Bad Idle, low power... help...
06-06-02, 02:16 AM
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Bad Idle, low power... help...
Hi guys,
I'm a newbie here and a newbie to this car. Its an 85 GS I just picked up. Here are the symptoms...
The car is all stock, manual tranny.
Very low idle, wants to die, but will stay on.
At start up, I pull the choke, the car's RPM climbs to 2000 and sits very smoothly. As soon as its warm it goes down and bounces between about 300-700 RPM, barely alive and shaking like hell.
With no load the car will rev freely and smoothly as high as you want to rev it.
Driving: It has very little power but is smooth. At WOT, the car groans, as if something is clogged, and the exhaust note gets louder, not in a good way.
What I've done to get it to this point...
I've changed the plugs with NGK's and NGK wires. I've also changed the cap and rotor, and the air filter.
The car is very driveable, the symptoms are frustrating, it wants to go but it wont.
Oh and I did check all previous forums to get some ideas and although many seemed close, none were quite the same problem as mine. ATF treatment was applied tonight and will be started tomorrow, the shutter valve does not "suck" at idle, i do get spark and fuel system looks to be kosher, oh and I've done the listen for three puffs compression test, what else???
Thanks in advance,
Don
I'm a newbie here and a newbie to this car. Its an 85 GS I just picked up. Here are the symptoms...
The car is all stock, manual tranny.
Very low idle, wants to die, but will stay on.
At start up, I pull the choke, the car's RPM climbs to 2000 and sits very smoothly. As soon as its warm it goes down and bounces between about 300-700 RPM, barely alive and shaking like hell.
With no load the car will rev freely and smoothly as high as you want to rev it.
Driving: It has very little power but is smooth. At WOT, the car groans, as if something is clogged, and the exhaust note gets louder, not in a good way.
What I've done to get it to this point...
I've changed the plugs with NGK's and NGK wires. I've also changed the cap and rotor, and the air filter.
The car is very driveable, the symptoms are frustrating, it wants to go but it wont.
Oh and I did check all previous forums to get some ideas and although many seemed close, none were quite the same problem as mine. ATF treatment was applied tonight and will be started tomorrow, the shutter valve does not "suck" at idle, i do get spark and fuel system looks to be kosher, oh and I've done the listen for three puffs compression test, what else???
Thanks in advance,
Don
06-06-02, 02:22 AM
#2
Check the large vacuum hose that runs from the back of the air cleaner to the back of the intake manifold (right along the firewall). Mostlikely this hose is split open due to exhaust heat and causing a large vacuum leak. If it is split then you can fix it by wrapping some aluminum ducting tape around it till you get a new hose.
06-06-02, 02:57 AM
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Have you considered that your catalytic converters may be clogged? The fact that you say you have very little power could lead to this possibility. Try running your car with only the exhaust manifold (ie. unbolt the cats) and see if you solve the problem.
That large vacuum hose described above is infamous and will cause the exact low idle / shaking problem you describe (I've had that problem before). Have a look around all the other vacuum lines for problems too. Thing is, if your car starts but idles shitty I'd think it's probably only a small leak (if you unplugged that big tube you wouldn't even be able to start the car, at least in my experience). I'm doubtful that this would cause your 'very little power' on the road though, based on my experience with a similar leak.
If you fix the problem, for optimum idle smoothness, you'll want to set your idle speed and mixture (search forum.) A healthy car should idle at 2700rpm with the choke pulled out and the cable properly adjusted, around 750rpm with no choke.
Maybe add a new fuel filter to your efforts, cheap and easy preventative maintenance that should be done every year or so.
Sorry I don't have any better ideas... I'm sure the gurus will be on here in the morning to help you out. Good luck!
That large vacuum hose described above is infamous and will cause the exact low idle / shaking problem you describe (I've had that problem before). Have a look around all the other vacuum lines for problems too. Thing is, if your car starts but idles shitty I'd think it's probably only a small leak (if you unplugged that big tube you wouldn't even be able to start the car, at least in my experience). I'm doubtful that this would cause your 'very little power' on the road though, based on my experience with a similar leak.
If you fix the problem, for optimum idle smoothness, you'll want to set your idle speed and mixture (search forum.) A healthy car should idle at 2700rpm with the choke pulled out and the cable properly adjusted, around 750rpm with no choke.
Maybe add a new fuel filter to your efforts, cheap and easy preventative maintenance that should be done every year or so.
Sorry I don't have any better ideas... I'm sure the gurus will be on here in the morning to help you out. Good luck!
Last edited by SilverRocket; 06-06-02 at 03:00 AM.
06-06-02, 03:14 PM
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Search the forum, instructions are there on setting idle speed/mixture..
It doesn't matter though - idle speed/mixture adjustments have to do with just that. They have no effect on anything once you're driving down the road. You might get it to idle smoother by adjusting them, but from what you've described that certainly isn't your main problem.
There isn't much you can "tune" on the Nikki. That's not to say there aren't lots of things that can go wrong though lol. Personally, I wouldn't get into a carb rebuild if you don't know anything about it. I'd try to get in touch with someone who knows what they're doing if it comes to that.
Dude, if you're working on your car you had better get yourself a workshop manual!! The Haynes manual is acceptable. You need to know how to do stuff like set your idle, etc, and it's all in there.
I think you should try unbolting your exhaust like I suggested. That could be your problem. And if not, at least you rule it out. And then you're on to carb work... personally I like to rule out the simple things first.
BTW, are you sure you have your timing adjusted correctly? Like I said, simple (and free) things first.
It doesn't matter though - idle speed/mixture adjustments have to do with just that. They have no effect on anything once you're driving down the road. You might get it to idle smoother by adjusting them, but from what you've described that certainly isn't your main problem.
There isn't much you can "tune" on the Nikki. That's not to say there aren't lots of things that can go wrong though lol. Personally, I wouldn't get into a carb rebuild if you don't know anything about it. I'd try to get in touch with someone who knows what they're doing if it comes to that.
Dude, if you're working on your car you had better get yourself a workshop manual!! The Haynes manual is acceptable. You need to know how to do stuff like set your idle, etc, and it's all in there.
I think you should try unbolting your exhaust like I suggested. That could be your problem. And if not, at least you rule it out. And then you're on to carb work... personally I like to rule out the simple things first.
BTW, are you sure you have your timing adjusted correctly? Like I said, simple (and free) things first.
Last edited by SilverRocket; 06-06-02 at 03:16 PM.
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06-06-02, 07:31 PM
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Beat on the catalytics with the handle of a largeish screwdriver and see how much **** you hear rattling around in there.
Better yet, drop em, then grab some earplugs and go for a ride.
Better yet, drop em, then grab some earplugs and go for a ride.
06-08-02, 12:17 AM
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Ok, ATF treatment did nothing, I couldn't find any bad vacuum lines (do I need to disassemble stuff to find hidden ones?), and I can't seem to get the cat bolts loose, so I'm gonna try to rule out other stuff first.
Ok, how do igniters fail? Do they go gradually or completely? Would I get spark if they were bad?
The groaning I mentioned in my first post seems to be coming from the carb, its a loud fluttering, nasaly sound, does this mean anything to anyone?
Thanks again,
Don
Ok, how do igniters fail? Do they go gradually or completely? Would I get spark if they were bad?
The groaning I mentioned in my first post seems to be coming from the carb, its a loud fluttering, nasaly sound, does this mean anything to anyone?
Thanks again,
Don
06-08-02, 12:34 AM
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I guess it might be referred to as a honking sound, but is it a sufficient test to feel for suction at idle? Based on other forum posts this was my method of ruling this out. Are there other ways to determine this is the problem? Also are my problems consistent with a bad shutter valve? Bad Idle...Low Power, but runs smooth to redline.
Thanks,
Don
Thanks,
Don
06-08-02, 01:09 AM
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I wish I could answer that question, but I don't really know much about it and it's never happened to me... what I do remember is that you can open and close the shutter valve with your fingers somehow by moving the mechanism. It's pretty easy. It was a while ago, I can't really remember more than that. Maybe you could try it out to see if it's stuck shut or something like that.
The shutter valve assembly is located on the intake manifold on the driver side of the car. There are 2 lines going to it as I recall - one large (coming from the air filter) and one small. You'll of course need to take off your air filter to mess with it.
Interesting point that Blitz made, that you might be only running on trailing ignition. Might be worth investigation.
And you're sure the timing is set properly?
So you confirmed that the infamous carb-to-manifold large vacuum hose is not the problem?
To get those exhaust bolts loose, soak them in WD-40 overnight. That should hopefully do it. Of course there are other less glamorous ways to get them off...
The shutter valve assembly is located on the intake manifold on the driver side of the car. There are 2 lines going to it as I recall - one large (coming from the air filter) and one small. You'll of course need to take off your air filter to mess with it.
Interesting point that Blitz made, that you might be only running on trailing ignition. Might be worth investigation.
And you're sure the timing is set properly?
So you confirmed that the infamous carb-to-manifold large vacuum hose is not the problem?
To get those exhaust bolts loose, soak them in WD-40 overnight. That should hopefully do it. Of course there are other less glamorous ways to get them off...
06-08-02, 01:32 AM
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Silver Rocket,
You've contributed so much to this, thank you.
I checked the spark, seems to be good, but it was a simple test of checking that it sparks with a plug hooked up to it, sparking into a ground.
I did not check ignition, I will attempt this tomorrow, the vacuum lines and all hoses are intact and in good condition.
The bolts are soaking in Liquid Wrench as we speak...
Fourth day of ownership, wow this has been fun!
You've contributed so much to this, thank you.
I checked the spark, seems to be good, but it was a simple test of checking that it sparks with a plug hooked up to it, sparking into a ground.
I did not check ignition, I will attempt this tomorrow, the vacuum lines and all hoses are intact and in good condition.
The bolts are soaking in Liquid Wrench as we speak...
Fourth day of ownership, wow this has been fun!
06-08-02, 01:48 AM
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No problem, although I wish I had the knowledge to hook you up with some more definitive answers. I've never had to deal with a problem of quite this nature.
Sometimes these cars are frustrating, but don't get discouraged. You could make a breakthrough any minute, and then it will all change. It'll be worth it when you're enjoying that rotary rocket the way it's meant to be!
Hopefully you're gonna find it's a simple problem, like your timing is set all wrong or something like that. Often times people spend lots of time looking for complicated problems when it's really something basic.
It's also possible this is some kind of problem with your carb; I don't know too much about diagnosing Nikki problems though... I only ever had one or two.
Keep us up to date!
Sometimes these cars are frustrating, but don't get discouraged. You could make a breakthrough any minute, and then it will all change. It'll be worth it when you're enjoying that rotary rocket the way it's meant to be!
Hopefully you're gonna find it's a simple problem, like your timing is set all wrong or something like that. Often times people spend lots of time looking for complicated problems when it's really something basic.
It's also possible this is some kind of problem with your carb; I don't know too much about diagnosing Nikki problems though... I only ever had one or two.
Keep us up to date!
06-08-02, 03:46 AM
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Yeah, but normally with a bad fuel pump it will rev fine and then 'hit a wall' when the carb runs out of gas. It's an abrupt and noticeable symptom. With a bad fuel filter it will generally run like **** across the board, plus it will get progressively worse as the car warms up. He says his revs smoothly all the way, just no power.
It still really sounds like a clogged cat, fucked up timing, or carb problem to me.
It still really sounds like a clogged cat, fucked up timing, or carb problem to me.
06-08-02, 08:17 AM
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It could be two seperate problems. You really need to do like everyone says and eliminate the simple possibilities first. Tune the carb. It's not that hard;
When you tune a carb for idle mixture and idle speed, it's easy to get "lost" on the adjustment because the "window" of smooth running is pretty small. It freaks some people out at first...That feeling of, "Oh ****. I broke it."
That's why you need to start adjustments in very small increments, like 1/8 turns.
Both screws are on the drivers side of the carburetor, way down low. The mixture screw in dead center and right on the base of the carb. They come with either a pot-metal, or a plastic screw cap crimped over the screw so people like us don't **** with them. If there is a cap, very carefully pry it off with a flat blade screwdriver. This is a very delicate screw under there, so take your time, and don't use alot of force. I cannot stress this enough!!!!! DON'T USE ALOT OF FORCE!!!
You DO NOT want to bend this screw, or mar the threads. And remember, if you twist the cap twist it back to where it was because you have also probably turned the screw underneath.
The mixture screw is a finely threaded screw with a sharp point on it. The point fits into a hole where air is allowed to pass into the carburetor. Fuel is "dribbling" into the carb at a constant rate during idle. The air is getting sucked into the carburetor, and when you turn this screw, you control the flow of air, and thus your mixture. So turning the screw in closes off air flow, and richens the mixture. Obviously reverse does the reverse.
NEVER turn the screw all the way in with any force, because the throttle body into which it's screwed is cast iron, and the screw is relatively softer metal and will get marred at the tip, renduring it just about useless.
If there was no cap on the screw, then you can be happy...sorta. It means that some previous owner has fucked with your carb, and likely it's just out of tune because they simply did'nt get on the Rotary Forum and ask these guys!
However, don't get too happy, because they might've known what they were doing, and were trying to solve a problem and
tuning did'nt help!
The idle speed screw is a very simple screw in a very hard to reach place! It is nestled deep underneath all the linkage **** on the right side of the carb. I would say it's about at the 2:30 position relative to the mixture screw. (If that helps.)
The front of the screw has a phillips looking top, but is really just two flatblade slots crossed. The back just makes contact with some of the linkage on the primary throttle shaft, and you're basically setting the throttle-stop so that it's partly open. You need a really long flatblade to reach in there. It's easier to turn if you spray WD-40 on the linkage behind where the screw is.
Soooo-Got all that?
First try the mixture screw...try to the left which gives more air...just a little. Wait 5 seconds to see if the car craps out.
If it is worse or does die, go the other way and restart it. You can keep going whichever way is sounding better, slowly, until it starts to have a bad effect. Always bring it back to where it sounds the best. As you make these adjustments, the idle will change...higher is getting better.
If your mixture screw was outta whack, then you've just made your idle jump way up, so it's time to go to the idle screw and turn that so that your idle is at 750-800 RPM.
Then you have to go back to the mixture screw again. Adjust it so it sounds best. Check the idle again. Get it back to 750-800 RPM if necessary.
Go back to the mixture screw and back it off till it starts to sound like ****. Turn it clockwise again, slowly, untill it sounds as great as it can without stumbling. Nice and smooth. Now turn it back 1/4 turn.
You should be all set.
It's VERY important that if you don't experience significant changes in idle speed with mixture screw adjustments, then you may very well have a carburetor leak (air-leak that's called a "vacuum leak") somewhere. It means either one of the hoses that's hooked up to carb has a split and is letting in air, or the gaskets are no longer supple and sealing properly.
Gasoline is a really shitty material. It eats rubber, which is what the needle valves in the carb are made of, and leaves a nasty varnish as a residue. This can coat the inside of everthing, including fuel jets - making them smaller than they are supposed to be. I'm not saying that's your problem, but if the car sat around for any length of time, it could be a contributing factor.
Please tell us the history of the car,
If that pot-metal cap was in place or not,
If the plug wires are hooked up properly or not,
and shine a light thru the fuel filter, located right behind the drivers rear wheel...See if it's got sediment in it.
Get a nice clean air filter, too.
Let us know what happens.
Krazy, this might be the start of a "General Troubleshooters Guide for the RX-7 Newbe" that could end up in the archives.
There are an awful lot of posts like these.
There should be a trouble shooting checklist and a "How to Check..." for carb and ignition all in one thread, and archived.
We need everybody to jump on the "Help a Newbe" bandwagon, and make a bitchin-long thread that covers it all!
When you tune a carb for idle mixture and idle speed, it's easy to get "lost" on the adjustment because the "window" of smooth running is pretty small. It freaks some people out at first...That feeling of, "Oh ****. I broke it."
That's why you need to start adjustments in very small increments, like 1/8 turns.
Both screws are on the drivers side of the carburetor, way down low. The mixture screw in dead center and right on the base of the carb. They come with either a pot-metal, or a plastic screw cap crimped over the screw so people like us don't **** with them. If there is a cap, very carefully pry it off with a flat blade screwdriver. This is a very delicate screw under there, so take your time, and don't use alot of force. I cannot stress this enough!!!!! DON'T USE ALOT OF FORCE!!!
You DO NOT want to bend this screw, or mar the threads. And remember, if you twist the cap twist it back to where it was because you have also probably turned the screw underneath.
The mixture screw is a finely threaded screw with a sharp point on it. The point fits into a hole where air is allowed to pass into the carburetor. Fuel is "dribbling" into the carb at a constant rate during idle. The air is getting sucked into the carburetor, and when you turn this screw, you control the flow of air, and thus your mixture. So turning the screw in closes off air flow, and richens the mixture. Obviously reverse does the reverse.
NEVER turn the screw all the way in with any force, because the throttle body into which it's screwed is cast iron, and the screw is relatively softer metal and will get marred at the tip, renduring it just about useless.
If there was no cap on the screw, then you can be happy...sorta. It means that some previous owner has fucked with your carb, and likely it's just out of tune because they simply did'nt get on the Rotary Forum and ask these guys!
However, don't get too happy, because they might've known what they were doing, and were trying to solve a problem and
tuning did'nt help!
The idle speed screw is a very simple screw in a very hard to reach place! It is nestled deep underneath all the linkage **** on the right side of the carb. I would say it's about at the 2:30 position relative to the mixture screw. (If that helps.)
The front of the screw has a phillips looking top, but is really just two flatblade slots crossed. The back just makes contact with some of the linkage on the primary throttle shaft, and you're basically setting the throttle-stop so that it's partly open. You need a really long flatblade to reach in there. It's easier to turn if you spray WD-40 on the linkage behind where the screw is.
Soooo-Got all that?
First try the mixture screw...try to the left which gives more air...just a little. Wait 5 seconds to see if the car craps out.
If it is worse or does die, go the other way and restart it. You can keep going whichever way is sounding better, slowly, until it starts to have a bad effect. Always bring it back to where it sounds the best. As you make these adjustments, the idle will change...higher is getting better.
If your mixture screw was outta whack, then you've just made your idle jump way up, so it's time to go to the idle screw and turn that so that your idle is at 750-800 RPM.
Then you have to go back to the mixture screw again. Adjust it so it sounds best. Check the idle again. Get it back to 750-800 RPM if necessary.
Go back to the mixture screw and back it off till it starts to sound like ****. Turn it clockwise again, slowly, untill it sounds as great as it can without stumbling. Nice and smooth. Now turn it back 1/4 turn.
You should be all set.
It's VERY important that if you don't experience significant changes in idle speed with mixture screw adjustments, then you may very well have a carburetor leak (air-leak that's called a "vacuum leak") somewhere. It means either one of the hoses that's hooked up to carb has a split and is letting in air, or the gaskets are no longer supple and sealing properly.
Gasoline is a really shitty material. It eats rubber, which is what the needle valves in the carb are made of, and leaves a nasty varnish as a residue. This can coat the inside of everthing, including fuel jets - making them smaller than they are supposed to be. I'm not saying that's your problem, but if the car sat around for any length of time, it could be a contributing factor.
Please tell us the history of the car,
If that pot-metal cap was in place or not,
If the plug wires are hooked up properly or not,
and shine a light thru the fuel filter, located right behind the drivers rear wheel...See if it's got sediment in it.
Get a nice clean air filter, too.
Let us know what happens.
Krazy, this might be the start of a "General Troubleshooters Guide for the RX-7 Newbe" that could end up in the archives.
There are an awful lot of posts like these.
There should be a trouble shooting checklist and a "How to Check..." for carb and ignition all in one thread, and archived.
We need everybody to jump on the "Help a Newbe" bandwagon, and make a bitchin-long thread that covers it all!
Last edited by Sterling; 06-08-02 at 08:34 AM.
06-08-02, 01:16 PM
#19
sterling, the carb master. i would check the cat and hose first, then dig into tuning the carb. i wouldn't think fuel delivery, as you wouldn't pull to redline that easy. basically car is running strong, then fuel scarces and bam it stutters. then your on the side of the road............
may the force be with you young jedi
may the force be with you young jedi
06-09-02, 08:19 AM
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nice write up sterling you must have callus on your fingers. Now if it was my car I would first do the idle then the carb adjustment. When I pull my choke and start it I almost immediately have to push the choke in 1/2 way to bring the rpms down to around 2000-2500 once it ckicks off I am around 1000 but also with the extra advance I have thats where it would be over the stock setting. Once all accessories are on lights etc. probably 850-900. Well my fingers hurt now so do the idle 1st then adjust mixture.
06-09-02, 06:24 PM
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Hi Don,
From another new owner, well not really my mother owns it I just work on it. I'm use to piston engines but I think the theory that I am bringing up may have merit. If you have a partial clog in catalytic converter possibly due to presilencer coming apart then when the exhaust should be leaving the chamber it doesn't get totally out. This will dump back the intake tract on the intake valve opening. I haven't had this problem in the past with piston engines but did have an exhaust rocker break once and it blasted exhaust gases back up the intake manifold made bad noise and felt like someone was hammering the crank at low RPM. Maybe some of the rotary experts can rule out the clogged cat based on other information. I just got back from my mothers house with my upcoming worklist for her car. So far the information provided on this forum has been extremely helpful. Thanks to all for making this a great forum.
Don
From another new owner, well not really my mother owns it I just work on it. I'm use to piston engines but I think the theory that I am bringing up may have merit. If you have a partial clog in catalytic converter possibly due to presilencer coming apart then when the exhaust should be leaving the chamber it doesn't get totally out. This will dump back the intake tract on the intake valve opening. I haven't had this problem in the past with piston engines but did have an exhaust rocker break once and it blasted exhaust gases back up the intake manifold made bad noise and felt like someone was hammering the crank at low RPM. Maybe some of the rotary experts can rule out the clogged cat based on other information. I just got back from my mothers house with my upcoming worklist for her car. So far the information provided on this forum has been extremely helpful. Thanks to all for making this a great forum.
Don
06-11-02, 10:45 PM
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You guys are awesome! Thanks for all the input! What's up with the site lately though, its been down the last few times I checked for replies.
Here's the current situation:
The cat is off with a "test pipe" in place, the car is faster, but I dont think that was the root of all evil as it still cannot idle well on its own, but the car is faster... woo hoo!
After messing with the carburetor and having no idea, I broke down and took it to my mechanic, he confirmed that the carb just needed some tuning... he called within a few hours and said he got it alot better, but still had some room for improvement and will keep me informed.
Thank you all again, I hope I can return the favor, and I will keep ya'll informed.
Don
Here's the current situation:
The cat is off with a "test pipe" in place, the car is faster, but I dont think that was the root of all evil as it still cannot idle well on its own, but the car is faster... woo hoo!
After messing with the carburetor and having no idea, I broke down and took it to my mechanic, he confirmed that the carb just needed some tuning... he called within a few hours and said he got it alot better, but still had some room for improvement and will keep me informed.
Thank you all again, I hope I can return the favor, and I will keep ya'll informed.
Don
