starapex

I have read quite a few posts about oil cooling the engine.

Most believe that the rotor turns once for every three e-shaft revolutions and this is true if we only consider the working surfaces of the rotor.

It is my understanding that the rotor completes two or a minimum of one and two thirds revolutions every e-shaft revolution.

The reason for this understanding is the realzation that the rotor is attached to the eccentric bearing and therefore rotates with it. In addition to it the rotor is geared to rotate another 2/3 revolution.

I am perplexed to know if the rotor rotates an additional third of a revolution to complete the four internal combustion engine cycles. or if it is one third out of phase to complete the four cycles.

Regardless the rotor spins at an extremly high speed and the manufacturers have not taken this into consideration. If you look at the construction of the interior of the rotor you will find blades that throw the oil to the working surfaces. At high speed the oil will become a solid and can not circulate. (This is the principle that Torque converters in an automatic transmission use with good results. The exterior of a torque converter does not have combustion taking place around it.)

The manufacturers have failed to remove the blades from one side of the interior of the rotor so one side of the rotor is a high pressure area and the other bladeless side is a low pressure area. In doing this the oil will flow in and out of the rotor and keep it cool.

I use a one inch diameter slitting saw to cut a 1/4 inch slot to the inside of the center of the working surface to provide oil cooling circulation for the rotor.

Hope this is of interest

Cheers
Ken
www.starapex.com

calvinpaul

iTrader: (2)

Huh? K, I'm lost....someone put this in layman (stupid people) terms please.

starapex

What I was trying to say is, when the engine is running at 4,000 rpm the rotor is spinning at 8,000 rpm.

Ken

RRTEC

iTrader: (13)

It's Fuc*ing 2:22 AM.. I just got off work.... You made my brain hurt. I'm going to bed...

Glad it all worked out in the end.

Marek

iTrader: (2)

Okay there is a couple different things you want to conceder. Rotor position In Reference to TDC (Sparkplug side)... But if you just want a straight answer. If you mark a rotor face at TDC, and rotate the E-shaft three times the same face will be at the same TDC. If you rotate it once, the second face of the rotor will be there, and so on. So if we take the rotor on the E-Shaft lobe as a closed environment then for every three revolutions of the eccentric part there is one revolution of the rotor. However if you take it from the center of the Shaft then the rotor is still moving at the same rate. So simple enough I could of just said.. Yes for every 3 rotations of the E-Shaft there is one complete rotation of the rotor. So when you’re going 9000 rpm the rotor is only going 3 grand.

Marek

iTrader: (2)

But since I completly ignored the oil topic I should adress it. Seach for some oil flow diagrams on some of the FMS. The fins are there to direct the oil flow so that it CAN circulate with most surface area passed by. There is still a pump that is quite effective and there is still should be (at least what I get) a 40 PSI pressure differnce from the sump and the pump. Heheheh I made a funny

starapex

Most believe that the rotor turns once for every three e-shaft revolutions and this is true if we only consider the working surfaces of the rotor.

The working surfaces rotate only once every three e-shaft revolutions.

My post was to address the oil pressure inside of the rotor and this pressure is created by the rotor turning twice every e-shaft revolution.

The only way to cool the rotor is to shut the engine off fore a few seconds so the oil will drain out of the top half.

DAVID GRIMES

ddewhurst

I'm with David. ^


From the starapex site. "For the last few months we have been making many duds.


Have Fun ; )
David

Feds

In Laymen's Terms:

"I have no idea what I am doing, but I am good at running a lathe.

For some reason, the prototype I built with a 3:1 reduction works, but it's not because the e-shaft spins 3 times for every rotor revolution

P.S. Mazda is an idiot"

The rotor moves in general planar motion. The centre of the rotor rotates about the centre of e-shaft, as well, the rotor rotates about its centre. It seems that starapex is trying to eliminate the rotation about the rotor centre.

What he is missing is that the rotor does drive the shaft directly. The gears exist only for timing: To keep the rotor in the right orientation at different points in the cycle.

Hopefully the original poster comes back and lets us know what he is doing using a form of english that is decipherable.

REVHED

The original poster of this thread is smoking some serious crack.

starapex

Fifty one years ago on February 1 1954 the Wankel engine was started for the first time. The engine was the DKM 54 or Rotary Piston Engine 54.

This engine had a stationary eccentric and the housing and the rotor rotated in true circles from different center points. The rotor turned at two thirds the speed of the housing. In three revolutions of the housing, the rotor rotated twice and completed three power strokes.

If you hold the rotor stationary you would have the housing rotating over the eccentric shaft . The eccentric shaft will turn twice and the housing will rotate once in the same direction. In this instant you have the eccentric rotating six times and the housing rotating three times.

If you hold the housing stationary (as in Mazda’s engine) you have the eccentric bearing rotating three times as crank arm of the bicycle. The rotor is attached to the crank arm the same as the foot pad and also does three revolutions. The rotor is also geared to the stationary gear which compels it to do an additional two thirds of a revolution or two revolutions for every three e-shaft revolutions. To understand this you have to rotate the foot pad two thirds of a revolution every e-shaft revolution.

All this action forces the rotor to be out of phase by one third every e-shaft revolution. The same as the Wankel DKM 54.

The three to one gearing only takes place on a bicycle pedal type stationary rotating platform.

This three to one gearing will force the eccentric and rotor to do the same as the phasing gears.

The fact is the rotor rotates one and two third times every e-shaft revolution. The phasing gears demand it.

Cheers
Ken

calvinpaul

iTrader: (2)

Yea, I am going to just stay out of this conversation....way to much, ummm, well, crack.

DAVID GRIMES

If that were true, then the timing would "wander" and could only be made to work with a rotor position sensor mounted in the housing to spark at the proper rotor face position regardless of the shaft revs. THAT would be a neat trick, but fortunately not necessary because (again) this is a crock of hammered dogshit (which is easier made than gathered).

DG

starapex

We spent too much money on a system of oil seals and rotor cooling that would have worked if the rotor only turned once for every three e-shaft revolutions. the fact is the pressure of the release of the oil from the rotor was greater than the combustion pressure.

My 83 RX-7 was the worlds greatest oil burner.

We have designed a system to gear the rotor to the e-shaft from the large lobe of the eccentric and this is three to one. This is in addition to the other rotation therefore the interior of the rotor spins twice for every e-shaft revolution.

I am sure that we could do the same for the Wankel DKM 54.

Please note that I have confirmed from my first post that the working surfaces do one revolution in three e-shaft revolutions. The additional rotation that I am talking about is what takes place in the interior of the rotor.

The speed turns the oil to a solid and extremly hot.

Cheers
Ken

Blake

The only fact remains that you have very poor understanding of the mechanics of a rotary engine. The rotors do indeed rotate at 2/3rds the rate of the eccentric shaft....BUT in the opposite direction, netting a 1/3rd forward rate! This means that it takes 1080 degrees of eccentric shaft rotation to turn the rotor 360 degrees (completing 3 cycles). Thus, every turn of the eccentric shaft nets one cycle per rotor. HOWEVER, while the rotor *rotates* at one third of the forward rate of the e-shaft, it still *orbits* at full speed on the journal, so it's more complicated than saying it "moves" at one rate or another unless you break it down. If you want to really start learning about these engines, start by viewing the animations on my web site: Rotary Engine Illustrated, then get back to us. If you desire further information, you should refer to the original "Rotary Engine" by Kenichi Yamamoto, copyright 1969, which gets heavily into the engineering side of every aspect of the engines, including the well-thought-out design of the webs inside the rotors.

Blake

Let me guess...you built that motor yourself, right?!

OnlyOnThurs

This topic has made my boner dissapear

starapex

Blake
Don't get so wrapped up with your understanding if the rotary engine that you fail to take the time study it.

Place a rotor on the back housing with the stationary gear. put the E-shaft through the rotor and position the rotor at the end of the compressiom stroke.

Make mark one in the middle of the rotor and another on the E-shaft at the same location. Now number two and trhee clockwise in the center of the following surfaces.

Turn the e-shaft one half revolution and the e-shaft mark will then line up with number 2 Turn the e-shaft another one half revolution and the e-shaft mark will then line up with number 3.

Note that this all takes place with clockwise motion.

I do agree that orbet is a better choice of words.

Thank you

Ken

cpa7man

iTrader: (2)

Blake, Is that book still available? Thank's as always for your great insight.

Paul

Hades12

cpa7man, Your local Library can do an ILL and find it for you. My wife did a project on Wankel and had gotten that book.

ddewhurst

Hey Ken, forget all the other bull$hit your writting please explain this statement.

***The speed turns the oil to a solid and extremly hot.***

Continue the Fun ; )
David

Feds

C'mon Dave, that's easy. Since the rotor is turning 3x the speed of the crankshaft, the edges must be aproaching the speed of light. We all know that E=MC^2, which supposes that energy is proportional to mass. Since the oil in the rotors has a huge engergy content due to spinning near the speed of light, it must be extremely massive. Since its volume is contained in the engine, it must also be extremely dense. Ergo, it's a solid.

All kidding aside, from the images on the website, it seems that this guy turned some random line drawings into a 5 chambered rotary, then installed one in his minivan. So, he is either a genius whose first language is not english, or is stealing photos from someones website.

Blake

Believe me, that's NOT the problem here. I learned most of what I know in an engine building shop, playing with the parts and figuring things out the "old fashioned way". Then, I started animating them and, finally, discussing details with real engineers. I have Takaharu "Koby" Kobayakawa's email address, phone number and address in my wallet.

I fail to see what you are getting at. The planetary motion is quite simple to understand. All you seem to be pointing out here is that TDCb1 (compression/Power of the 1st face) and TDCa2 (Exhaust/Intake of the 2nd face) are 180 degrees of e-shaft rotation apart. So what? 90 degrees later, you get BDCb1. Each chamber is independant and the strokes take 270 degrees from TDC-BDC/BDC-TDC and four strokes = one cyle. There is one TDC any time an e-shaft journal lobe lines up on the Minor Axis and a BDC every time one lines up with the Major Axis. There is absolutely nothing terribly difficult to understand once you get a handle on the mechanics of the machine.

Again, the planetary motion can be broken down into two parts: the rotor rotates at 1/3rd the forward rate of the e-shaft and orbits at the full rate of the e-shaft. The orbit is small, equating to the eccentricity (e) of the journal, so the forces are relatively small in that respect. Also, what I think you fail to understand is that the oil used to cool the insides of the rotor is fairly minimal and is evacuated by centrepital action. It is not even remotely similar to a torque converter and I think you'd have to be smoking some pretty good **** to come to such a conclusion.

Below is a single page (out of 150) of "rotary engine" by Kenichi Yamamoto, discussing the oil cooling of the rotors. As with everything, a lot of thought went into the design of the oil chambers inside the rotors.

Blake

More like an idiot savant, who's talent is exraordinary in some respects (e.g. good machinist with enough mathematical skill to do something like that) but otherwise totally inept and fails to comprehend some of the simpler aspects of the machine his is attempting to "improve". Every statement this guy makes is idiotic but the examples of what he is doing on the web site are impressive. I can only conclude that he is a talented person with some sort of learning disability. Or, as you mentioned, maybe he is not a native english speaker and is having trouble conveying his thoughts...but I don't know what is unclear about his erroneous statements about the oil in the rotors effectively solidifying and causing problems. How could that be chalked up to translation? He would have to prove to me that he has a better resume in engineering than the VERY smart people who designed the engine, before I would consider his statements remotely plausible.