Angelhlopez12

iTrader: (1)

lmao! but we need to start competing against them. oviously they are Gods on Rotary's but we need to give them a good run! show that we americans are not a laughing stock! no offense to any of them of course. the people i hang out are puerto ricans that have 20-30 years of Rotary haha

but yeah we need to work together to figure it out, not fight each other. we will not get anywhere if we keep doing this. lets help each other out and achieve.

sinCITYseven

Same here bro. Amazed every time. I've seen some crazy numbers and times from coincidentally, Puerto rican buddies pull off weither rx3s rx7s ...lucky to have had them as neighbors.

wankel=awesome

Well, having built and SOLD properly tuned alternatives to the RB, I can tell you it for sure can be done. But its knowledge and skill that comes at a price.


I marketed my 450 CFM 4bbl for about 4 months, and was a about a 700$ carb.

I started with an HP casting, so I didnt have junk cast metering blocks like the RB, with exchangeable emulsions/idle feed/pvc, etc. Mine were 4150, so they had dual metering blocks. The baseplate was billet, and all were converted to manual chokes and a custom cable that allowed one to hook it up the the factory thermochoke.

I also used high quality float bowls, with foam anti-airation baffles and jet extensions on either side. The needle and seats were spring loaded, and teflon tipped, with burnished seats.

I tuned mine to use power valves, put blow-out protection in the baseplates. This resulted in better fuel economy and less of the off accel flooding that can happen with huge jets and a big acc pump.

I sold them with mech secondaries, or vacuum depending on the buyer.

I used 60* vent tubes that were nigh impossible to flood over the barrels of the carb in any g-load situation. I custom tuned the emulsions, jet shot restrictions, idle feed, and both high and low speed air bleeds to blend *flawlessly* unlike the stupid large and lumpy RB design of just boring them out, and jetting small to compensate.

The acc pump itself had a custom high end pump arm adjustment like AED road race carbs, to maintain perfection on the diaphragm resistance. I tuned the acc pump with the proper cams, and put tamper proof loctite on the screws so nobody could easily dick with them without removing the carb, to deter cam adjustments.

My carbs had 4 corner idle, not the shitty one-side idle that a standard 4160 is sold with.

My carbs asking price: 700$
Rb's asking price: 638+shipping.

Listen to me when I tell you you are a fool to believe you will modify that carb in the way I just described for less than the cost of my own, or even less than the RB.

My carbs are dyno tuned and application specific. Btw, on the dyno my 450 cfm carbs are actually a little bigger than id like for a stock port 12a, when were talking about fuel signal down low and part throttle driving, so GL with 600 cfms of pure stupidity. I only used 450 cfm bodies to be numerically competitive to RB's advertised "465" cfm.

Which as I said, is a bit big for a stock port. But I wouldnt have sold any unless it was numbers happy and comparable.


Now who was saying something about somebody not knowing how to build one? Only puerto ricans and aussies can figure it out? No, they had $$ and did it RIGHT. There is no magic race/ethnicity factor at all.

mustanghammer

iTrader: (3)

Hmmmmmm $700 Holley or a $500 Weber IDA with adjustable everything including venturi size and no fuel slosh issues. Dunno about you but there is way too many advantages and knowledge with respect to a weber to ever consider a holley.

Holleys have their place....on my 302 V8.

wankel=awesome

How about part throttle? Choke for cold starts? Fuel economy? Availability of parts? Cheap rebuild kits? Easy to understand modular design?

Im not saying for racing the weber isnt better, but this is not a strictly racing world, nor was I offering to sell any of my parts to the likes of the children in this thread.

I was just showing the REAL cost and amount of work that goes into a holley, seeing as I already suggested he run a different kind of carb altogether lmao

mustanghammer

iTrader: (3)

Agreed, but I am a racer and I don't care about most of that stuff. Also, rebuild kits and parts for a weber are not that bad and most of the adjustments can be made without taking a weber completely appart like you do with a holley.

Don't get me wrong, I like them both and respect the work that people do to make things work. But I also understand the cost of being a trail blazer.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the IDA has is a really good simple modular design, part throttle is up to the tuner, but its totally possible. like the holley most people have some strange notions about what parts do what in the weber, but never bother to test their own car.

parts are available, but not like holley

and for real costs, the IDA is $500, but by the time you get it jetted to run right you'd be looking at more like $900-$1000.

unlike the Holley though it runs in corners! and i'm getting near nikki drivability on a Peripheral port, so they work great. no choke, but in CA i don't need one

gerald m

couldn't agree with you more ,.. However that said there are no proper jet settings ( everyone drives different for different reasons )for non application carbs . The best thing you can do is start with something in the middle of the road and go up or down from there ,.. the jets are not the only thing you will need to deal with , the whole function of the stock carb will need to be played with . you will probably find that the idle jets will be doing most of the work when at highway speeds so if you want reasonable gas mileage you will need to keep this in mind .the big boys will be working mostly on acceleration .. it will work but not as well as some . trial and error and lots of it . there are lots of guys that could help you with your project weather they will or not is another thing . Speaking for myself I have had tons of help from some very top notch guys on this forum . Some have spent many years learning the in's and out;s of the rotary and are very reluctant to change there ways of thinking or share what they know ,,. After all the BS has cleared I'm sure there will be one or two of the wise ones that might give you a tip or two . I have never used a 465 so I don't have any tried and true suggestions JMO Gerald

wankel=awesome

Well, some people simply want a 4bbl. Like myself, I just wanted a 4bbl lol. Ill take whatever one works the best, and offers actual aftermarket tuning options.


Atm im building a multiport injected GSLSE 6 port with a 4 bbl throttle body. Why? Because I want 4 barrels!

If I wanted 2, I would build a weber set up lol.


Thats still outside the origin of the thread, he wanted "the correct jet size" and i was simply educating him that there is no such thing with this type of carb.

gerald m

Thats still outside the origin of the thread, he wanted "the correct jet size" and i was simply educating him that there is no such thing with this type of carb.[/QUOTE]

Not pointing fingers I couldn't agree with you more as I stated above . As far as the oval thing there are different models that have there float slung from center or from either side but I don't believe that one is . There are better choices of makes and models but he wants this one so why not help him make it work . I remember when I started my bike thread many people sent me PM's telling me it would NEVER work your CRAZY ( well that last part might be true ), well it whomped the hell out of every thing that I raced 30,000. Harley's never had a chance with all their electronic BS , fuel injection , quick shift solenoids , the list goes on and on , With the Dragon it's point it in the direction you want to go crack the throttle open wide and hang on and enjoy . Thanks to a handful of forum members that could read my dream and help make it come true without mentioning anyone they all know who they are .

wankel=awesome

Yea I dig the bike.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i completely agree. the correct jet size depends on a HUGE number of different factors.

for instance.

most importantly with these jetting charts we have no idea how well the car ran or what AFR they were running. or if it was fast or if it blew up, or what.

the engines air flow; 12A? 13B? worn out vs new? stock port vs not stock?
the exhaust and intake make a HUGE difference.

fuel pressure matters.

fuel quality matters, we have E10 here, and with the same jetting E0 will be a bit richer.

altitude makes a difference.

etc etc

gerald m

yea well thanks but this is not about me I still have lots of fuel issues that need dealing with but I am using a Holley I don't care if I need to mount the bugger upside down to make it work proper , I am willing to spend the time and effort to make things the way I want without going to the store every day ( Only every second day now ) ...

Angelhlopez12

iTrader: (1)

AMEN!!!!!!!!! i love the way this guy thinks! but yeah all i was asking is for jet sizes first. i know there's more into it, i know that i have to modify the carb to my need. so why go the extra mile to tell me that Holley dont work very well. they do work, obviously Wankel=Awesome didn't enjoy modifying it at all. i dont care how much i need to spend to get it right. i want to use that carb because i think its the right size carb for my car (stock port 12a) . i dont need someone to tell me that there is a lot of money involved when i already know, WE'RE IN THE ROTARY LIFE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. thats all this life is, is MONEYPITS. you make pretty much say " F you guys, im going fuel injection *drops the mic and walks like a badass*

sinCITYseven

Try a #54 size jet.

BUMBLEBEE7

iTrader: (1)

I can tell you exactly what to do to run a 600 on a 12A and 13B or 650 dbbl pumper on a 13B or 12A. It will cost you less than $50 and there is no way you should pay $700!

Angelhlopez12

iTrader: (1)

thank you

BUMBLEBEE7

iTrader: (1)

1. Buy the jetting kit for the secondaries (will enable you to jet the secondaries)
2. Replace the power valve with the plug
3. 67/68 Primaries 69 Secondaries
4. Timing to your preference a must (set for high rpm retard a bit)

wankel=awesome

Why replace the power valve with a plug? Do you know what that thing is for? Its enrichment.... It allows you to run a smaller, more efficient jet size for part throttle, and without sacrificing full throttle power from a small jet.


And yea, do what that guy does and you will have a carb that:

1) Sputters in corners (Junk standard Holley fuel bowls and needle and seats!)

2)Floods easily (30cc Acc pump that you cant change the restrictions for the jet shot size! (Cast metering blocks, total lack of pump nozzle/cam tuning )

3)Terrible gas mileage (Horrible bandaid over bullethole jetting and lack of a power valve! )

4)Typical, junk holley needle and seats that leave you sit a couple times a month! (You'll find out about this one )

5)Pig rich idle! (Junk Non HP main body, Cast metering blocks)

6)Uneven AFR's from R1 to R2 (Good for the engine? Yea? No, this is from the **** fuel level control from the factory side hung, or even center hung bowls without heavy modification )

7)Crappy throttle response! (Huge jet, no power valve)

8)Flooding on hard braking! (Factory 90* vent tubes)

9)Cast metering blocks, that will on average start to warp in 3-4 years of regular use! (Standard holley jet blocks, plates)

10)Pressed in air bleeds! (Junk non hp main body )

11)Horrible fuel curve! (Lean down low, pig rich up top; No emulsions tuning)

12)Shitty cold weather starts! (Cast metering blocks )

13)Less power than the stock nikki! (Jetting so large so that fuel loosely covers where the engine needs it in some parts of the curve, but too large in others.)

14)High idle! (You'll have to crack the primary blades open a good bit to get the engine to properly transition from the idle circuit to the cruise circuit without low speed air bleed tuning. Junk as delivered standard Holley main body again!)

15)Leaky Throttle shafts! (Standard cast Holley throttle plates, they leak a good bit of vacuum seeing as they really dont seal up at all. The Nylon runners in them also tend to rip and tear over time, and it allows the shafts to oval out the plate, making the carb pretty much junk in 3-4 years! Fun, right!?

16)No secondary jetting AT ALL! (That ricer above me assumes you can swap jets in a METERING PLATE! They are DEFAULT 69 JET SIZE. They do not accept exchangeable jets!)

17)....Get it yet? No? Gonna re-invent the wheel anyways? Well open that checkbook up kid, and have a nice life. I'm through trying to help you, or any of the Ricer idiots that have taken over this forum as of late.

Go ahead, take the advice you want to hear! Its nothing thousands of dollars wont fix

wankel=awesome

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-26-36

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-34-13/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-36-181

^ Already in over 100$, and you havent even addressed the problems that these carbs have.

Angelhlopez12

iTrader: (1)

there is a difference between helpful and being a total dick. hmmm, lets see which one you are?? oh that's it, a DICK. I mention this to my Puerto Rican buddies (20-30 years of experience in Rotary's) and they laughed and said " This guy is a complete Idiot" and there was more laughing. They even said Go with a Holley. "you'll be better off with a Holley since There is parts for them everywhere, They're more Reliable, and anyone can work on them, you can modify them to you're specifications, way Easier to tune and work with and we prefer Holley over any carb out there." why do I trust them? Cause they live and breath Rotary and know what's good for it. call us Ricers as much as we want but we're trying what we can. No need to bash anybody. Do you know why the Honda community has a bad rep? because people like you make the smaller people think that they can't do anything right causing ricers to be made. no of us really care about how much money we have to spend to get it right. as long as it getting done. So please do me a favor and leave my Thread, You're services are no longer needed in this thread.

wankel=awesome

k. let us know how your product does.

And I seriously doubt that your "experienced puerto rican friends" even understand any of the components I just mentioned, as I know you dont either.

Angelhlopez12

iTrader: (1)

is what I want, not what you want.

Angelhlopez12

iTrader: (1)

I'm pretty sure neither of us give a **** on what you have to say.

MazdaMike02

iTrader: (4)

Guys come on. Opinions are like ******** everyone has one. Keep it to yourselves.

Wankel=awesome is a pretty knowledgeable guy though he knows what hes talking about with Holleys. Im following his advice with mine. Mine is a 100 dollar rebuilt 600 cfm though. 100 bucks was low enough for me to gamble on it. I read the Holley book front to back, and I have everything required to tune mine..and if it doesnt work out oh well, ill buy an Edelbrock, RB carb or build my own.