one up for cheap a few years ago he jumped on it. And that in turn got me hooked!
id have to say the reason 1st gens are so reliable, along with 2nd gen N/A's is obviously the lack of boost,
i thinik the reason younger kids like myself love these cars so much is that not only can we afford to own them, but we can afford to mod them. Really i think that 1st gen owners are lumped into two groups, the young kids, and the older ones who grew up loving the car either wanting or owning one. And now its really easy and cheap to own them again. Thats the way my dad is, he bought one of the showroom floor in 1980, and has loved them ever since, so when he got the chance to pick a good one up for cheap a few years ago he jumped on it. And that in turn got me hooked!
id have to say the reason 1st gens are so reliable, along with 2nd gen N/A's is obviously the lack of boost,