300 Horse goal on a 12A
01-20-06, 11:26 PM
#27
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just do what you can to the stock 12a as is. (carb, exhaust, etc...) as this will get you to understand the car more, especially with the hassle of tuning a carb. you need to get down and dirty in there and see what works and what doesn't. this is the best way to learn what will be better down the road when you start getting in to real power.
01-21-06, 04:59 AM
#28
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Kim - these are the joys of owning a welder, and having a few metalworking tools (angle grinder, sabresaw, worktop mounted vice, and a benchtop mounted grinder)
anything's possible if you dont mind spending a bit of time thinking it over!
and I STILL think that an SU carb is the way forwards - you can adjust the mixture with only a screwdriver, and a bit of emery paper (or about $10 for a new needle if you dont want to have to modify the existing one)
If anyone wants to convert - there's plenty of info online on how to tune SU carbs. Some are complete rubbish though, and they try to tell you to swap the dashpot spring for another one (REALLY not needed!)
plus - there's a turbo verison available, which is sealed, and can cope with over 20psi of boost (like my friends one does!)
anything's possible if you dont mind spending a bit of time thinking it over!
and I STILL think that an SU carb is the way forwards - you can adjust the mixture with only a screwdriver, and a bit of emery paper (or about $10 for a new needle if you dont want to have to modify the existing one)
If anyone wants to convert - there's plenty of info online on how to tune SU carbs. Some are complete rubbish though, and they try to tell you to swap the dashpot spring for another one (REALLY not needed!)
plus - there's a turbo verison available, which is sealed, and can cope with over 20psi of boost (like my friends one does!)
01-22-06, 03:25 AM
#30
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in essence - not really
1) bigger/better carb
2) bigger/better inlet (including some form of porting)
3) bigger/better exhaust (including headers + some porting)
and that's pretty much all there is to N/A tuning!
1) bigger/better carb
2) bigger/better inlet (including some form of porting)
3) bigger/better exhaust (including headers + some porting)
and that's pretty much all there is to N/A tuning!
01-23-06, 08:31 PM
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Ok heres another update -
FBII has given me a new mission in life, heres what Im going to do. Im going to rebuild my 12A with racing components and an extemded port with a 60-1 turbo. At about 15 or more PSI this could hopefully hit 400HP and have NO LAG after 2000rpm.
Today I bought a Holley 650 with vacuum secondaries, a new hood to cut for a chevy cowl induction scoop, and 4 lowering springs for just $150!! For now that is. I may have to get some higher rate springs at the stock length to fit 16 to 18 " rims, Im thinking 215/35zr16 - 18 would be a great way to go for wheels.
My new goal is to be able to hit high speeds, like 160+ mph Vroooooooooooooooooooommmmm
Ill need some great body kit for that though!!
If I can find an intake manifold for my Holley (hopefully with an extended port) then bolting a 60-1 turbo up to the Holley.. :-D
FBII has given me a new mission in life, heres what Im going to do. Im going to rebuild my 12A with racing components and an extemded port with a 60-1 turbo. At about 15 or more PSI this could hopefully hit 400HP and have NO LAG after 2000rpm.
Today I bought a Holley 650 with vacuum secondaries, a new hood to cut for a chevy cowl induction scoop, and 4 lowering springs for just $150!! For now that is. I may have to get some higher rate springs at the stock length to fit 16 to 18 " rims, Im thinking 215/35zr16 - 18 would be a great way to go for wheels.
My new goal is to be able to hit high speeds, like 160+ mph Vroooooooooooooooooooommmmm
Ill need some great body kit for that though!!
If I can find an intake manifold for my Holley (hopefully with an extended port) then bolting a 60-1 turbo up to the Holley.. :-D
01-23-06, 09:43 PM
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Look what I found
1979 198?+
Ratios: 1st 3.674 3.622
2nd 2.217 2.186
3rd 1.432 1.419
4th 1.000 1.000
5th 0.825 0.758 SE: 0.807
Reverse 3.542 3.493
AND
RX7 Stock Rear Axle Ratios
Year/Model Ratio Year/Model Ratio
79-85 3.909 86-88 Automatic 3.909
83-84 12a 3.933 89-92 Turbo 4.10
84-85 13b GSLSE 4.076 89-92 Non-Turbo/Non LSD 4.10
85 12a 3.909 89-92 Non-Turbo Viscous LSD 4.30
86-88 5-speed
Turbo & Non Turbo 4.10 93-95 Manual Trans 4.10
93-95 Automatic 3.909
1979 198?+
Ratios: 1st 3.674 3.622
2nd 2.217 2.186
3rd 1.432 1.419
4th 1.000 1.000
5th 0.825 0.758 SE: 0.807
Reverse 3.542 3.493
AND
RX7 Stock Rear Axle Ratios
Year/Model Ratio Year/Model Ratio
79-85 3.909 86-88 Automatic 3.909
83-84 12a 3.933 89-92 Turbo 4.10
84-85 13b GSLSE 4.076 89-92 Non-Turbo/Non LSD 4.10
85 12a 3.909 89-92 Non-Turbo Viscous LSD 4.30
86-88 5-speed
Turbo & Non Turbo 4.10 93-95 Manual Trans 4.10
93-95 Automatic 3.909
01-23-06, 09:54 PM
#34
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dood take a look at the 12a turbo on www.rotaryshack.com that thing is pure SEX
01-26-06, 01:28 AM
#36
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Is 300hp from a 12A realistic?
The works 12A with PP in 1980 could only put out 280-300 hp. So it can be done with a lot of money and short engine life if you keep to NA.
Adding a turbo and efi will get you 300hp. However remember a 13BT in stock trim only gives you 180-250hp. It is possible to upgrade everything to give you a twice that but the cost does up geometrically as does fuel consumption and maintenance costs.
As far as the 12A is concerned, the best route is get a Jsec12AT, rebuild, add a large turbo and two extra injectors. Fit a TII tranny, 13B rear end, heavy duty clutgh, large FMIC. Add the usual bolt-on upgrades to the exhaust and fuel systems, plus suspension, wheels, tires and brakes. For a street car with noise and emmission limitations you can get a reliable car with 300 hp at 12 lbs boost. This is what I have, anything more creates handling problems, the front gets too light above 150mph, and the backend develops a life of its own. You can end up drifting in normal traffic.Fuel consumption would be around 10mpg at 300hp falling to 5mpg at 400hp- assuming you use the power available!. An indication of cost would be $12-15,000. for a well prepared 300hp car.
A good reflection of the way costs go up with power is to look at the different versions of the Mitsubisih Lancer. The top 'off the floor; version produces 400hp which for a 2 litre 4door sedan is real performance. Some rice products are great cars, but I still happy with my 20 year old rotary inspite of its old technology.
The works 12A with PP in 1980 could only put out 280-300 hp. So it can be done with a lot of money and short engine life if you keep to NA.
Adding a turbo and efi will get you 300hp. However remember a 13BT in stock trim only gives you 180-250hp. It is possible to upgrade everything to give you a twice that but the cost does up geometrically as does fuel consumption and maintenance costs.
As far as the 12A is concerned, the best route is get a Jsec12AT, rebuild, add a large turbo and two extra injectors. Fit a TII tranny, 13B rear end, heavy duty clutgh, large FMIC. Add the usual bolt-on upgrades to the exhaust and fuel systems, plus suspension, wheels, tires and brakes. For a street car with noise and emmission limitations you can get a reliable car with 300 hp at 12 lbs boost. This is what I have, anything more creates handling problems, the front gets too light above 150mph, and the backend develops a life of its own. You can end up drifting in normal traffic.Fuel consumption would be around 10mpg at 300hp falling to 5mpg at 400hp- assuming you use the power available!. An indication of cost would be $12-15,000. for a well prepared 300hp car.
A good reflection of the way costs go up with power is to look at the different versions of the Mitsubisih Lancer. The top 'off the floor; version produces 400hp which for a 2 litre 4door sedan is real performance. Some rice products are great cars, but I still happy with my 20 year old rotary inspite of its old technology.
02-03-06, 05:49 AM
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Instead of a Turbo, I was wondering if anyone has tried bolting up a Paxton Procharger to their rotaries? I havent heard anything about that...
I can think that it would be better for a couple of reasons. 1)No Lag what so ever and 2)a little more power than a turbo@the same psi because there would be nothing restricting the exhaust gas flow (such as a turbine wheel)
Ill bet you could also hook up an intercooler to the procharger as well...
Why hasnt anyone tried this yet?
Only thing I can think of is that it might not boost as much as a turbo? But if itll boost 15-20PSI that would be perfect!
I can think that it would be better for a couple of reasons. 1)No Lag what so ever and 2)a little more power than a turbo@the same psi because there would be nothing restricting the exhaust gas flow (such as a turbine wheel)
Ill bet you could also hook up an intercooler to the procharger as well...
Why hasnt anyone tried this yet?
Only thing I can think of is that it might not boost as much as a turbo? But if itll boost 15-20PSI that would be perfect!
02-03-06, 07:11 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by slayerx7
Instead of a Turbo, I was wondering if anyone has tried bolting up a Paxton Procharger to their rotaries? I havent heard anything about that...
I can think that it would be better for a couple of reasons. 1)No Lag what so ever and 2)a little more power than a turbo@the same psi because there would be nothing restricting the exhaust gas flow (such as a turbine wheel)
Ill bet you could also hook up an intercooler to the procharger as well...
Why hasnt anyone tried this yet?
Only thing I can think of is that it might not boost as much as a turbo? But if itll boost 15-20PSI that would be perfect!
I can think that it would be better for a couple of reasons. 1)No Lag what so ever and 2)a little more power than a turbo@the same psi because there would be nothing restricting the exhaust gas flow (such as a turbine wheel)
Ill bet you could also hook up an intercooler to the procharger as well...
Why hasnt anyone tried this yet?
Only thing I can think of is that it might not boost as much as a turbo? But if itll boost 15-20PSI that would be perfect!
02-03-06, 08:03 AM
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prochargers don't have the amazing "boost off idle" response that eaton style's do. in fact, an ATI procharger is basically a belt driven turbo. it DOES LAG! see it all the time on the mustangs here. they're great tho, for them, because you can run an intercooler and can get some massive sized compressors and crank the boost. still not as efficient as a turbo lol. they build boost based on rpm pretty much. if you want 15psi from one, you may not see it till you're about to let out. for the weight and how complex it is to set up... it's just not worth it. Plus, they're expensive as nawlz
02-03-06, 02:11 PM
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Ok, Maybe the procharger isnt the miracle device afterall heheh
Im aware that boost is only caused by resistance.... such as if you had say 10 psi because you have a small port, the port is causing most of that boost because of its restrictions... now if the port was say twice as large, youd only be flowing 5lbs of boost, but have 2x the volume of air! - much better. now if you had the same 10psi with 2x the air... oooooh yeahhhhh! So I was thinking having 15 or more lbs of boost with an extended port should really haul some ***!
It didnt seem like the prochargers were all that difficut, and I didnt think they would be that heavy, maybe the same weight as a turbo at worst. But if theyre not as efficient, and more expensive, those are 2 major points in favor of a turbo. But if say an Eaton Procharger has LESS lag than any turbo, and can flow the same amount of air with the same boost for the intake, then it might be worth looking into further correct?
Ill also admit though, I havent learned to read a turbo chart yet, looks like that may take about a half or full hour to understand?
Well Im off to Pull my tranny, put in the racing clutch, pop out the sleeves in the exhaust ports (I was told you can pop them right out) and install a new cd player w/ awesome speakers
Thanks again for all the info!! keep it coming!
Im aware that boost is only caused by resistance.... such as if you had say 10 psi because you have a small port, the port is causing most of that boost because of its restrictions... now if the port was say twice as large, youd only be flowing 5lbs of boost, but have 2x the volume of air! - much better. now if you had the same 10psi with 2x the air... oooooh yeahhhhh! So I was thinking having 15 or more lbs of boost with an extended port should really haul some ***!
It didnt seem like the prochargers were all that difficut, and I didnt think they would be that heavy, maybe the same weight as a turbo at worst. But if theyre not as efficient, and more expensive, those are 2 major points in favor of a turbo. But if say an Eaton Procharger has LESS lag than any turbo, and can flow the same amount of air with the same boost for the intake, then it might be worth looking into further correct?
Ill also admit though, I havent learned to read a turbo chart yet, looks like that may take about a half or full hour to understand?
Well Im off to Pull my tranny, put in the racing clutch, pop out the sleeves in the exhaust ports (I was told you can pop them right out) and install a new cd player w/ awesome speakers
Thanks again for all the info!! keep it coming!
02-07-06, 11:13 PM
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Ok, so those sleeves dont just pop out.. I left them in. Got the new clutch in much quicker! So after I replace my tranny, Ill start the job for horsepower. So far heres my to do list:
650 Holley
RB Header (till I can find an SDJ)
Lowering springs (RB I think)
The quest for HP:
Extendport or Streetport, what do you think?
a 60-1 Turbo
Large intercooler
3mm racing Apex seals
New side housing seals!!
2nd gen water & oil pumps
A fuel pump to handle the massive holley
Does anyone know if theres a turbo header for rotary? Or will it bolt to the header itself? Ive heard its best if the turbo is as close as possible to the exhaust port
much quicker! So after I replace my tranny, Ill start the job for horsepower. So far heres my to do list:650 Holley
RB Header (till I can find an SDJ)
Lowering springs (RB I think)
The quest for HP:
Extendport or Streetport, what do you think?
a 60-1 Turbo
Large intercooler
3mm racing Apex seals
New side housing seals!!
2nd gen water & oil pumps
A fuel pump to handle the massive holley
Does anyone know if theres a turbo header for rotary? Or will it bolt to the header itself? Ive heard its best if the turbo is as close as possible to the exhaust port
02-08-06, 08:08 AM
#43
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Rene at RX3mist.com can fab you up a equal length turbo manifold. I highly reccomend it, I got mine off of FB II.....
2nd gen oil pump isn't really necessay, and I don't think it will work anyway. If you want to upgrade, you can go with a GSL-SE unit, but a better idea would be to get a 2nd gen oil cooler and front mount it.
If your seriously considering going turbo, give Robert at Rotaryshack.com a call, he can give you all the details you need about turbo'ng your 12A, and whatever power goals you intend to reach. Also, teh archives has a write-up on turbo 12A stuff, serach for FB II's threads, and there are also a BUNCH of others guys here who can give you info. about turbo 12A stuff.
2nd gen oil pump isn't really necessay, and I don't think it will work anyway. If you want to upgrade, you can go with a GSL-SE unit, but a better idea would be to get a 2nd gen oil cooler and front mount it.
If your seriously considering going turbo, give Robert at Rotaryshack.com a call, he can give you all the details you need about turbo'ng your 12A, and whatever power goals you intend to reach. Also, teh archives has a write-up on turbo 12A stuff, serach for FB II's threads, and there are also a BUNCH of others guys here who can give you info. about turbo 12A stuff.
02-14-06, 01:00 AM
#44
wow man, this reminds me of me when i was new to rotaries, you just read every little thing you can find on the internet and pick out all the best or whatever you know?
turbo setups are awesome and can be reliable. I am craving a built N/A like you but for
some other reasons, and lots of thought.
When you say 300hp 12a goal is realistic, no it's doable, not realistic. take lots of money and the right people building and tuning your motor. You might be able to skimp but it'll bite you in the butt, which is why when my turbo motor blew I'm spending more than $5k revamping the motor, cooling, intercooler and lots of nice stuff to support. I've been doing the same thing you're doing and just asking what works best and why cause I wanted to know. I learned more and more and its taken a while to realize how stupid I was before. Don't just rush into this with just barely enough money, you'll end up selling your 1/2 finished project car.
think it through. i like to get all the supporting parts that you can run w/ both cars. cooling, gauges, clutchs.
im done blabbing
-Ben Martin
turbo setups are awesome and can be reliable. I am craving a built N/A like you but for
some other reasons, and lots of thought.
When you say 300hp 12a goal is realistic, no it's doable, not realistic. take lots of money and the right people building and tuning your motor. You might be able to skimp but it'll bite you in the butt, which is why when my turbo motor blew I'm spending more than $5k revamping the motor, cooling, intercooler and lots of nice stuff to support. I've been doing the same thing you're doing and just asking what works best and why cause I wanted to know. I learned more and more and its taken a while to realize how stupid I was before. Don't just rush into this with just barely enough money, you'll end up selling your 1/2 finished project car.
think it through. i like to get all the supporting parts that you can run w/ both cars. cooling, gauges, clutchs.
im done blabbing
-Ben Martin
02-24-06, 01:17 PM
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Ive decided to save up a little more before attempting anything too major, probally something I wouldnt have done before coming to this forum!
I put my lowering springs in the front, and just installed my stereo That was tough, cause someone had done something to it before, so none of the wires were what the wiring diagram specified... e.g. red wire wasnt doing a thing, but the blue/green stripe was coming from the acc switch. Just glad I had a multimeter!
My car backfired REALLY loudly on the way to work the other day, and when I got the the Idle dropped from its usual 850 rpm to fluctuating between 3 & 400 rpms.. I was starting to think what could have happened, and fearing the worst, thought it may have put a hole in one of thr rotors.... but it acceleraties just fine over 1000 rpm, and when its at at 100% operating temperature, itll idle normal. However itll do the 3-400 rpm thing like up till 99% warmend up (operating temperature) so maybe its a colling issue? Also I realized, this is the 1st time I used regular gas, when Ive been using premium since I got the car in December.
Im basically just waiting til it or some seals blow so I can tear it down and port it then rebuilt it
I put my lowering springs in the front, and just installed my stereo
That was tough, cause someone had done something to it before, so none of the wires were what the wiring diagram specified... e.g. red wire wasnt doing a thing, but the blue/green stripe was coming from the acc switch. Just glad I had a multimeter!My car backfired REALLY loudly on the way to work the other day, and when I got the the Idle dropped from its usual 850 rpm to fluctuating between 3 & 400 rpms.. I was starting to think what could have happened, and fearing the worst, thought it may have put a hole in one of thr rotors.... but it acceleraties just fine over 1000 rpm, and when its at at 100% operating temperature, itll idle normal. However itll do the 3-400 rpm thing like up till 99% warmend up (operating temperature) so maybe its a colling issue? Also I realized, this is the 1st time I used regular gas, when Ive been using premium since I got the car in December.
Im basically just waiting til it or some seals blow so I can tear it down and port it then rebuilt it
03-08-06, 08:22 PM
#47
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Ok seems like Im the only one posting anymore, but hey why not. I just got my manifold and Holley, Im excited for my next day off to install it. I found an SDJ header, for $450 on ebay, brand new, killer deal eh? I also am getting a Streetported engine with carbon seals thats pretty new. By the way does anyone know someone who builds race 12A's in Boston? Apparantly thats who this motor came from.
Its probally been covered many times, and I will get my car dyno'd but does anyone know howmuch horsepower to expect from:
mild / large streetport
SDJ header
465cfm Holley intake
and a K&N filter
Im hoping for 200hp, and that should be good enough for a 13.5 1/4 mi. Im sure like 165hp is more realistic, but does anyone think 200 is out of reason?
Thanks
Its probally been covered many times, and I will get my car dyno'd but does anyone know howmuch horsepower to expect from:
mild / large streetport
SDJ header
465cfm Holley intake
and a K&N filter
Im hoping for 200hp, and that should be good enough for a 13.5 1/4 mi. Im sure like 165hp is more realistic, but does anyone think 200 is out of reason?
Thanks
03-09-06, 04:26 AM
#48
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I have to admit, I've got zero idea on how much BHP it should make - but it should be satisfying enough for ya
But am I the only person on here, who thinks that $450 for a pair of bent tubes is close to extortionate?
But am I the only person on here, who thinks that $450 for a pair of bent tubes is close to extortionate?
03-09-06, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by slayerx7
Its probally been covered many times, and I will get my car dyno'd but does anyone know howmuch horsepower to expect from:
mild / large streetport, SDJ header, 465cfm Holley intake and a K&N filter
Im hoping for 200hp, and that should be good enough for a 13.5 1/4 mi. Im sure like 165hp is more realistic, but does anyone think 200 is out of reason?
mild / large streetport, SDJ header, 465cfm Holley intake and a K&N filter
Im hoping for 200hp, and that should be good enough for a 13.5 1/4 mi. Im sure like 165hp is more realistic, but does anyone think 200 is out of reason?
03-09-06, 11:45 PM
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I should have specified between, BHP and RWHP
200BHP should be about 155 give or take RWHP, which seems ok to expect
I may be putting in the streetport motor as soon as tomorrow, If anyone at all knows, What are some precaautions to take when installing a Holley intake? Ive been swamped for time, so any help is appriciated!!!
Such as, if this motors timing is all out of whack, is it hard to time a rotary? I have the service manual, but thats all in reference to stock ports. Are there any tricks to timing a streetported motor?
It may be already perfectly set up, but I need to plan for the worse, as Ill have only 3days to get it running after I swap engines. Plus the more you know about engines the better!
Thanks!
200BHP should be about 155 give or take RWHP, which seems ok to expect
I may be putting in the streetport motor as soon as tomorrow, If anyone at all knows, What are some precaautions to take when installing a Holley intake? Ive been swamped for time, so any help is appriciated!!!
Such as, if this motors timing is all out of whack, is it hard to time a rotary? I have the service manual, but thats all in reference to stock ports. Are there any tricks to timing a streetported motor?
It may be already perfectly set up, but I need to plan for the worse, as Ill have only 3days to get it running after I swap engines. Plus the more you know about engines the better!
Thanks!