Rally cars
 

Okay... so i've been searching around this forum a bit and every time i search "rally" it comes up with all the different meets and whatnot.

I am currrently trying to figure out a plan on how, over the next couple years, to transorm my FB into a rally car. Have any of you ever done a project like this? If so, any links/info would be much appreciated.

Right now I am waiting on getting the pipe to start fabbing my roll cage and strut tower braces. Also looking for better seats and four point harnesses.

What i really need help finding info for is the suspension for rally cars. I know i don't want to lower my ride height anymore, but i need to stiffen it up and at the same time not lower it any, perhaps even lifting it a few inches.

Anyway... as soon as this project is underway I will be uploading pics for all of your enjoyment, or flaming... whichever.

~Sup

Sorry I can't help you with this one, but I have to ask......where did you find that avatar?!? She's HOT!!!! :)

Hahahahah!!!!

All you have to do is search, and search, and search, and browse, and search some more, and browse some more. And finally say "Damn... she's hot... ima go crop that image a bit."

And goddamnit... its hard to find info on building rally cars.

~Sup

Stiffen the chassis up a shit-ass load. For safety and performance, but mostly safety. You can do some google searches and find motherloads of pictures of rally cages.

I haven't built an FB rally car, but I'd like to one day. My understanding is that the stock suspension, albeit it a fairly new one, does a mighty-fine job on a rally course. Probably not the case in an Unlimited or highly-prepped class, but you probably shouldn't be starting out in one of those classes, anyway.

One thing to keep in mind with Rally cars is that they beat the living shit out of everything. A buddy of mine who rallies a Monza said the suspension has been a constant battle... stiffen one piece up, break another. Stiffen it up, break another piece. Fix and stiffen it and now one of your previously stiffened pieces breaks. With that in mind, I think keeping the car as close to stock as possible is a good idea, simply for the relative ease of finding parts.

For raising ride height on the front, get yourself some 1/4" or 1/2" aluminum and make yourself some custom strut spacers. Shouldn't take long if you've got a drill press and a large holesaw. The rear is a little trickier, but you can do basically the same thing on the shock mount and make a spring spacer.

Have you done some searching in the Racing forum? I know I've seen threads in there in one of the last few bursts where I've spent a few days reading around here. I'm guessing the last time I did that was August or so, if that'll help you narrow your search.

Good luck! And let me know if you need used parts! ;)

I have been involved with rallying within the SCCA. There is also another choice now with NASA.

One of the greatest things about rallying is that dirt roads equalize allot of things. Just like in all other forms of motorsports - Money greatly increases your chances - but you can have tremendous fun and competitiveness without the absolute best of everything.

To start with the build up you need to remember that this vehicle must be street legal. You must have a tag and insurance. All the blinkers, horn, lights and such must work. Second thing you need to start the build up is a rule book. You would be building for the Group 5 class if it is SCCA. NASA has the same class just a different name. Group 5 is a open class for 2 wheel drive cars. Pretty much anything goes.

You will not need to raise the car at all. You will need some good shocks and some good springs. We rallied for years in a FB with stock rear springs and coil over up front. We did not have camber plates. You will want to stay with rubber bushing in all joints of the rear suspension. Solid bushings break things back there. Also, the rear end will bind with solid. We never changed from the Watts linkage.

Front suspension was done with a 1" to 1.5" longer front control arm. We would cut it a few inches from the inner pivot and add material to make it longer. We also use some steel plate along the bottom of the control arm to completely box it in. You will need to ask around for front spring rate starting points.

The chassis should be fully seam welded. You should also seam weld anything else you can like the cross member.
The cage must be built within the rule. You really need a rule book before you start building your cage. You want to build the best cage you can. Don't skimp on a cage. If you are balancing funds - spend the extra on the cage and skimp somewhere else.

In my opinion the stock gas tank is perfect. I only saw problems with adding a fuel cell. you will want a skid plate back there to protect it. You will also want one under the front sump.

Stock wheels work just fine with rally tires. You may want to convert to GSL-SE suspension to get the better bolt pattern. 13" rally tire are getting harder to find. You will also need a rally computer.

I guess that will get you going. You need to get a rule book, go and work or spectator a few rallies and start building.
Also remember, You could get some shocks, springs, a cage, rally tires, computer, seat belts and fab a few skid plates and go rally the car. Even without going all out frame shell up build you will have a blast. Like I said, dirt roads help equalize horse power. With a rear wheel drive you are not going to put more than 250 HP or so to the ground anyways. It is just a matter of time before you roll the car on its roof if you are going fast, so go have fun and go all out building your second car.

Some link for you.

http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cg...um/dcboard.cgi

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum....0d46779c05a11a

http://www.nasarallysport.com/

http://www.scca.com/Rally/Rally.asp?IdS=00790A-278F3D0&x=040|010&~=

search for 4x4 on this forums...iv started a thread on how to make a fb a 4 wheel drive mean machine (it has ben done before)

Why would I want to build the FB into the 4 wheel drive?

I know it sounds like it would be fun, and i have thought about it. But if I am going to go 4x4 its going to be an impreza or something, not an FB. And... rear wheel drives are more fun.

Thank you for the info. I had plans to go to the Collorado Cog Rally, but i don't think i will be able to get the time off from work. Hopefully I will make it to one or two sometime in the near future if i can find enough info on them.

And the rule books are now downloaded, i had allready planned out my roll cage, will now see if it fits within the rules. Was allready going to order the 4 point harnesses on monday, and i allready have a parts car so when i wreck this one i can swap (some) parts.

Now the only decision to be made is if i should use the FB with the moon roof, or the FB with the solid roof.

~Sup

If it's legal, use the moon roof and weld it shut (or cut the roof off the other and weld it on). Little bit more weight, but also a little stiffer.

See... now the problem with that is i need a damn rule book. And every one (all 12 of them) that i've downloaded so far have been so goddamned corrupted that they wouldn't read.

but thanks for the suggestion, i'll look into it if I can ever find myself a copy of the rule book.

~Sup

http://rx7rally.tripod.com/sus.html
http://www.angelfire.com/oh5/sccafue...brallyrx7.html
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...highlight=1980
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=174070
:)

Glad to hear some one else has the right idea about running a rally car.
I am in the last stages of my third gen1 rally car. No you can not have a moon roof hope you used seamless pipe on your cage with at least quarter inch feet 6 inches square. How the hell will you stop the car on 13" tires and rims where will the brakes go?

uh... what?

1/4 inch feet 6 inches squared? what exactly is that supposed to mean?

and as for brakes... i hadn't gone that far into the planning phase yet to even consider stopping power.

~Sup

I work with the Subaru Canada rally team and one of our drivers used to rally a 1st gen; in fact he became north american champ in it. Tom McGeer. Also, Andrew Havas rallies a road-stripe orange 1st gen in SCCA, or at lease he used to.

To make any car into a reasonable rally car you need at a bare minnimum:
1) A really good cage that will sigficantly strengthen the chassis
2) Good rally suspension such as DMS, Reiger, Leda etc. DMS is probably the best value but I don't know if they make a set-up specifically for Mazdas. Adapting a similar configuration may be your best bet.
3) Rally Tires
4) See above
5) See number 4
6) A rally computer; the terratrip 303 is a good value and quite respectable
7) sump-gaurds/ horror flaps and other underbody armour
With these items you'll have a well prepared car for performance rally. But you should consider doing some TSD rallies first to get the feel for it.

It may or may not be necessary to raise the car, it depends on the roughness of the rally. All rally-specific suspensions have adjustable ride height so this is something of a non-issue.

Seam welding is definatley a good thing but may not be practical and is not completely necessary.

Also, you need to realize that rally is BRUTAL on the cars and unless you're prepared to shell out big time for spares..... Well... you know.

-Kwe

Well, i allready have a few spare cars laying around. Other FB's i've picked up for super cheap. And allready have a few lines on rally tires for not too expensive.

This winter is going to be way busy getting this shit built up and ready to go...

Thanks for all the info guys.

~Sup

The "1/4 inch 6 inch square" gibberish, I'm assuming, is the pads that you weld in under the "feet" of the cage. Quite frankly, 1/4" is a little thick, and 6" square is a little small. The strength difference between 3/16" and 1/4" isn't enough to outweigh the...well...weight. Plus, it will cost more (not much, but it will cost more). This is another thing that you'll need to check the rules on, as SCCA Club Racing has a max # of square inches.

Also, with the RX-7, you can gain considerable stiffness with a little ingenuity and thinking. If you can't figure it out by staring at a bare interior, PM me and I'll send you some pics. ;)

EDIT: Added too many letters.

Well, hopefully tomorow i will have all of the rule books that i need printed out and can start planning the roll cage.

christaylor: i have allready figured out a few ways to give the 7 some good stiffness, just trying to figure out how to tie all of the different ideas together into one, cohesive design. with integral seat mounts and all.

I'll have to start taking pics of this project here soon.

~Sup

Race setups are hard. Good luck...be sure to get pics.

I still want to know where I can find more photos of your avatar Supper! Don't hold out on me now!!! :)

I've volunteered at 100 Acre Woods ClubRally down in Missouri and Lake Superior ProRally in MI and had a blast. I've got pictures of the rally 7's and video of a couple of them off the start lines and zooming by in the woods too.

Too bad you're not closer to St. Louis, MO. Izzy's Custom Cages in St. Louis custom fits some sweet cages for 7's.

Something important that you need that everyone else has left off the list.....a competant co-driver. G'luck and I can't wait to see some pics of your project!

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Another good link is http://www.rallyclassified.com/

If you are really that despirate i guess i could dig around my hard disk and see if I can't find the picture sets of her that I have.

That might be true, but nothing nicer then one built by with your own two hands.

And thanks for the link.

The new problem i face is the asshole i bought this thing from didn't get the title notorized before handing it over, so now the state is dicking me around getting the title and everything for it. And, the way I understand the rules, you can't rally it unless it is liscenced.

~Sup

Man I feel ya. I've had to mess around with title issues on two seperate vehicles before. One on a pickup that the guy never swapped the title into his name and actually tried to erase something on it which voided it. I had to track down the owner that owned it before him to get everything straightened out and man was that owner peeved since he could have been held liable if anything had happened!

Other was on my current 7. Since it had an out of state title and the state I was in has safety inspections, I had to get it inspected before the title could be switched only thing was that the car's motor wasn't running when I got it and you only have like 30 days after purchase to swap the title before this particular state I was in starts charging late fees. In this particular state there was an exception on their title transfer application and basically came down to if the car was over 10 years old it was mileage exempt (other thing I could do was have mileage verified without have safety inspection and then get title transferred) and when I pointed that out they got irrate at me and told me I had to still have it checked out because it was an out of state car! Stupid DMV employees, grrrr.

Anyway, way off topic. Rally is "Real Cars, Real Roads, Real Fast" They must be street legal, licensed and insured.

Street legal is contradictory. Or else what rules is that a different class? They cannot be street legal with the extra lights and other modifications.

Hmm, extra lights is just fine on the street. Otherwise, why don't the trucks with "roll bars" that have the lights on top get pulled over then? Those extra lights you see on the rally cars are generally only on them during the night stages and are then only turned on during the special stages, not transit stages (where they are mixing with normal traffic).

As far as other modifications, please explain.

As the SCCA rule book reads, you are even required to have cats on it, dammit. Which really sucks, because i live in an emissions free state therefore have no need of cats, but because it came as "standard equipment" i am required to have on on there. They didn't say if it was checked to see if it was gutted, or if it needed to meet spec. Just that it had to be on there and the car has to be liscenced.

~Sup

this is what it looked like when i first got it.
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=76286
and this is why it was chosen for the rally car project.

No.

You need SUSPENSION TRAVEL.

I don't have much time right now, need to go to bed so I can get to work early enough to make meaningful progress on my engine. But spacers on top of the strut don't give you suspension travel, they just give you ride height.

I played this game with hockey pucks shimming the front springs up. This gave me suspension travel. However the wimpy 100lb springs are just plain too weak, and it still bottomed out a lot, and after a thousand miles or so the springs collapsed from hypercompressing (the barrel shape was compressing into the rest of the spring).

I now have 200 pound-inch, 12" long springs. i now have suspension travel, and enough spring rate to keep from bottoming. That's the theory, anyway, since I bottom out STILL even on the street. What would be nicer would be some 250 or even 275 pound 10" springs, or better yet 250 or 275 pound 12" or 14" springs and relocating the lower perch on the strut tube. Longer springs are better because a given amount of suspension motion translates into less motion at a given point on the spring. Ride height should be set by having zero spring preload when topped out.

One rule of thumb I've read often is that the front spring rate should be the weight of the car divided by the amount of suspension travel in the front. So that if you land on one corner the suspension can support the weight of the car without bottoming. If your car weighs 2700lb total (including cage, driver, codriver) and you have 6" of suspension travel, that means about 450lb-in, which is a wee bit much. :) Most RX-7 guys run in the 200-300 pound range.

Next you need damping. Rally cars like to have not so much compression damping, to absorb bumps, and plenty of rebound damping, to properly control those stiff springs.

I don't compete in stage rally, but local roads are close enough, and I regularly rallycross. Given that, and I don't feel like spending $4000 on rally struts, I noted that the OEM wet struts are rich in rebound damping and light on compression damping. I drained the fluid, filled with ATF, and it works WONDERFULLY. However it's still weak OEM type junk and it's still fragile, so for stage rally, actual rally struts are a good idea.

Oh, and go to www.specialstage.com and search for "RX7" and "RX-7" in the Car Construction forum. (Also Maz-dog) Make sure you check "Also search archives" - after a few months of inactivity, posts are automatically archived and closed to replies, but there's still good info there.

For inspiration, visit www.havspeed.com and see how it's really done. :D

Anyway, bedtime.

Ah, I see you've already been to SpecialStage, and met Mr. VanLandingham. :)

He's a lot like me - we both seem to hate everything except some things which we fail to hate very much so we champion them like they're the best things in the world. (Even though it's not that they're the BEST it's that they minimize being crappy)

Come to think of it, I've seen that post, and replied to it...

well, the username over there is the same as over here.

more pics:

http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2004...Supplicate.jpg
http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs5/i/2004...Supplicate.jpg

I wonder why then, that so many rally FBs are still racing?

Anyway, it may not matter much longer. SCCA is dropping ProRally and ClubRally from their organization. Hopefully someone else will pick it up. Just do a search on SCCA for their press release. Sad, sad news for the rally enthusiasts out there. If we weren't such a litigation happy nation, this probably wouldn't be an issue (they're citing insurance costs).

It's already been picked up. Part of the dropping process is handing everything over to Rally America, which had been working with the SCCA in the past with respect to timing and other things.

The SCCA as an entity hated stage rally, and since they didn't care much for it, the sport has been foundering. SCCA dropping stage rally is probably the BEST thing that could happen for Rallying in the US.

In any event, NASA will still hold events, and Canada has a quite wonderful series with much more support. (Why? Because their stage rally was dropped and a new organization that was rally-based (CARS) was formed to fill the void)

Also, there's always Rallycross, which is cheaper and (IMO) more fun because you can run, *and* spectate, and did I mention that it's cheaper? (No it's not stage rally, but stage rally entrance fees are 10-20 times the cost of rallycross fees. Plus there's lots more driving involved)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-.../df06small.jpg

edit: resized photo

Thanks for the perspective Peejay. I forgot to mention that I had read that Rally America was looking into picking it up. I didn't know that in fact they already were in the process. Yes, it could be a much better thing that someone else run it. Canada's scene is nothing short of phenominal plus they have tarmac rallies up there too! Maybe this change will eventually convince the WRC people to move a race into the US too since the closest is now Mexico.

Rallycross is cheaper but in my opinion is not comparable to actual stage rallying. Sure, you're racing around a set course on dirt just like stage rallying (except without trees jumping out in the middle of the course ;) ) but it is much closer to regular autocross. As a note, I do enjoy rallycrosses so please don't mistake what I am saying.

WOW! I had this idea first! I gave up when I saw the costs involved and my lack of funds.

I may be picking up a cheap FB shortly and will renew the idea. Do you have MSN or something? lets talk rally lol

http://www.wrc.no/images/orginal/2759.jpg

Here is one of the factory 1st gen rallycars being raced in Hillclimbing in Norway! We have two of them!

where? I don't see anything :P

Here are four examples of rally FBs from the 2k2 and 2k4 100 Acre Woods ClubRally.

those are some nice cars!

Definatly good examples of cheap fun rally cars.

Thanks for the photos. Those are looking damn good. Gave me a few ideas for my own project too.

As it stands right now I can't find a pipe bender to purchase/borrow/rent so the roll cage is still being delayed on the start. Sometime in the next couple weeks i'm pulling one of the engines and giving her a rebuild. Haven't decided yet if it is going to get streetported yet or just leave it with stock porting.

So if any of you know of a good hydraulic or mandrel pipe bender for sale, I need one.

Go to an exhaust shop and bend the pipe there, it will cost you $40 at most to do everything. Don't mandrel bend, it's $$$$$$$$$$$$$ and not necessary. You're not trying to flow stuff through the pipe, are you? :)

I'm going to do a 4 point cage in mine.. maybe 6.

Keep the motor BONE STOCK for your first season. It's difficult enough to control a car with 120HP, never mind 200HP... :)

Just make sure your cage meets the rules specifications in attachment points and pipe wall thickness.

You're right about porting. Race first with a stock port engine and learn your techniques. You'll be better off learning the basics first. Then the next season, have the engine or a engine ported and installed. The 609 car from my pictures is ported. I even have video clips with it taking off from the start line and buzzing by on another stage I was on. Sounds sweet and the guy took second I think in nationals for his class if I recall correctly.

Is there anyone on the forum that's rallied? I've always wondered about the strut towers holding up to the pounding the car takes..

How about using an FC front springs/struts? They're a bolt in replacement, aren't they? Even the base n/a should have stiffer springs and a bit higher height/more travel than any FB unit.

As for the rears.. just a beefier shock that bolts up should work.. and I guess you could add a leaf to the spring?

From what I could see, three out of the four in the pictures I posted were stock suspension setup meaning they didn't modify the strut tower or rear. They put in stiffer springs, shocks and struts. One did modify his to use coilovers which would be the way to go.

pics:

Used gravel rally tires are apparently very abundant in my area. Cheap, too.
I picked up a set of spare wheels for free a few days ago. Yay. I might have found a parts car with a PERFECT body but siezed motor for a few hundred $$$. Gotta go have a better look. It's even another SA, too.


I'm having a hard time finding cheap used rally shocks (for that matter, rally shocks at all!). I haven't looked for springs yet, I think I'm going to go with coilovers.

Will (street) snow tires stand up to rally use? I can get a set of 13" snows for $80...

Does anyone know where I can find rally shocks? The car has aftermarket shocks allready installed, do you think that they'll stand up at all to rally abuse? I'm not on the west coast, most of the gravel roads that I've seen around here are in pretty reasonable shape.


There are a ton of weld in (and bolt in) rollcages for cheap (under $700 US) Most of them are 6 point. I don't think that I'm putting a rollcage into the car until I have the rest sorted out. Hopefully I'll have pics in the next few weeks, I might have enough cash to buy a camera sometime soon.

Well, I don't know if the snow tires will stand up to rally abuse, but I sure as hell know that they grip VERY well on gravel surfaces. I would suggest them for rally use.

Oh yeah, if your looking for stiffer, longer rear springs, the front springs from a Fiat 128 are almost exactly the same diameter as the stock springs but have about twice the amount of coils for reletive length and are quite a bit longer. They are probably stiffer too, but I'm not sure yet. I'm putting them on the rear of my car to stiffen if up hopefully.

cool!

Where the hell did you find a fiat 128?

Surprisingly enough, there was one in the junkyard near me. Its quite possibly the oldest car they have there. Its not in too bad of shape either. But another alternative to stock rear springs is the rears from a Geo Metro!! They are even closer to the same diameter as the stock rear springs on an FB. Only thing is though that they might be weaker than the stock springs. They are after all only holding up a very light car. Me and a friend were almost able to flip one while we were searching the junkyard for stiffer springs for my car. But it was gutted and was a convertable.

I've got a set of metro springs at my house, I'll pull them off next week and find out!.

The back of metros don't weigh much. my (gutted, but still) '89 turbo firefly is light enough in the rear that I lifted a corner up while my dad pulled an extention cord out from underneath one of the tires... now that's light!