Best non-Nikki set-up?
 

I am looking to get rid of all the "rats nest" stuff and go to a new carb. I know there are several options, but I want to keep the car as stock as possible. This means I am not looking for the most performance focused set-up, just simple. Let me know the set-up and why.

well i run a holley. but everyone will tell u holley sux cause so many ppl can't seem to get them to work for them. quite a few ppl run weber or dellorto, then there's mikuni to round out the big 2 bbl carbs. then there's the sterling modded nikki. the sterling might be ur best bet if ur looking for the cheapest way since it will retain the stock intake.

I run a 48 DHLA on a 13B and I know some 12A guys have run 48s on them before but I'm not sure if a 45 is better suited. I personally loved the DHLA once I got comfortable working on it and understanding how it all works, it's a very simple carb and after a full rebuild and reading some material from Dellorto, they are a snap to work with. The biggest con to the Dells is not many people outside the RX-7 community use them except on cult cars like the VW Bug, Triumphs and MGs so subsiquently there are only a few business' that still stock rebuild kits, jets and misc parts for them, CB Performance being the only US based one I know of. The 48 atleast being a big 2bbl also means that fuel economy is going to be alot less than stelar, I currently get about ~16mpg [driving nice] probably 18 on the straight lonsome Texas highways if I'm lucky. You will also lose your choke function unless you can find a way to rig up a push-pull as the choke on the Dells goes AWAY from the firewall as opposed to towards or parallel.

As with before, the 12A guys will have to chime in on what specifically they had to do to tie in vacuum lines and other stuff to make their conversions complete as my setup is about as stripped down as they get as far as blocked off OMP, vac lines, etc.

I would also suggest you invest in a Wideband O2 if you haven't already taken that into account. The Innovative LC-1 is about $250 and it comes with everything, the gauge, the controller [built in to the wire] and the gauge [analog is the most accurate and fastest responding] to help with tuning and subsiquently problem diagnosis.

Here's a bit of reading on how the DHLAs function so you can make sense of em yourself and decide if it's something you'd want:
http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/Dello..._W168C1334.cfm

CB Performance Link for parts:
http://www.cbperformance.com/category.asp?CategoryID=6

get a sterling nikki. sounds perfect for your needs. or strip your own. the idea of changing the carb and keeping the car stock is very contradictory. there isnt much point in getting an upgraded carb to run stock performance. cuz with that youll also need a fuel pump. just to get the new carb enough fuel. that means a pressure regulator. you'll also need a new air cleaner. and intake manifold. also it will be much more of a hassle to keep cruise and a/c if your car is equipped. you'll also need to do something about oil injection. or start premix. or both

There may not be a 'best' overall aftermarket carb. Each setup has it's own strengths and weaknesses. One picks the carb that best suits their use of the car. Which means you need to provide more info on your intended use.

+1 on what Trochoid just said. You need to determine your needs.

I've run a dell 48 DHLA on my stock port 12A now for 20 years. Thats
right 20 years. Damn I'm old :lol: Anyway, to dispell some myths.

You can retain your choke as it should hook right up and work fine. It does on mine.

Most folks don't use vacuum advance because theres no ported vacuum source on
the RB intake or Dell carb. Its a presonal choice. I ran with it for many years and
then I stopped using it when I re-did my ignition because I felt I didn't need it
anymore.

The 48 with 39mm chokes works great with a 12A. My timing is set at about
24 degrees at 4000 rpm. I get about 17 mpg in town and around 20 to 25 on the
highway. The longer sidedraft intake from RB brings the power band down a
bit to make it a more civilized solution for driving in traffic. You loose some top
end but on a stock engine you wouldn't notice it.

Heres a good site for the dell http://www.gruntled.com/Dellorto

I get my parts from www.dellorto.com in the UK because they are better to deal
with and more prompt to ship than CB preformance. I would avoid CB if at all
possible.

I'd get a sterling Nikki. That way you don't have to switch manifolds and still have the oil injection, and I've heard nothing but good things about Sterling Nikki's. I've always thought the Nikki's were good carbs with decent size jets coming on them. The only downside to the Nikki's is the stock manifold, which doesn't come close to the flow capacity of the carb itself or an RB or similar manifold.

BTW Don't the RB Holley's have oil injection hookups??

doh! Read the title: it says "best non-nikki set-up."

yes but he also said he wanted to keep the car as stock as possible. which is extremely contradictory. which is why so many people including myself are pointing towards the sterling nikki

read between the lines. removing rats nest means non-smog exempt and his plan is to run a stock motor with the best aftermarket carb. My recommendation is an IDA as usual. It will cost you a little bit more than the "modified nikki" but you only have to buy it once as an IDA can be used on many applications.

having learned the Weber IDA, i would run that too.

my next choice would probably be a holley

I also have a dellorto DHLA 48 on my stock port 12a, it was jetted for a 13b so I made a thread about installing it. gas mileage is ok, prolly a little less than T_G farrel....i still havent gotten my stock electric choke to work...i broke the line..trying to get it to reach...overall the carb is fun...also has a great sound..i think my carb is louder than my full racing beat exhaust...lol

https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/dellorto-48-dhla-swap-13b-12a-not-56k-friendly-773154/

I don't quite understand. If you're looking to keep the car as stock as possible and as simple as possible, why not go for a Sterling Nikki? It gives great performance and is extremely simple compared to all the crap on the stock Nikki.

A Sterling Nikki is a direct bolt-on swap, it flows as much air as a Holley 465 (but does a better job at it because it's got a much better venturi design alogn with MANY other mods), it looks good, works great with removed rat's nest, and the simplified throttle linkage can't be beat. They're easy to tune if you do decide to get on a dyno, and the performance implovement you get with it is awesome.

All of that to say, don't limit yourself to "non-Nikki" setups, because for what you've said you're aiming for, a Sterling Nikki sounds like your best bet.

Jon

I meant to say "non longer be smog compliant," instead of "non-smog exempt"

I have to disagree. its not easy to change jets on a Nikki and Holley (unless you have a weber plate) and if you aint playing with diferent size venturies, you are "guessing." but for the $1,000,000 question: what will happen if you decide to go with bigger porting say street, bridge or p-port?

for get about sterling.....aka .. the carb napper.....if you send him your carb you may never see it again.....weber or custom holley..

since he stated he doesnt want a performance based carb, im going to go out on a limb and say he wont be messing with jetting or plans to street or bridge port.

we wont know for sure until he chimes back in tho...

Try to stay away from holley though.... theyll work, and have choke functions, but
my GSL; before my brother wrecked it, had a RB holley. I switched to center pivot bowls, spring loaded needle and seats, road racing floats, and medium jet extensions with foam moroso baffles (both sides) and it *still* stalled out in corners/flooded. You couldnt park on an incline and there is virtually no tuning feedback even from RB. All I ever got was "every holleys different" or "then you must have installed it wrong". I dont wanna bash RB, but those things seriously suck unless you are dragracing.

I switched to a sterling nikki, (ebay purchase, used,and one of his early works) and it is flawless. Youll never know how much you appreciate the nikki until youve spent a few hundred just trying to make a holley work on your engine.

I dont have any experience on the webers and dells though. Maybe my next setup.

Carb napper? I dont know about any of that.:scratch:

custom holley= VERY custom. unless your really lucky.

Great feedback! When I stated "stock" as possible, I meant that I am not looking for more performance and a port is out of the question. I have an SE that I am doing some performance mods to, but I also have a GS that was a 1 owner, so I didn't want to squid it out. The Sterling Nikki sounds like it may be what I'm looking for. Even though I said non-nikki.

Well, the webiste for the Sterling Nikki says "no more orders". What is the cost?

Funny....Sterling hasn't chimed in.

good choice BTW.

Sterling has other priorities, so orders will have to wait since it's a side business/hobby for him.

However there are links in the FAQ page to threads made by him that will show you how to do some of the mods that he does to the Sterling with your own carb. It won't be a full blown Sterling, but for homemade it'll be pretty good and will improve the driveability and feel. You can also use Holley 10/32 thread air bleeds (slightly different thread pitch, but close enough for government work) to swap with the fuel jets, so you can do some minor fuel tuning with the stock carb. It's pretty well setup from the factory, but there are always improvements to be had. Check out www.sterlingmetalworks.com for tons of Nikki info.

And Wacky, it takes me maybe 5 minutes to change any of the jet's/air bleeds on my Sterling. That's if the hood is closed and the engine is hot. If I'm in a hurry I can get it done pretty quick. The mods done to it allow for very easy removal of the carb top. Maybe it can be done faster with a 2 barrel, but we'd be talking a difference of a couple minutes. Not a huge deal.

part of my sterling carb adventure involved swapping jets, just to get the car to run.

also sterling #1 had different jetting from sterling #2.

#1 got dropped by ups, so #2 was ordered.

I can change the jets on my Dell while the car is running! Try that with any 4 barrel
and let me know how it goes.

I can change air bleeds on a holley while its running, as long as its high speed air bleeds; and given I dont drop them in the carb throat.

It doesnt matter, there is still tuning (changing jets and such) involved. What work for sterling may not work for him. In other words, you wont get the full potential of the motor. this is where you separate the boys from the men.

I am the guy who started the thread that got sterling nicknamed "the carb napper". He's been paid and I've been waiting since Sept. 15, 2009. Coming up on 15 months. I don't know if this is typical but it's my story. I'd recommend looking elsewhere.

....OK, well I didnt know about any of that. If thats true, why not dispute through paypal? (if you used it)

What of the possibility of it being lost through the mail? Ive had some important things "lost" en route before. Somehow bills never disappear though.....

:scratch:

No, I sent a money order and besides sterling, when he answers at all, has never disputed that he was paid. I'm just really tired of hearing"it will get done later this week or next week". I still do believe that I'll get a carb someday but I was originally waiting on this one to mahe the car run. I have since bought a junkyard carb and rebuilt it. I've gotten it running but with my being carb challenged, I've had a mostly non running car for well over a year.

Haha, Sterling got dubbed the carb napper. I hope he straightens this out with you Clubber. He rebuilt my carb most recently and I must say it does run like a charm. I guess you can classify my car as being very modded yet stock.

i was waiting for you to post.....:egrin:

Clubber... in the meantime, why notwork out the kinks in the junkyard carb you rebuilt. It'll make you that less carb challenged for when you do finally get it back.

why wait for sterling? i stopped by one of the other mikes shop, and he's been running modded nikki's for probably 30 years.

I actually have been. The carb I rebuilt didn't work at all at first. It now (about 3 times into it) works good except for hot starts and at idle. I'm getting more comfortable with it and it's getting better every time. To the OP; sorry for getting off topic, I was just trying to warn you about how the sterling might go for you. I still hope I get one.

No one has suggested the carb I am using - a 13b carb, used on the RX-4, Cosmo and Rotary Pickup. There are two styles, 1974-75 and 1976-78, slightly different fuel inlet arrangement, but both seem to work about the same for me. I have one in a 1984 GSL with a ported 12a, and one on a 4-port 13b, both give good power for normal street driving, and have no significant cold or hot driving issues. The only weak point is the accelerator pump, which should be replaced before you start driving unless the carb comes directly off a good running car.

My 12a dyno tested at 130hp to the wheels with mild porting and a RB header. The 13b has mild porting (secondary ports only) and a stock cast iron manifold, and I estimate it has about 160- 165 hp at the flywheel.

I think you need more carb on that ported 12A. My stock port 12A
with the Dell puts down 134 rwhp (this is on a dynojet). I would expect
your ported 12A to be around 150 something.

+1

But, the rotary carb stuff is cool because you can put stock snorkels on them and stuff. Fuel curve is probably spot on, too.

Out of all your options,(being holley, weber, and nikki) I'm not sure what i'd go with. All have there strengths. Holley being popular, weber being a race bred; Insanely simple, precise, well fuel atomizing carburetor, and super easy to tune if i may add(with endless possibilities)...

With the nikki on the other hand, it's just about the right size. It's 'original' so you know it's not far off. And, in my opinion. Once the nikki is stripped and rebuilt it's good to go on just about anything. It CAN make big HP numbers. Racing Beat states that a modded Nikki can make 240 HP SAE on a Normal Bridge 12A, not a J-Bridge. Normal bridge.. So, i think the nikki is very sufficient. No telling how much more torque the nikki made than the Weber or Holley with those numbers.
I'm not going to say what is better than what. I have a weber, but, i'm going back to Nikki.
That's my preference/opinion.

"I think you need more carb on that ported 12A. My stock port 12A
with the Dell puts down 134 rwhp (this is on a dynojet). I would expect
your ported 12A to be around 150 something. "

I think the Dellorto has much more potential than an RX-4 carb. According to the experts at RB, the stock 12a carb is rated at 315 cfm, the RX-4 carb at 345 cfm, only a small gain. In addition, I should point out that I only port the secondary intakes on my motors, using the RB street port template.

I collected a few of the RX-4 carbs back when everyone was throwing away those cars, might be harder to find now. I also made my own intake manifold, starting with an RX-3 manifold and adding a flange to fit the bigger carb. In other words, it was all free to me except for my labor. All of the other options discussed here will make more power, but they cost money - I went for the cheap alternative. I have been driving it like this since 1997, and I am happy with the overall performance and driveability. It has noticeably better performance than a stock 12a car and gets the same fuel mileage.

what about itbs?

those will work. u just need some sort of ecu to run the fuel injection.

Dude. Holleys do not infinitely tune. You are severely restricted to the emulsion tuning based on the carb the metering plates came with. You can even go to billet blocks with exchangeable bleeds, and youll be hard pressed to get it "right".

I even used a 390 hp with billet blocks and an "infinitely tunable" fuel curve, and it sucked ass on my 12A. The 12A barely notices even radical changes in the holley emulsion well.

Example: My 390 hp had 3 circuit emulsions, and every orifice in the well of each block was .28

Theoretically, changing any of those to a larger orifice would lean out that part of the RPM band. (the top orifice in the well is the lower RPM, middle is mid range, while bottom is high RPM)

My car was very rich everywhere but the bottom end, so I increased size on the bottom orifice to .35 I was shocked to learn that that large of a change only lowered my AFR up top by an average of 0.1 AFR!!! I went back and changed to an even larger size (.42) and tried again for a final average of 0.3 difference in AFR from the tiny .28

At that point, the well was opened up too much to go any further. Went back to .28 bleeds and changed the primary high speed air bleed from a .29 to a .35, only to get freaking detonations in the mid range. Because the carbs are so small for use with a 12A, the emulsions tuning is a super fine tuning effect. (Holleys at least)

Secondly, holley transition circuits suck balls. The transition fuel supply is reliant on the acc. pump and power valve which are largely a catch-up game. The other suppliers of transition enrichment are the Idle air bleed, idle feed restriction and main jet. Changing the main jet screws with everything else, and going to a larger idle feed restriction for transition sucks for the idle quality.

You also have to realize that the throttle blade angle also affects transition a great deal, so with the proper angle, you cant tune the idle speed without screwing up the transition circuit. My carb idled at over 1200 rpm set to the correct transition slot/blade angle. Any lower, and hesitation.

Of course all of that can be fixed with ass-tons of plug fouling fuel thrown at it. I did this eventually and had to deal with craptastic 11 mpg. Plus it backfired a lot too.

And then you have the the biggest flaw in the design, the stupid fuel bowls. Cornering sucks balls (high g-load AND moderate load) And mine typically sucked on Decel too.

With the crap fuel economy, high idle, and even crappier reliability, I threw my arms in the air and bought the carb that was designed for the rotary in the first place, the Nikki.

Horsepower is only bragging rights if your car runs ok while making it. Youll be the laughing stock of your neighborhood pulling over after ever stop light to play with the idle screws on your holley, throwing fireballs and just generally running like crap unless your on an even surface going in a straight line. Holleys suck period, even worse on rotarys. People like them because they are modular and lightweight. They can even be reliable on conventional engines, but only just.

Say NO to the holley....:icon_tdow

Theres also 4 bbl TBI, like the units used on early 90s GM V8's. Ive heard of much success with using those with a megasquirt ECU.

I'm glad you got your sterling figured out. Too bad, you're too far away from me so I can show you that it only takes less than a minute to change jets on a IDA or weber sidedraft (including mikuni, dellorto and such). Thats me after a 12-pack of heines.

If the only thing you can do is change jets/air bleeds, without trying out different size of venturies, then you're doing a half-ass job in tuning.:lol::lol::lol:

on a side note, if I ever decide to go back to Nikkis, it aint gonna be the nikkis out of FBs. It will be the real nikkis out of a RX-2/3. otherwise, I would rather push my car and take the bus :lol::lol::lol: I;m sure I can still play with this one that I built 2 decades ago

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...r/DSC06315.jpg

my collection of carbs, old pix but you get the point.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...r/DSC06154.jpg

Did I add your pretty much stuck with the venturi's that come with holleys?? lol:lol:

Free trumps all! I fully understand.

ALL carbs are like this. the IDA is actually a little too small for a big HP engine and will idle on the 1st transition hole.

you can get the main circuit to come on when you need it, so its not really a problem, except that the idle mixture screws do less and the idle jet does more

Say, you are married with 1 kid and have plans to have 2 or more kids. Would you buy a 2 bedroom condo unit? I say "NO" as you have to look ahead as a 2-bedroom will be too small for a growing family.

The above apply to cars as well. If I have to spend $300+ on a "modified" stock or a holley or 45 DCOE carb, I would rather spend a little bit more on an IDA (or similar) as I can re-use it shall I decide to upgrade to a ported motor; it just takes a simple re-jetting/change of venturies. However, if you are satisfied with running a stock 12-A and competes under a strick guidelines, then be it. And lastly, choose who you will line up at the light as you may get smoked.

Although I may sound like I'm preaching about IDA, that is not my intention. I just want to share my experience as you may end up having a collection of carbs just like me.

True, but carbs like the quadrajet, thermoquad, and the carter AFB pull almost entirely on the main supply for off idle transition, PLUS the idle feed restriction on holleys is generally not exchangeable, thus requiring idle air bleed tuning to establish a rich idle in every case. The transition circuit on holleys SUCK. ALL holleys idle a bit rich for this reason, even by going to larger idle feed restriction, and larger idle air (theoretically the cure) you risk detonation when transitioning yet again from cruise to power. Holleys are set up for general piston variant fuel curves, tuning them to a knifes edge on rotary's is IMPOSSIBLE. I challenge you to beat my custom 430 CFM holleys fuel curve, (digitally designed, tested on dyno, and billet components, flowbenched AND streamlined by Quickfuel) and even with all the money and engineering still cant hold a candle to the precision of a well sorted factory carb.

I still cant stress enough the archaeic fuel bowl design. Youll hate it.

End rant.

P.S., I have still never run any sidedraft or downdraft weber, so I cant compare to those.