Sterling

I've seen Manntis lie several times here on this forum.
The man's a ****** liar, plain 'n simple.
"Books". What friggin books.
Liar.

Geeze-Louise! The guy sites a freakin book he read as the source of his knowledge for this little factoid, and you guys still question him?
Pick up a book!!!

Metallic_rock

TOUGHGUY

XLR8, I was not directing my statements about handling at you directly. I was merely conveying my personal experience with both a stock 1st gen and a Ford 5.0 converted one. I will be the first to say that my '82 GSL sticks like glue around corners but on the other hand, it never had enough power to light the tires up and put the car into a drift in said corner either. If we were solely talking skidpad figures and braking distances, common sense would tell you that a heavier car will not perform as well as a lighter one all else being equal. However, there are so many variables that one can never be absolutely sure of that. For normal everyday driving, one rarely drives at the absolute limit of the car so what's a few ticks on the skidpad worth? Granted several feet more in braking distance could be useful once in a while but good drivers almost never get in a situation where 100% of their vehicle's performance is required.

Where does that extra lateral acceleration and braking help? On the track of course where everybody should be if they are driving at ten tenths! Unfortunately for a stock RX7, that alone could not compensate for the difference in power between it and a converted car like Chrisman1969's.

But who here really drives a completely stock car? Some people throw more money at it than others but even if all you can afford is a bottle of 104+, you are still in search of higher than stock performance right? Personaly, I wouldn't have dreamed of dropping in the 5.0 and not touching the suspension and brakes. Chrisman knows this all too well and that's why he has Ground Control hardware taking care of business. I may not choose GC parts but I will surely be going with coil-overs and polyurethane bushings.

Some of you might be saying "yeah but we can put those pieces on a rotary RX7 and enjoy the better performance still!" While that may be true, the difference in chassis performance between a rotary RX7 and a V8 RX7 with upgraded suspension and brakes is less than that between the two same cars with stock suspensions. There eventualy comes a point where the suspension is so specialized for the application that there would be virtualy no performance gap at all between one chassis and the next. The choice of one engine over another however, would still create an overall performance gap between the two cars as a whole. This too, is just common sense.

I am sure I will enjoy my GSL after all is said and done but I also know that it will not make me enjoy my SE any less just because it has half the horsepower.

Toughguy

Mr_Rx7_Au

Sorry man I'm sticking to Rx stands for rotary expieremental..... quote my sources? Sources come from many people in car clubs, websites, the average joe blow, and I havn't hearde/seen anything to prove me otherwise. I'm not saying its def that or it isn't, but just going on what most people think, I tend to agree with them for what it stands for.

Cheers

'85 GSL 302

I have trouble believing that RX-7 stands for anything. The reason is because everyone says something different. If it stood for Rotory eXperiment, 1st, it would be an RE-7, second, why would the Japanese name a concept like that using english, third, why do I keep also hearing Rotory eXport, and 4th, why are there like 6 different reasons for "7". None of them make very much sense and half the people just ignor it. I'm sorry, it's been my experience that when something is real, then that's what's believed by everyone. When something is made up, there are usually several variations, as this case seems to be.

I've seen many Maxda programs on the RX-7 project, and I've never seen anything that says what RX-7 stands for. To be honest, this board is the first and only place I've heard it.

REVHED

I agree. The language argument doesn't make any sense though because all Japanese cars are named in English.

Why the hell does it have to mean anything anyway? They probably did throw the R in there because of the rotary but Rx just sounds cool.

faye x7

RX-7 means something, then what the hell does MX-6 stand for?

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Felix Miata's FAQ

Metallic_rock

Sounds like Rotary eXport 7 to me. I knew I read that somewhere!!!

Bayce

If it was an "experiment" for the RX7 - being a "Rotary Experiment" - wouldn't they have already got the "experiementing DONE in the earlier RX's? They to were rotarys, so I doubt if the "7" was still in the "experimental" stage. . . why doesnt someone email MAZDA. . . And, Rotary Export ? Doesnt Japan export everything they build ?

Defprun

My car weighs 2183lbs right now, to get the same "performance" as doing a 302 swap, all I have to do is port the ******* thing. If a V8 swap weighs 2600lbs...count me out. I like the feel of my light car, its so nimble, and i love that i can lose even more weight!

pratch

You know he was being sarcastic, right?

MOG I HERD FRUM A FREND THAT TEH RX-7 MEANS ROASTED XERXES 7 - IT SI OBVEUSLEE A PERSHIN ETHNIK SLUR!!!

Chrisman1969

"My car weighs 2183lbs right now, to get the same "performance" as doing a 302 swap, all I have to do is port the ******* thing."

Lets see.... 2600lbs / 318 rwhp = 8.167 Power to weight

we take 2183lbs / 8.167PWR = 266.99 rwhp

So you are saying you can make 267rwhp from porting a 12a?

I'm really not that familiar with the 12a's is that a pretty common horsepower number for that motor to put down?


Chris

Metallic_rock

I thought as much, but... you know how sometimes you don't get the inflection that you meant. It was worded kinda F$#@ up.

Metallic_rock

Robert from Rotary Shack has a 700+ hp 12a.... need I say more?

mar3

iTrader: (8)

Too high for a normal 302,,,where's the dyno graph as proof? All hearsay or guessing, otherwise...

Chrisman1969

I've went from a Holley 650 to a Demon 650 and the numbers went to 318rwhp. I will try and scan that dyno in and post it later.

Chrisman1969

I found a copy of the dyno I had faxed to my computer... sorry the quality is not as good.

mar3

iTrader: (8)

Doesn't matter...nice numbers....so you characterize your 302 as a normal 302, eh?

Chrisman1969

Its not stock, but its not crazy either. AFR 185 heads, X303cam, Roller rockers/lifters, victor Jr. Intake, 10:1 compression.
It has a nice lumpy idle, and I can spank most Corvettes and F Bodies that I come across......

Chris

Manntis

Good work, Chris

Metallic_rock

Yeah... I figure if we did the equivalent of all you did on your 302, a rotary could easily keep up.

We'll have to dyno IoTus's car when we are done... see what kind of HP it puts out. (TII swap- left the engine stock)

TOUGHGUY

Sorry M_rock, but merely porting a 12A or even a 13B for that matter will not get you 700whp. I realise you were just shooting that out as proof that a 12A is capable of some serious HP but I must ask at what cost? Surely you would be jesting to say that it is completely streetable and that it runs on pump gas !

Seriously though, if you wanna talk boost then you just need to peruse through the pages of the August 2003 issue of Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords to check out their 331 stroker pump out over 1000hp on a mere 13.4 psi! They did it with an Innovative GTB88 turbo pumping through a Race Demon 950 carb. Of course the rest of the motor was fully built but hey, we are talking about street level boost here!


Also look at how flat those HP and torque curves are on Chrisman's dyno sheets. I'd like to see a rotary pull that off!


Toughguy

Defprun

Okay, so for less money than swapping in a new engine, i can put a turbo on my 12a, or peripheral port my engine because i have access to a CNC and machine shop. Actually, Chris from CP racing is running a 12a turbo right now with a webber carb, not expensive by any means, and is running very similar numbers to your V8 swap and not only that his car weighs as much as mine does....

And BTW my car can be lightened further! I havent even taken out the entire interior yet.

'85 GSL 302

I will say that a 12a can run at 300+ hp for the money Chris has in his swap. But you're also going to have to include a new driveshaft, transmission, and freshly rebuilt motor. Not to mention that 320hp from a 302 is on the very light side. Those motors make 400whp without breaking a sweat. A 12a is hard pressed to run 300rwhp. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a fine balancing act, and you are constantly running that motor near the edge. I would really like to see a 300+rwhp 12a motor with more than 80,000 miles on it.

As for weigh you are correct that your car will always be lighter. It will also always have less torque, run hotter, and require more maintanence. Not to mention a point NEVER brough up on this board. Ever heel-toe'd a 302? You have any idea what kind of drag 8 pistons put on a motor? Something no one mentions is engine braking. I see 50 posts a day asking how to fix up Mazda brakes, or how the extra weight is this big problem. With wide tires, and using engine braking, a V8 should be able to make up for a weak brake system.

Bottom line it's all based on personal preference. I prefer to run mid 13's with a full interior on a nearly stock 302 while cutting 1.93 60's on 195/60/14 all season tires. I also prefer having an RX-7 that's just as much fun leaving the corner as it is entering it. The way I see it there are 3 sides.

1. People who make sacrifices to have a high performance rotory. IE no interior, agressive ports, dangerous boost levels, extreamly low gas milage, etc.

2. People who refues to make the sacrifices and only enjoy their RX-7's the 1/10th of the time they are turning while spending hours on message boards telling others how "special" their cars are.

3. People that want a car that handles, accelerates, gets good milage, is cheap to maintain, and is very relyable.

You think weight is a huge disadvatage? How much does a Z-06 weigh? What about Ferarri's? Labo's? Fact is most "super cars" tip the scales compaired to RX-7's. Hell, even most "race cars" are limited to weights in the neighborhood of 2400lbs.


I think I'm out of thoughts...