DJAngelicon

After having a few problems with the darn bung hole this past two days. Is all fixed and now I have my Wideband LM-1 installed.

So, warm up and air calibrated the sensor a few times this pass two days. So, I installed it, and found a great spot to run the wire from. Beside that I have the sensor at the collector before the first pre-cat.

So I warm up the sensor, then started the car and waited until it was warm and started to idle. I drove the car for 10 to 15mins and check the idle and it was changing from 23.x to 28.x AFR. Then driving around 2000rpm in first gear was around 16-18 AFR, 2nd gear around 3000 rpm 15-19 AFR, in 4th gear around 3000rpm was like 15-19 still and then on 5th gear at exact 3000rpm and 60Mph was changing between 15.3 to 15.8 AFR.

So, I would like to know at what AFR a stock 12A engine should be running during idle and during driving. I haven't done a high performance drive yet all of this was casual normal driving.

Can someone let me know in here if I am running way to lean?

Thanks In advance!

Rx7carl

Congrats! I'm about to order my LM-1 with the aux box. Any feedback on your unit so far? Did you get any RPM monitoring capability?

Yes your running way lean. IIRC around 12.5:1 for best power? Go look in the race section, I think theres good numbers there. I have a bunch of info written down at home but Im at work at the moment.


EDIT: A quick look at the race section confirms what I posted. Here's one thread.

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ight=afr+power

DJAngelicon

Hey thanks Rx7carl, Yes so far the unit I got is nice, and I already started using LogWork to view my AFR on the PC. I took a few sessions with it so I can to monitor different situation which is nice. So overall I really like the unit and is a great tool to have. I didn't get the RPM or the aux box. I am planning of getting the RPM thing later on along with the Gauge.

Beside that, I had a feeling I was running way lean, also so, I will start tuning soon. I blew a coolan hose today on my way home and almost over heated my engine. I will try to fix that first before I start tuning again. Let me know once you get yours and if you get that RPM or Aux Box I would like some feedback about it.

Oh, yea Thanks again for the link.

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Read your PM and really don't have an answer for you. However, it would be a good idea to for eveyone who is running a wb to post thier afs and mods. This would help all of us with tuning. I agree with Carl your #s are too lean, however, I think 12.5 is more for turbos. I haven't read the link he provided so I may be removing my foot from my mouth after reading it. lol

DJAngelicon

True that, here are some of the log I did today. The first one is a highway run which I had 5th gear doing 3000rpm or so and 60 to 65Mph.



Second one was idle after a good run.

Weed Wacker

You don't have enough info to tell if you are running lean yet. Those AFRs are NOT at WOT, the 12.5:1 AFR is measured during a sustained (at least all of third gear) WOT pull. 12.5:1 is a good guideline to follow for horsepower but it differs slightly depending on your setup, the fine tuning stuff can really only be done on a dyno. You will make good power using that AFR as a rough guide, don't get me wrong, but a little lower here and a little higher there can only really be fine-tuned on a dyno or something along those lines to quantify your changes.

Oh, and my A/F is at the bottom of the picture.

DJAngelicon

Oh i c, so I must use 1st, 2nd and then run 3rd upto red line?

Weed Wacker

No, i just used third as an example. What you do is start in a gear, any gear but 1st. Lets just use third as an example. The reason i say third is that since it takes longer than a split second to get through the gear and your not going way into ticket territory, you have time to analyze what rpm that particular reading is at. Anyways back to the example. Once your in third gear bring the rpm down to say 2500. Now that your steadily moving along in third @ 2500 rpm start that datalog or just watch the guage and floor it. Go all the way to redline and let off, and end the datalog session or whatever and see where you ended up A/F wise. Now that you have one pull done, do at least 2 more using the EXACT same procedure used during the first one, just to keep things consistant. Now that you have three pulls, you can make an average through analyzing your data (if you can lay all three maps across each other it makes things much easier to visualize). You don't have to follow this procedure exactly, it just serves as a rough guide, this is how i street tune all of my cars.

DJAngelicon

I c, thanks Weed_Wacker. I just finish fixing my coolan hose so hopefully I would not burst another one. lol I hate this Oil filter that sit on top instead of the buttom version which I had on my old FB.

DJAngelicon

Wow! Weed Wacker got a much better ready doing it that way. I actually saw my engine going from 16 to 12.x and the lowers 11.6 all on third gear. However I going did uptop 5000rpm doing 60Mph due to the fact my firewall coolan hoses are not great for that kind of pressure. So, I got new one to replace them with all thanks to Dan Atkins for having them in stock. =)

Weed Wacker

no problem, fix that hose so that you can see where you end up in the higher rpm range too! Looks like it's time to lean it out a little. Is your car stock?

Rx7carl

Great thread and I'll be sure and post when I get mine and start fooling with it. I'm sure itll be easier than the EGT and narrowbands Ive been using. Well to clarify further on what I posted, the 12.5:1 is under heavy load such as hard acceleration. This all is applicible for N/A engines. Cruising and light load AFR should be leaner, like in the 14.x:1 range. No need for all that fuel (I hope that clears up any confusion from my earlier post Scott). Thats why theres so much to tuning a carb. Idle should be set first because it affects the rest of the mixture all the way to redline, also the fuel pressure and float level has a big effect, then theres the AP shot (not readily adjustable) . Thats where you get the extra fuel during hard accel in the transition into the transition and main circuits. At the same throttle position during cruise the carb circuits will be leaner because the AP isint introducing extra fuel into the engine. And so on and so on. Roundabout way of saying that you wont have the same AFR at a given RPM all the time. Engine loading changes the needed AFR. Entire books have been written on the subject. And I agree, your particular setup and engine will need to be tweaked for what makes best power and such for you. That last %10 is unlocked this way. I really feel the RPM correlation is the minimum extra your going to need so you can have logs that are easier to read and see where changes need to be made. Ok I'm done rambling.

DJAngelicon

Hey Weed_Wacker, my car is fully stock. I just been replacing a lot of stuff to have it very realible and to give me good mpg incluing that 1HP with a good tune if anything.

I c Rx7carl, Well, I would get a much better reading once I take it for the next test drive. I just finish replacing every hose so I should be ok. I will post those numbers once I have ran it and clear any bubbles of the system.

trochoid

iTrader: (6)

Good info Carl, I'm sure you could write a small novel yourself on tuning. That did clear up the AFRs, I was thinking steady state cruising and not AFRs under load, makes much more sense the way you put it.

I have little reference material to go by, but an example of AFRs is listed in my Mikuni manual. Shows a graph similiar to what the wideband would output but the X side of the scale is a percentage of throttle input. It shows AFRs in the 9 range at idle, which I find odd, but not for as rich as they run at idle. From idle to 30% throttle, the AFRs go quickly towards stoich, at 20% throttle, the main circuit kicks in. From 75 to 100% throttle the AFRs richen up to the low 12s, high 11s. This pattern seems to confirm what Carl is saying.

Weed Wacker

I like your idea of doing 3 identical runs and then overlaying them for averaging. That would give a better overall representation by weeding out any single run anomilies. At the same time it would confirm whether a blip in the graph was a one time event or consistant fueling event that needs addressed. I don't remember reading this method in the LM-1 manual, but it makes good sense to me.

Since I had to return the LM-1 that was on loan to me, it's time to buy one for myself, with the rpm add on. I would really like to do a final tune on the 1/2 bp, but it needs a bigger carb. Buying one now doesn't make much sense with the TII swap looming this winter. Probably should though for no other reason than getting experience with wideband tuning. Better to risk the 12A engine, rather than a freshly built TII.

Rx7carl

LOL I'm still learning. Everytime I tinker I learn alot. Then I go off and do some research to find out why my test went the way it did when the results arent what I expected. All of this info is out on the net. Its such a great resource. It's like an onion, the more layers you peel, the more there are. How deep does the rabbit hole go?

I like that idea too. From reading the stuff over on the innovate site they showed how an ignition miss will show up as an anomoly/spike. I cant wait to get my new toy.

glosoli

how come its so hard to find the basics of tuning?maybe i need to search some more :/

i really like this thread...it clears a lot of stuff out.

Frostycrowd

iTrader: (9)

dude I dont care about your bung hole, thats a personal problem

DJAngelicon

Yea the Innovate Videos is pretty nice. I feel like I might need to pick up that RPM Conversion so if anyone here is thinking about that and doesn’t have an ECU. I would recommend getting the LM-1 with the RPM Conversion. I personally think it was be helpful.

I took a few tests today and it looks like I am on the lean side more than I am on rich. During most of the gears I am holding 15-16 AFR and during red line in 2nd gear I am holding 12. What you guys think? I like 3rd for testing but were I live there is a lot of cops cracking down on speeders. So, 2nd gear is best for testing and easy to redline quickly.



One of the best run I have done today.

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

huh huh uhh you said bung hole! huh uh uh bung hole!

Through out my experiances 12.5 is best when you're turbo. You want it 13.5-14 if you're na at full throttle for the most power.

Weed Wacker

That seems real lean to me, is that 15-16 A/F at light or a heavy load? It would make sense at light load but if that at heavy load that would not be good at all.

If you cant overlay the graphs (some wideband software allows you to, others don't) just print the sessions out and compare them side to side. Remember, consistency is key, if you make your procedure different every time then your readings are not going to be as comparable.

Also, its nice if you can do the sessions back to back on a smooth level road because then your car is encountering the same weather and road conditions which removes a lot of variables. I know that your not driving in laboratory conditions but the closer the better.

DJAngelicon

Cool I c, thanks Weed_Wacker I will give it another shot when we get some sun and this darn rain would stop. But for now, I will wait.

To answer your question this was on a heavy load. The big spike was when the buzzer came on and I had shift to 3rd.