one more thing ... i hope the mods read this and will listen my plea to make a sticky out of moremazda's 12A turbo write-up!

 

http://www.hitman.hm/12AT-hints.htm

 

I know I was one who criticized his lack of using the search function, but here is some data to go toward the original question. I have been researching the topic of boosting N/A rotors for my supercharger project. I found a good turbo motor to use, but if you look at the following compression ratios for the rotary engines since 1974, you will not see much change in compression.

Here is the rotor compression ratios.

Engine year compression
12A 76-85 9.44
13B 74-78 9.25
13B 84-85 9.45
13B N/A 86-88 9.44
13BT 86-88 8.54
13B N/A 89-92 9.74
13BT 89-92 9.04
13BTwin Turbo 93-95 9.04

So you can see there has been little change in compression between normal aspiration rotors and turbo rotors. The difference in going fast and going up in flames will be proper tuning and supplying the proper amount of fuel to the motor throughout the operating RPM range. There are stand alone fuel management computers that will monitor the boost pressure and raise the fuel pressure and volume to keep the mixture correct. You will need a front mounted intercooler to cool the compressed air. Compressed air is hot. You can fit more cold air into a given volume than you can hot air. More air needs more fuel. More fuel = power.
Tuning.

 

It's not a sticky, but it's been in the 1st gen archive for a while now.

 

if you are serious about building a high boost, high h/p 12a turbo then look no further...... www. rotaryshack.com i have several reliable 12at motors making high h/p #s!!! p.s. reliable too!!

 

Thank you! You spelled it out for everybody. This is the reason I always tell everybody you don't need a TII 13B, you can use an N/A one, or a stock 12A as well.

Tuning is the key.

HOWEVER, at higher HP (400+) numbers, the Turbo designed engines, do have some improvements over their N/A counterparts which would be more beneficial.

Thicker plates around the dowels, increased oil injection, higher oil pump ressures.. etc...

 

but they dont get a post coutn with a PM!!!

 

Yeah-That's what it does come down to, Pedy- idd'nt it!

 

god knows thats the only reason im posting right now..

 

yeah ... i saw it in the archive, but i was wondering if they'd do it as a sticky as well (like they did the SE -> T2 swap thread) ... but then again, the T2 swap thread is in both places, and people still ask about swaping turbo 13B's, so i guess it probably doesn't matter if moremazda's thread isn't sticky as well, eh?

 

I am the other one that is working on this Rx7. we both have a pretty good idea about what we need to do to get this car setup and running, we are just looking for all the new info that we need that is difrent from what would be used to on a piston engine.

What my friend was wondering is what parts can he upgrade/us that will would alow for high boost/safer boosting that goes into the block. with it being well tuned
like difrent kinds of apex seals?
difrent kinds of rotors-
-high/low compression?
-difrent metals?
-oil porting(lubicating upgrads)?
porting jobs that are good for boosted engines?
stronger engine bolts?
and what do you all recomend??

thats all i can think of at the moment, i know there is the wonderful search, but alas i have tried it and i imagine that the info that we are looking for is there, but would not be found in just one post but in many. and i imagin that in the process of searching we would find plenty of this threads like this were nothing is truly gained. thanks


Joe

 

have you even tried to take a gander at page 1 of THIS thread?
what more info are you expecting to get other than what was provided?

 

Never mind, i went though all the info on the first page, and all the linked treads that were on it. I did not find any direct info on what i am asking. and personal diabolical1 you are a jack ***. from here on out i am going it alone, as i wouldnt want to take any of your dumb *** information about searching to find what your looking for BS. I know that the information is there, its just a matter of searching.....finding a thread that sounds some what close to what your looking for...skiming the tread to try and find the info your looking for...not finding it and and trying another thread and the it repeats it self. its a wast of time for me. and if you taking the time to write and say search (because you dont know the answer to what i am asking) and say you dont want to wast your time, then dont replay and save your time.

 

and i ask the admin to close/lock this thread, and delete my user. thanks

 

okay ... i hope the other guys here can forgive me for my coming outburst. i know this should be beneath me (especially at my age), and i also know it's not worth getting banned over these immature know-nothings that can't look past whatever lore they've read on rotaries. however, i'm already in a bad mood as it is and this crap has gone on far enough. this bitch needs to get checked!
then you're ******* illiterate! everything that you (and your alter ego robert99v6 or whatever!) asked is right there! nimrod said it! i said it! nanaimorx-7 said it! project84 said it! directfreak said it! the list goes on ...

WHAT MORE ARE YOU LOOKING FOR????? either you have not asked it, or you don't know what you're talking about ... it's that simple!

see this? i like the part where he says, "I know that the information is there, its just a matter of searching ..."

then he says ... "i couldn't find it" ... then he calls ME the jackass!

again ... what info are you looking for? if you're looking for info on how to build a reliable rotary engine (which a 12A is ...) then you're either not reading right, or you need to go to some books and return to the board when you've grown a little in understanding!
i mean ... what part of streetport, improve the oiling system, improve cooling then add fuel and tuning do you not understand? the tension bolts occasionally break, but i covered how to buy yourself some cheap insurance for them in the mazdarati thread. in fact, the details of building have been covered extensively in the thread started by mazdarati ... and it was GIVEN to you and your buddy on page 1.

if you guys choose not to believe that that's all there is to it, then there's nothing we can do about that.

oh ... and one more thing ... the reason why threads keep saying the same thing over and over and over ... it's because of people like you and your friend getting the guys to repeat themselves over and over ... the answers don't change because they are correct ... the engines have proven that they don't REQUIRE the special metals and other **** that you seem to believe they do. they've proven it time and time over ... so if you don't believe it ... i don't know what to tell ya' ...

FINALLY ... just for a sec ... let's return to your thinking i'm a jackass ... THAT and a buck-fifty will get me a ride on the 2 train! the two pages of this thread show that myself and the others have patience for newbies ... so don't try to make it look we're being mean to you or your friend.

i've seen only one other thread on the Gen I forum turn into childish **** like this (maybe there were others, but i'm relatively new here, so i don't know) but i can't stand it when things get like this! all that sticks-n-stones, sour grapes, 2nd grade **** doesn't belong here ... i believe it was your "friend" that cast the first stone and then said that this is a forum (and not a library) ... then i believe project84 correctly retorted and said it is also a library ...
well yes, it's a forum and it IS a library ... so be an adult and respect the rules and shut the **** up!!!!! you don't like it ... my name is Jason, so you know who said it! want my address, then it's a "PM" away ... want beef? we can settle it ....

TO THE OTHER GUYS (whom I respect) - i'm sorry for this juvenile rant, but frankly, i'm just sick of these two being babies and not just asking to be spoon-fed, but outright DEMANDING, and then disrespecting me and the rest of the crew when they're denied.

1

 

Oh...You girls still at it, huh?

Diabolical, you raise great points.
jr240sx, you're new here, and get the benifit of my doubt, and a free "Ooops" pass- even if you needed it.
We need new blood in here- guys that are willing to take on the challanges of forcing 20 psi into their 12A. I like it, and it'll be you answering some new guys question in the future.
Hopefully, you won't be calling them morons for asking those questions.

Diabolical, you don't represent me on this one. You handled it your way...that's fine. But to keep on spending your time and energy on this makes you look foolish.

You could've answered every single question jr240sx had by now.

...And what the hell are you snickering at, jr240sx? You could've gotten all the research done and had all the answers by now if you had spent the time searching instead of dickin' around with this lame-*** thread.

Soooo; Who wants to teach, and who wants to learn?
My guess is niether, and that you both got what you really wanted from this thread.

 

You really are in a crappy mood, huh?

I am with Diabolical on this. The info was given, in detail - yet the N00B is lazy and doesn't want to read.

The N00B's better off just paying somebody to boost his Titanium reinforced, carbon fiber rotary 12A engine for him.

It's not that who wants to teach, it's whose willing to learn? From the stupid responses the newbie gave, obviously he isn't willing to learn.

There's plenty of other people here who do appreciate good advice, - I am one of them.

 

I was going to come back here and edit out all my links before these idiots actually went and read them. I spent 30-45 minutes searching and reading those threads, and composing the post....then he comes back and calls US jackasses !!! WTF ! I have more but diabolical1 pretty much covered my feelings on this crap.
1. Don't change the ports
2. Stock internal everything (turbo's are a wate of time)
3. 400 shot of NOS ( stock motors can take this all day long)
4. Go run your 12 second 1/4 mile (make sure you're shifting at 10 G's, that's were the secret power of stock ports are)
5. Don't forget to send us the video.

 

Sterling, i agree with you. it does make me start to look foolish ... i won't try to explain or make excuses on this. it just made me mad, that's all!

maybe i'm the retard, and i can't see what they're asking. but i mean, short of writing a step by step buildup of a motor ... i can't see what the problem is. that would be great, but despite the fact that i've built a few motors now, i'd still have to refer to a manual if i was going to do anything other than actually do it. i mean, if i had to type it, i'd need to refer to something to get the steps ... actually doing it is just something that i guess i take for granted now.

look, i'm not above learning. i am always for learning, and i'm fully in touch with the fact that i DO NOT know everything, and that sometimes, my way is not even the best! i'm one with all that ... really.

my problem is that they just keep saying that they're not finding what they're looking for ... then they make a list, and when i look at it, it's stuff that are covered in the threads provided.

for example ...
every single thing that he lists here is covered. what else does he want?
low compression = NOT NECESSARY! i've counted 2 times where i said, then project84 even provided a chart with all engine and all compressions ... where is the lack of info????
different metals? where? far as i know, we don't have a choice in rotor materials or housing materials ... just the seals and gears. if i am wrong, then i would love to know it so that i can learn about these facts. i'm always trying to create ideas for building "the next motor" and ways to make it better ...
besides, the stock materials seem to hold up fine ... remember when Adam Saruwatari was running his Rx-7? ... i didn't read about any special metals in the rotors or housing. on the counterpoint ... he may have chosen to omit that info from the article where they dissected his car and engine build-up ... but i'm sure someone would have heard about it.
oil porting = using the SE oil pump is covered in the mazdarati thread, the fact that upgraded e-shaft jets are readily available is covered (and BTW, that was something that i learned from that thread), the pressure regulator is covered ... it's common sense to clean the passages when you have the engine apart, so what else is there ... where is the LACK of info???
porting jobs=i can't count the number of times i've typed the word "streetport" here. the decision between street vs. bridge is up to him ... i personally think that the streetport is better suited for high boost engines and would choose to use that over bridges and peripherals, but i believe all 3 choices were presented to him.
stronger engine bolts- the regular tension bolts can break! but, **** ... i've heard of ARP bolts (far as i know they are close to being industry standard - maybe i'm misinformed, but ...) breaking on Porsches and MR2's with stratospheric boost. but i've seen the stock tension bolts stand up to 21+ pounds and those were 13B bolts which would theoretically be more prone to vibration that 12A bolts, right? just do the trick with the silicone (see the engine build thread) or maybe try to wrap them with something that will absorb vibration.

look, i don't mind typing volumes about rotary engines and building them, and boosting them and all that ... hell, i love these technical threads a lot more than rims and stereos. i would not try to participate and share my thoughts if i did not have a genuine interest. when was the last time i posted something in a stereo thread???? go ahead ... i dare you to find it. it should be painfully obvious that i don't mind sitting down to write ... just look at this post and the one before it.

you challenged who wants to teach and who wants to learn ... well, i'll send the first response. i want to do BOTH! however, i'm not going to take **** because either he can't ask a better question and he finds reading frustrating. there may very be a miscommunication here that i'm not understanding, and if it IS my fault, then i apologize sincerely. however, i'm not going to apologize to them for my response i think it went unaddressed long enough, and they were just getting plain RUDE. i spoke for myself ... and i'm sorry if i came off sounding like i REPRESENT the WHOLE forum. and i would also like to apologize again, only for my meeting them on the juvenile level, but as for the sentiment, no i stand by it.

i don't hate them! and if they are willing to accept help/advice from me, then i'm more than willing to offer it. however, just do it without the attacks.

to the Gen I forum, I am sorry for my outburst, and this will be the last post in this thread from me. i promise ...

1

 

Diabolical, you should've known better than to spend the time arguing with jrc240sx- just by the questions he asked, That's all. Clearly he is content wasting his time with this when he obviously should be hitting the books; But why are you wasting your time? You already gave him plenty by your account, right?

Directfreak- In a bad mood?! Well ye-ah!. You're probably in the top 1% of boost knowledge on this board, and yet you still pop in to this thread- Why? To share even more of your info?...No. To see if you can pick up a tid-bit, am I right?
So this whole thread has'nt been a disappointment to you as well?

It's too bad we can't re-name threads. I guess it serves it's purpose- Just a big BOV for some hot air.

How high can I boost my stock 12a? It'll be going from zero boost to "whatever" with the control of a ****.

 

Ok I would like to come out and state that I am sorry for that outburst. I thought that if i tried to make the question clearer that we might get the information that we were looking for. So I must say thanks to diabolical1 for the info in his last post, you provided information that we could not find. As for the other information in this post, it is very useful. when we get to the point of going turbo it will be something that we will most likely find even more useful.

My train of thought is that there has to be something in the block that can be upgraded (piston engine train of thought) so when i start working on a rotary, i am looking for things i can upgrade, just like if i were to upgrade my pistons, rods, valve springs, and the like. I also understand the importance of good tuning. If you tune the Ka24de engine correctly you can get it to run up to 20psi boost, it’s just a mater of controlling detonation. We just wanted to know, like a piston engine, what we could upgrade to make sure it went over smother. I will continue to learn more about this new engine and if I get to a point were I know more of the basics, and if i have a question that i cant figure out, or something that is confising me, i will be sure to search befor i post.


(Yesterdays anger came after working on a computer that finally booted up (after 250 in parts), to find its Modem, CD, CD-rw, and floppy were also bad)

 

Now THAT is a good specific question. There are two things now for you to SEARCH for.

1) Ceramic Coatings / Apex Seals
2) Most Importantly - Dowel Pinning, or "pinning" the motor.

Look these up in the Forum, much will be revealed. In a nutshell, Ceramic coating the rotors will yield better heat dissapation, and this goes well with high boost. There is also talk of Ceramic Apex seals, but I have no knowledge of that myself.

Dowel Pinning the engine is reinforcement. It is adding bracing (via long dowels) that the rotary engine uses. (see Pic) There are two trains of thought on this. Some think with proper Tuning, you don't need it. In a perfect world, you don't need car insurance either.



I do believe in Pinning the motor when the output is over 450 rwhp. This gives the engine more torsional rigidity, and keeps this in their place when all hell is breaking loose. It is not an easy process to do, and I recommend it done by a true rotary professional only. It is way, way to easy to ruin your housings and end plates.

Here's a good thread with some info.

 

Thanks for that info, that’s some good stuff to look into.

Joe

If I find anything interesting about this stuff I will let you all know.

 

I'm glad to see that every one found their Pro-Zac!!!

 

I knew this icon was for something

I understand what you are saying. There are only 3 moving parts in the block of a rotary engine. Something else you can upgrade, and diabolical1 touched on it, the stationary gears that the rotors rotate around, and their bearings. www.mazdatrix.com, and www.racingbeat.com make hardened (heat treated to withstand higher temps and pressure) gears. The e-shaft goes through the gear, and they also have bearings with 3 windows in them, to allow more lubrication to the bearing. I replaced the thermal plug in the front of the e-shaft with a dummy plug, found at www.atkinsrotary.com or mazdatrix. This lets oil get to the rotors all the time, instead of the stock thermal plug waiting until the oil is hot enough. Also, if the stock plug fails, it never lets oil get to the rotor.
The original corner seal springs can be replaced with the springs designed for the 93-95 rotary engine. The picks show the difference, the 93-95 being stronger and sealing better.

74-92(all models)

93-95(high proformance upgrade)

These are some things that I, and many other people have done.

stock bearings

3 window bearing