Rack and pinion power steering ideas
 

Hello! I'm new here, but not new to mechanics or RX-7s; having owned a gsl-se for several years. My stock power steering pump has sprung a leak and upon further inspection it seems that due to the way it is built putting new seals in it would only be futile as at this point it would probably spring a leak just a couple thousand miles down the road. Instead of overhauling the system it occurred to me it might be a good idea to look into upgrading and replacing the system. In order to put a power assisted rack and pinion in it is going to take a decent amount of fab work, but i"m willing to put the time in. My question is if I could get information from anyone else who has attempted this and any conclusions anyone else has about the project. I have searched the forums a bit and I found something about using a VW Rabbit setup but found (I believe) that it was not and could not be powered. If I could get more info about that it would be awesome as that sounded like a promising project to springboard off of. I could get no pictures off the thread and the website links in the thread are all dead now so any information anyone has woul dbe a great help before I get started.

Whilst pushing my GSL into a garage, I had the lightest of three people present, my buddie's girlfriend sit in the driver's seat while my buddy and I pushed the car.

Not moving, with underinflated tires, in dirt, affected by frint end damage and bad alignment, and with a smaller aftermarket steering wheel, she was able to turn the wheels effectively.

Did I mention she's normally in a wheelchair? These cars are light enough, you don't need power steering.

If you really want to though, I think the best way would be to have gone with the VW setup and modify it for power.

Alternatively, you can replace the front crossmember with an FC crossmember and use the whole second gen front suspension... You'd also have to fab up engine mounts though, as eliminating the FB crossmember means you lose the front engine mounts.

EH.. I don't like the whole replace half your front end with a second gen idea I've heard of that one, but that causes more problems for me then it fixes. Perhaps I should change over to mechanical... Any more info on the VW setup?

The rack from an 80s VW rabbit was adapted for use by a shop here in Canada... the setup was *okay* but the double-u-joint rig that was needed to connect the steering arm to the input shaft of the rack made for a not-entirely-linear feel to the wheel. And it didn't have as tight of a turning radius, and a little more lock-to-lock movement... and the shop sucked so they went out of business methinks. But the idea was alright.

The problem is that you need a "rear steer" rack for our cars, but most cars have front steer. If you use a front steer rack in our cars, you'd have to turn the wheel left to go right, or turn it right to go left. I'm sure you could train yourself to do it, but don't lend your car to anyone, lol.

Steering is one of the unfortunate places where aftermarket improvements aren't currently available for our cars. This may change in the future but for now you're probably better off just getting all the parts you need from blackdragonauto.com to rebuild your rack as a manual, though you'll probably want the steering box from another 7 instead of brand new. They're bloody expensive.

Manual steering isn't that hard. Once the car is moving, you don't notice the difference much. I actually prefer it because you have a better feel of the wheels.

Jon

I've used manual steering before but I always had a hard time turning the wheel while creeping up to u turns etc.

A little more gas pedal and swing that baby around ... no problems there with rear wheel drive. lol

On a more serious note, Billy from ReSpeed is actually currently working on a design for a rack and pinion, been doing so for about a year a think. The main reason that people would want to upgrade to the rack in pinion is mostly due to the wondersteer I think they call, where you turn so much and your wheels aren't turning yet (If you race one of these cars, can be annoying as you wants the steering to be as responsive as possible.)

Seeing ReSpeed's other products .. he really does make some quality stuff.

Ford Festiva uses a rack and pinion, and is rear steer. A guy with a ford courier was looking into that but nothing done.

I think whatever rack someone comes up with should still have a good factory or aftermarket parts market. 1st gen steering box parts are almost nonexistant and I looked recently for stuff for REPU - nada.

I am also looking for options as my '85 GSL SE's steering box is all but worn out. The local mazda dealership wants $1000 (cdn) for a new one, and I've found a used one for 425. I'd rather go with the new one as I want it to be as tight as possible, but that's a lot of dough.
If anyone has seen any other options that are reasonable, please pm me.
Cheers

By the time my new one landed in Canada it was about $850. Twice the used box, but brand new, and less than the dealer wanted.

Where'd you order it from?

Jon

Mazdatrix. That's why I was so pissed when, after buying this not insubstantial item, he turned into a jerk on my second order.

He also repackaged the steering box in a box almist twice the size in every dimension, so I paid beaucoup shipping and duties hence the $850 total.

He did the same to Matt with bushings - repackaged the (already padded) boxes in a huge box with even more packing foam. 'Cept in Matt's case he'd cancelled the order for non-fulfillment, then a week later Mazdatrix billed his credit card anyhow and shipped the cancelled order.

I have the name of the dealer somewhere that Mazdatrix bought the steering box from - odds are he jsut gets a quantity discount. Find out if your local dealer offers any sort of car club discount; you may be able to get 15% off and end up paying the same as if you'd bought from mazdatrix, but without all the hassle and bull.

steering
 

I for one absolutely hate the 1st gen steering. It's the steering setup designed for a truck.

I'm going to convert mine over to front steer by switching the steering arms (converting it to front steer) or custom fabricating a set myself. There are several aftermarket rack and pinions that are the correct length with much faster ratios than anything stock. Using a bump steer kit from Jegs it shouldn't be that hard to get the geometry right. It's going to involve some custom brackets but I'm hoping for a single universal joint which should make the steering wonderful compared to the stock setup.

ReSpeed also is supposed to be working on a setup but I haven't heard anything about it yet.

I'll keep you posted on my progress.

FC crossmember
 

Maybe I am just stupid, but I really do not understnd why everybody wants to re-engineer soemthing that already exists.... the FC crossmember is in hindsight one fo the easiest steering conversons I have ever done, litterally it took me less than 3 days to get the actual crossmember mounted, and all of the rest of the time was my procrastinating about the project.

Pros:

lots of FC parts available
power or manual, your choice
makes dropping a 13bt in a breeze
gets bigger brakes with the package

cons:

have to make new motor mounts if keeping the 12a setup
you no longer have an excuse for missing the turns at the track
you will be spoiled in short order and refuse to own an SA or FB without it !

kenn

If you have the tools and knowledge to do it ... yes it can be done ... but not everyone knows how .. and geometry is not something to play around with too much. Alot of people just want a bolt on affair kinda like what CP racing had, which was a great idea but kinda crappy design as most has pointed out. I would really like to know what billy is using as a base. A hybrid FC would be nice ... or really any old ford because lets face it alot more stuff are still made for them and pretty good quality .. and don't even argue about that...

I would really like to know what billy is using as a base. A hybrid FC would be nice ... or really any old ford because lets face it alot more stuff are still made for them and pretty good quality .. and don't even argue about that...[/QUOTE]


no worries, I happen to be a Ford Fanatic anyways, so a t-bird rack I think would be nice if you can get around the front steer rear steer worries.

kenn

I have the ability to do the 2nd gen sub frame swap and I am really thinking about it, it offers a couple of other benefits for me as well as I just realized it sits slightly lower (I think?) then the -SE suspension. Anyone done a write up for a swap into a SE that I can scan over before jumping in. BTW would anyone be interested in me chronicling my conversion if I go through with it and/or fabricating extra parts etc. to help the less talented or less experienced out?

I was considering the FC route as well, but then Billy started hinting at the respeed r/p so I didn't bother, that was back in October, and seeing as its now June I wish i had continued with my own setup, I'm getting tired of waiting....

Sorry you feel that way. As I am sure you are aware, this is not something we can through together. If we did, it would turn into the same situation as the last option.

We have gone through many revisions as well as thought processes to get to this point. When the unit is ready for customer sales I can assure you there will be nothing like it on the market. It will not be a cobbled up solution.

-billy

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ht=rack+pinion

:)

tou·ché...................


I need to get off my but then :)



-billy

I'm 100% sure that it will be an awesome product, everything else you make seems to be very well thought out and made with care. In the end your setup will be better than anything I could piece together in my home shop, I guess i'm just getting tired of the shitty steering in my daily driver, especiall now that it sees much more highway use than it used to, its all over the place. Is there any kind of ETA for the rp kit yet or are you still ironing out the bugs?

If you are less mechanically inclined, then waiting for the RE Speed unit is definitely the way to go, everything I have bought from Billy is top shelf stuff.

I personally could have made many of the items myself, but with the quality and the quick turnaround (not to mention spectacular customer service) it just made it easier just to order from billy's shop.

the FC crossmember swap is great if you plan to put a 13bt in, as you can swap over the entire wireing harness and get all of the goodies with it. but if you are planning on staying with the 12a, it then presents a whole different range of cahllenges to be surmounted.

kenn

I have the mechanical ability to do such a thing, but with limited time to work on my project car I figured I'd put my efforts into the rust repair and T2 swap portion of things. I'm sure billy's steering setup will be top notch and well worth the wait. :)

I actually picked up an FC front clip but also decided to wait on Billy, his parts are top shelf.

*gets his ladder, scrummages around on the top shelf*
Dammit aussiesmg, I don't see any steering racks up here... oooh, hey look, big brake kits! Fuel Pressure Gauges! FC Fuse Box Brackets!.. umm.. don't wait up, I may be a while

:rlaugh:

Just for info... I noticed yesterday that Saturns use a rear-steer R&P setup. I don't know how adaptable it would be to our use, but I was just flipping through a saturn brochure while waiting for someone and they had a great out-of-car depection of the engine, front crossmember and steering/suspension system, and I was like "hey, it's rear steer!"

Jon

Back when I still worked at my old job (gas station/repair shop) I was constatnly making notes on which cars were rear steer, and somewhere near the same size as a FB, there are actually quite a few rear steer cars, but all much too wide for our purposes. No reason to go crazy trying to make something that Billy has been perfecting for over a year, I'll wait anxiously ;)

You guys do realize that you dont need it to be rear steer right?

All you do is change up the spindles, put the left on the right and the right on the left. There ya go....front steer!

ok and what about the tension rods? They are right in the way for a front steer setup....

right about now would be the time to pull up the thread from before the big system crash with all the pics of some one that tried this. to bad most of that got deleted anybody else remember that? It looked like it would have worked after he modified the rods. poor guy wrecked it on his first try. If I remember right there were 2 other big problems with this idea. what were they? hmm

Haha oops, forgot about that....see the front subframe kit I'm trying gets rid of that. Sorry.

gets rid of? Relocates, would be a better idea. They're a link that helps stabilize the otherwise single-point lower arm.

Correct! Single point.

Mines not single point ;)

ah, so your kit requires new lower arms too.

Seems as we are both heading in the same direction. Tension rods are evil!

-billy

Ah ok, I was worried there for a moment ;)

Well it doesn't require you to get new ones....it will come with them already attached ;) lol.

Jon, I meant Billy does great parts in general, I am prepared to wait on his rack and pinion....lol

Ok, I think now would be a great time to just elaborate on what we are doing. I do not like putting information out until we are 100% ready due to possible changes up until the absolute final point, but in this case we will make an exception.

Just a bit before we head in. Our system has been in the works for over a year. The date on my first model is 2-12-06. We have prototyped 3 units the first two were completely scrapped and we started with a clean sheet of computer screen starting with the 3rd. The fourth piece is our test mule and is very close to the computer models. Throughout this process we have used 3d modeling to achieve the part designs. We have beaten the crap out of the test mule. Used it to bump steer the car and measure camber and caster changes.

The time we take to bring parts to market we feel is well warranted. This year long process does not simply include the assembly itself but also the manufacturing process and fixturing. The CNC machined assembly jig is nicer than allot or parts I have seen on the market. That is just how we do things and it takes time. We also set our goal to not eliminate the use of parts our customers have already purchased as well as to ensure optional upgrade pieces in the future.

The point we are at is this. The unit is 98% to where the final production parts will be. We are happy with the final outcome and feel our customers will be as well. The final bit we are working out is pricing and availability. This is from our suppliers as well as our retail. Finalizing hardware and options as well as fixtures.

This means we are very close to being able to put it in the catalog.

Now for the down and dirty:

*The system is front steer. It eliminates the strut rods with rear arms that turn the lower control arms into lower "a" arms.
*Rack options will be stock ratio, quick ratio and power.
*We will supply all the parts to complete the project. This is 99% BOLT IN, without chassis modifications.
*Does NOT hinder the stock collapsible steering shaft from operating normally. *New main steering shaft angles designed for added collapsibility in case of an accident.
* Allows for track and "turn in" adjustments at the lower control arm inner pivot by means of stock and relocated pick up points.
* Allows for camber and caster gain adjustments.
* Bumpsteer adjustments at the rack as well as outer tie rod.
* Adjustable engine mount for use with 13B and 12A Engines in any 79-85 chassis.
* Solid Aluminum or polyurethane engine mounting.
* Polyurethane rack mounting.
* Works with Stock, polyurethane and Spherical pivot bushings.
* Optional first gen tubular lower control arm.
* Optional 2nd gen style lower control arm for use with 2nd gen strut mounting.
* We will sell this in 3 version. First is just the cross member, Second is complete kit minus the rack and lastly the entire kit with brand new rack.
* Parts are laser cut or CNC machined, down to the last tube. The assembly is tig welded on a CNC machined fixture system.
* Assembly will be powder coated for long lasting good looks.

The pictures below are of the CAD modeled assembly. Not all parts are in the pictures and some of the passenger side pieces that are the same as drivers side are removed for clarity.

Purple is the stock frame rail
Orange is the stock steering tube after being removed from the box
Green is the optional hard or soft engine mount bushings.
As you can see the setup uses a front mount engine cover
You can see the adjustable pivot points for the inner pivots
You can see where the new "a" arm ties into the frame.
the underside shot shows the gusseting and attention to detail put in to each and every piece. There are 30+ custom parts that will make up the ReSpeed Crossmember and Rack upgrade kit.



-billy

Man thats a lot of parts! So it seems like there will be a number of different variations within the 3 different kit types given the optional tubular A arms and all that. I can't wait, too bad I spent all that time sandblasting all the rust off my old suspension parts though.... ;)

You will need a few stock things so it is not a total loss. :)

You can use your stock steering arms and control arms as well as tension rod/ swaybar brackets.

-billy

All I can say is WOW, you took this thing to the next level. I have a feeling this will sell really really good withing the race community. Andjustability in almost everyway, especially having 2 engine types being able to be fitted in there at in one setup as just a bolt on affair. Really really impressed... but then again I'm kinda afraid to see the price tag now lol. Not saying it wouldn't be worth it, it would be worth every penny of it.

I agree, I was surprised too, its basically a completely redesigned front end, not much is left stock. Very impressive! I must be one of the first to have this! :D

Geez Billy....have you been spying on me? Thats crazy how much it looks like the one I have been designing!

Seriously, great minds must think alike! Although I dont have fancy CAD drawings :(
I like the control arms and how you brace it from behind like that, mine is a bit different.

Sounds like you have some driving time with it already....mine hasn't even seen the ground yet. So possibly my design wont work, still working on it in my spare time.

Anyways, looks wicked!

ive seen billys rack in person. AWSOME! that is all that could be expected coming from respeed though. IMO if someone is wanting a great R&P set up and doesnt go with respeed, youre making a mistake. if youve ever seen any of billys work youd know its top notch.

how does the front-steer rack clear the swaybar?

The sway bar arms are above the steering arms. Both travel with the control arm so they never need touch.

Off to the US grand pix. Back on Monday :)



-billy

Also out of curiosity, does the engine sit at the same position as stock or has that also been lowered to lower the center of gravity of the car further more? That would be another thing to look at if it hasn't been looked at. Or you could do something like 2 mounting positions, one at stock and the other about 1"-1.5" lower or something.

This drop would also help in a few other things:

People with the camden superchager get more clearance for an air cleaner,
Slightly better cooling to the engine due to it sitting more infront of the air dam
Enabling to put more velocity stacks on TBI's or webers or the likes.
If purchasing a vented hood from Fibermaz, any of the above should get cleared
Aid in cooling turbos

Cons:
The only one that I can think of would be the people with really big turbo, the rail on the passenger side would just be that much closer if not hitting depending on the manifold made for it.

I may be over looking a big thing with clearance of the rack and pinion ... but I'm just tossing the idea around.

Any idea of the amount of steering angle this kit will allow? Im currently around 45*, with my frame being the limiting point with 32mm offset wheels. With different offset wheels i would love to be some where in the mid 50's up to be more competitive and consistent. I am truly very very hard on equipment, the amount of times ive hit the steering lock is taking toll on the box, and the steering wheel has broken a finger(damn 4 spoke wheel).
Adam

Billy-
all i see in your CAD drawings are the mounts for the rack, do you have any patents pending so we can see what the actual rack and parts will look like? I'm in my second summer as an intern working with an OEM supplier, I work with the R&P group, and i'm curious about some of the part specs and materials your rack will use. I'm also curious about how you're testing your rack, your manufacturing techniques, etc. etc. Is there any way that you can elaborate, here or in a pm, on some specs?