Opinions on S5 6 port swap?
07-17-12, 12:37 PM
#1
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Opinions on S5 6 port swap?
I've been thinking about swapping in a complete S5 N/A engine with wiring harness and ECU. If my engine makes 138hp stock, is fun, and is reliable, shouldn't 165hp stock be just as reliable and even more fun? My current exhaust will bolt right up, and I'll just have to use my SE front cover to mount it, correct? Will I need a different clutch? I'd like to get a lightweight flywheel to improve throttle response. They are pretty expensive though....
Later on, I can run a megasquirt or similar ECU and take advantage of the nice harmonics of the factory S5 intake, while ridding the intake plumbing of the dumb AFM. Maybe make as much as 160-175whp (185-200bhp) without porting. (perhaps this is a bit optimistic)
Other plans:
-Electric fan
-Auxiliary oil metering reservoir, running 2 stroke oil
What do you guys think? I've seen S5 engines all over the place, ranging from $300 to $600 and beyond. Whats a fair price to pay for one in solid running condition with ECU and harness?
Later on, I can run a megasquirt or similar ECU and take advantage of the nice harmonics of the factory S5 intake, while ridding the intake plumbing of the dumb AFM. Maybe make as much as 160-175whp (185-200bhp) without porting. (perhaps this is a bit optimistic)
Other plans:
-Electric fan
-Auxiliary oil metering reservoir, running 2 stroke oil
What do you guys think? I've seen S5 engines all over the place, ranging from $300 to $600 and beyond. Whats a fair price to pay for one in solid running condition with ECU and harness?
07-17-12, 01:05 PM
#2
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the S5 6 port was my second choice for peepers. the pro's are that its stock, makes enough power to be fun, and its stock so its smoggable. its also cheap just because its stock
the cons are that the stock ECU is a little intense to wire up in a gsl-se, its never gonna be a big HP setup (more than 175rwhp is tough).
another good combo is the S5 block, with the -SE intake and ignition. it works really well.
the cons are that the stock ECU is a little intense to wire up in a gsl-se, its never gonna be a big HP setup (more than 175rwhp is tough).
another good combo is the S5 block, with the -SE intake and ignition. it works really well.
07-17-12, 01:45 PM
#4
The biggest drawback for an S5 swap is the electronic OMP. It must be hooked up and working (or at least in a state where the ECU thinks it's working) or else the car goes into limp mode. You will need to either mod your SE front cover to accept the S5 omp, or simply leave it plugged in and tied off to the side out of harms way (I don't advise this method, but lots of people seem to go that route)
Otherwise it's not very tough to wire up assuming the engine harness (also called "right side" harness) is in good shape and you have access to a FC parts car to get the dozen or so plugs needed to make the "left side" harness (has the coils, main relay, circuit opening relay, fuel pump resistor/injector relay, as well as plugs for test connectors etc.)
Otherwise it's not very tough to wire up assuming the engine harness (also called "right side" harness) is in good shape and you have access to a FC parts car to get the dozen or so plugs needed to make the "left side" harness (has the coils, main relay, circuit opening relay, fuel pump resistor/injector relay, as well as plugs for test connectors etc.)
07-17-12, 03:16 PM
#5
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I run my six port on a side draft dellarto with racing beat uim and stock lower intake with the 5th and6th port sleeves removed, gslse front cover and oil pan rb front engine mount. It makes great power and is a blast as a daily driver.
07-17-12, 06:39 PM
#6
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Is your 6 port an S3, S4, or S5?
What if I didn't bother with the factory ECU and just ran megsquirt on the S5 engine.
Would an S4 engine be a decent compromise? Or would it make more sense to just put an S4 or S5 intake on my S3 GSL-SE engine with megasquirt?
If I did run the factory ECU, I wouldn't mind having the OMP plugged in and tied off. I want to run one of these anyways:
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/oil_in...p_adaptors.htm
What if I didn't bother with the factory ECU and just ran megsquirt on the S5 engine.
Would an S4 engine be a decent compromise? Or would it make more sense to just put an S4 or S5 intake on my S3 GSL-SE engine with megasquirt?
If I did run the factory ECU, I wouldn't mind having the OMP plugged in and tied off. I want to run one of these anyways:
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/oil_in...p_adaptors.htm
07-17-12, 09:40 PM
#7
what would be optimal would be an S5 keg with S4 electronics as the S5 has a much more, ummmm "advanced" ECM, and can easily tell if something (I.E emissions stuff) has been removed and throws a hissy fit about it, while an S4 ECM doesnt give 2 ***** about whats there or not, as long as the main inputs are there for fuel calculations, its happy. Same goes for the OMP cause the S4 was still mechanical like the older engines.
Being that the car youre starting off with is an -SE all you would really have to swap over to make the engine fit is the front cover and oil pan
Being that the car youre starting off with is an -SE all you would really have to swap over to make the engine fit is the front cover and oil pan
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07-18-12, 09:37 AM
#10
Agreed, The S5 internals are better but the S4 electronics are simpler. Ultimately the electronics on both kinda suck though...
Personally I wouldn't bother with the NA swap, and go right to the T2, but that's just me and I don't like the 6 port or VDI system's... Over complicates things. IF you keep boost low and manage the heat properly, a turbo setup can be nice and reliable.
Just my 2 cents
Personally I wouldn't bother with the NA swap, and go right to the T2, but that's just me and I don't like the 6 port or VDI system's... Over complicates things. IF you keep boost low and manage the heat properly, a turbo setup can be nice and reliable.
Just my 2 cents
07-18-12, 12:17 PM
#11
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Don't like turbos.
I think I might find an S5 keg and just build it with a DCOE carb or throttle body for the side-draft intake I already have. I just don't know what to do about the ignition part....that's all witchcraft to me.
I think I might find an S5 keg and just build it with a DCOE carb or throttle body for the side-draft intake I already have. I just don't know what to do about the ignition part....that's all witchcraft to me.
07-18-12, 07:03 PM
#13
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run the S5 engine with the GSL-SE ignition and intake/ecu, it works really well
07-18-12, 07:31 PM
#14
Having done the same swap into an SA with the S4 engine, NA EFI, ECU, wiring harness, and electronics my advice would be to just use a stand alone like a HalTech or LinkG4. The initial outlay for the computer will set you back, but the headaches and parts chasing will more than pay for the extra $. That way you can use your mechanical OMP and have the means to fine tune the setup.
07-18-12, 07:46 PM
#15
couldnt agree with you more, after all the fixing, adjusting, and tuning done to my car w/ a full S4 swap, ive found that the FC's ECM, programming, and execution of electronics is fraught with massive holes and failure. The narrow band TPS, position sensitive flapper door VAF, and factory fuel curve leaves me wonder "WTF were they doin?" ultimately though, WOT works pretty well... everything else leaves something to be desired.
07-18-12, 10:27 PM
#17
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If I run a standalone, wouldn't it make sense to use an ITB setup since I already have a sidedraft manifold?
So, it would be like: S5 short block with side-draft ITB, GSL-SE front cover + omp (with aux conversion) and GSL-SE ignition. With a good exhaust setup, could that make 170hp-190hp? Maybe not at the wheels, but at the flywheel?
Can I upgrade the SE ignition while keeping the configuration the same?
If I go this method I can simply use a carb at first and then switch back to EFI down the road when I'm making a bit more money.
So, it would be like: S5 short block with side-draft ITB, GSL-SE front cover + omp (with aux conversion) and GSL-SE ignition. With a good exhaust setup, could that make 170hp-190hp? Maybe not at the wheels, but at the flywheel?
Can I upgrade the SE ignition while keeping the configuration the same?
If I go this method I can simply use a carb at first and then switch back to EFI down the road when I'm making a bit more money.
07-18-12, 11:19 PM
#18
simply put, when i was digging around in the 2nd gen section i found several suprises... A full S5 setup, with a decent port job, free flowing exhaust and an SAFC-II is able to net 180-190+ WHP... more can be gained with stand alone and/or an ITB setup. 6 ports arent as weak sauce as some say. Theyre not the best for all out max power, but have their place for pretty damn good power N/A. for example, hyper4mance2k made 190whp @7300rpm in an IDA carb fed 6 port, and several others did similar with piggy backs on otherwise stock EFI systems. just food for thought.
...And i dont know whether or not itll do my post justice or not, but Im gonna dyno my car this friday night, so we will see what my cheapo build is worth. I know that there are several aspects i could have done better/different in my build, so im not expecting much, but ill post up what happens via video and graph regardless of outcome (mods in my sig)
...And i dont know whether or not itll do my post justice or not, but Im gonna dyno my car this friday night, so we will see what my cheapo build is worth. I know that there are several aspects i could have done better/different in my build, so im not expecting much, but ill post up what happens via video and graph regardless of outcome (mods in my sig)
07-18-12, 11:22 PM
#19
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I know, which is why I'm really not wanting to do a turbo. Six ports seem to make pretty solid power, even on stock ports, as long as the intake and exhaust are well matched and well thought out. N/A has the benefit of better throttle response and a better driving experience to me. Better sound too
07-19-12, 09:01 AM
#20
couldnt agree with you more, after all the fixing, adjusting, and tuning done to my car w/ a full S4 swap, ive found that the FC's ECM, programming, and execution of electronics is fraught with massive holes and failure. The narrow band TPS, position sensitive flapper door VAF, and factory fuel curve leaves me wonder "WTF were they doin?" ultimately though, WOT works pretty well... everything else leaves something to be desired.
Yeah exactly. It works, but it's far from ideal. I bought and assembled a Megasquirt a few months ago, but haven't had the time to wire it into the car and actually tune it, but I'm really looking forward to updating it...
I'll stay out of the turbo vs NA argument (as I've already made my view known lol) but yeah you can get your HP goals with a NA 6 port if done right. Starting with it carb'd to get it running is a good idea, or just retain the -SE manifolds and ecu etc as j9fd3s said.
07-19-12, 09:11 AM
#21
I plan on doing the same, but i really want to run a tweakit ITB setup and Megasquirt with semi PP lol.
To keep it somewhat simple straight swap, i would chip the S5 ECU for the e-omp delete so it doesnt go limp dick. GSL SE front cover/oil pan. Strip the stock S5 harness for whatever needs to be ran + VDI/6port functions (pretty much leave the rats nest the **** alone lol)
Play with the timing some at the CAS, piggyback AFC, wideband, and bolt ons should be very close to 175whp. Lighter flywheel/smaller tires/gear change... good luck finding someone to keep up from 0-80 lol.
To keep it somewhat simple straight swap, i would chip the S5 ECU for the e-omp delete so it doesnt go limp dick. GSL SE front cover/oil pan. Strip the stock S5 harness for whatever needs to be ran + VDI/6port functions (pretty much leave the rats nest the **** alone lol)
Play with the timing some at the CAS, piggyback AFC, wideband, and bolt ons should be very close to 175whp. Lighter flywheel/smaller tires/gear change... good luck finding someone to keep up from 0-80 lol.
Last edited by lim_fc3c; 07-19-12 at 09:36 AM.