Getting an 85 GSL with bad motor...
05-16-09, 07:41 PM
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Getting an 85 GSL with bad motor...
Hey guys,
I am a former honda guy, owned a 4th gen prelude, who has been out of the game for a while. I am 28 years old now and am starting to appreciate the early 80's cars, especially the FB because of its simplicity, great body lines, and of course RWD!!!
I am purchasing an 85 GSL with what I am assuming is a bad motor. A younger kid bought it and said it was running great and then all of a sudden its has no power and smokes like the devil. The car was in a shop and they didn't want me to start it due to the smoke. Monday I will be picking it up.
With the research I've been doing it sounds like an apex seal? Hopefully the housing and rotors are reusable for a rebuild. The previous owner I guess put some money into it because the motor looks clean on top and has a new holley carb and racing beat carb hat. not sure if the intake is a racing beat upgrade as well.
If it were you and you had a budget of around $800 to get it running again what would you do?
Also, I plan on getting one or two of the 12a rebuild dvd's and download the service manual, but why are there no in depth write-ups? If you guys have a link to a good writeup please let me know.
I am a former honda guy, owned a 4th gen prelude, who has been out of the game for a while. I am 28 years old now and am starting to appreciate the early 80's cars, especially the FB because of its simplicity, great body lines, and of course RWD!!!
I am purchasing an 85 GSL with what I am assuming is a bad motor. A younger kid bought it and said it was running great and then all of a sudden its has no power and smokes like the devil. The car was in a shop and they didn't want me to start it due to the smoke. Monday I will be picking it up.
With the research I've been doing it sounds like an apex seal? Hopefully the housing and rotors are reusable for a rebuild. The previous owner I guess put some money into it because the motor looks clean on top and has a new holley carb and racing beat carb hat. not sure if the intake is a racing beat upgrade as well.
If it were you and you had a budget of around $800 to get it running again what would you do?
Also, I plan on getting one or two of the 12a rebuild dvd's and download the service manual, but why are there no in depth write-ups? If you guys have a link to a good writeup please let me know.
05-17-09, 04:40 AM
#2
Welcome!
World of Knowledge here so you won't be alone.
FSM is available from folks here that you can download, but its great to have the Real McCoy with you at the car. Ebay sells manuals regularly for $25+ ($80 from a dealer).
Can't tell you the number of stories here of guys getting "dead" RX7s that just needed some minor mechanical work to get them road worthy (not that I want to get your hopes up). "New Holley Carb" sounds like a set-up for fuel problems if the install wasn't done right. The point is, work with folks here to go thru the car before you assume the engine is cooked.
Smoking does sound problematic tho - the Bad Smoke is the white-ish stuff on cold starts - plumes of this and the odor of coolant (you'll smell it if stand back there) means a water seal has been compromised = rebuild. rotaries are sensitive to overheating so if the previous owner got careless...
Also remember rotaries BURN OIL - by DESIGN. They actually have a little pump that injects oil thru the carb from the sump. This means you have to be _religious_ about checking oil consumption. Good engines will use a quart this way every 500-1500mi. (Yeah it varies a lot depending on what kind of life the engine has had).
If the rebuild becomes necessary, I would urge you to buy an instructional DVD. All the ones (that I know of ) are for the larger 13B engine, but work is virtually identical. I bought the Atkins DVD, and it has a lot of great tips once you get past the awful music track. I have since ordered the 4-DVD set produced in New Zealand, which is supposed to be "the" instructional DVD set (vs 1 DVD from Atkins). I think the Atkins one was $39. The NZ set is $100:
http://www.diy-re.co.nz/main.htm
Get what you pay for, and considering the time and cost of new rebuild bits, $100 is cheap insurance to get the job done right. Others may offer other sources.
AND - a great FREE resource is the video tutorial series offered on-line at the Pineappleracing.com site. These are great folks, with some wonderful rebuild tools and ideas, as well as some unique products that can make for a solid rebuild (its what they do).
$800?
Well, apex seals all by themselves are $300. The engine gasket kit is about $110 at mazdatrix. Oil Control Ring Set: $350. Side seals for rotors: $100....yeah, $800 should get you close to most everything assuming all the housings are re-useable. And you won't know that till you crack the block...
'Luck and again, welcome-
Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska
World of Knowledge here so you won't be alone.
FSM is available from folks here that you can download, but its great to have the Real McCoy with you at the car. Ebay sells manuals regularly for $25+ ($80 from a dealer).
Can't tell you the number of stories here of guys getting "dead" RX7s that just needed some minor mechanical work to get them road worthy (not that I want to get your hopes up). "New Holley Carb" sounds like a set-up for fuel problems if the install wasn't done right. The point is, work with folks here to go thru the car before you assume the engine is cooked.
Smoking does sound problematic tho - the Bad Smoke is the white-ish stuff on cold starts - plumes of this and the odor of coolant (you'll smell it if stand back there) means a water seal has been compromised = rebuild. rotaries are sensitive to overheating so if the previous owner got careless...
Also remember rotaries BURN OIL - by DESIGN. They actually have a little pump that injects oil thru the carb from the sump. This means you have to be _religious_ about checking oil consumption. Good engines will use a quart this way every 500-1500mi. (Yeah it varies a lot depending on what kind of life the engine has had).
If the rebuild becomes necessary, I would urge you to buy an instructional DVD. All the ones (that I know of ) are for the larger 13B engine, but work is virtually identical. I bought the Atkins DVD, and it has a lot of great tips once you get past the awful music track. I have since ordered the 4-DVD set produced in New Zealand, which is supposed to be "the" instructional DVD set (vs 1 DVD from Atkins). I think the Atkins one was $39. The NZ set is $100:
http://www.diy-re.co.nz/main.htm
Get what you pay for, and considering the time and cost of new rebuild bits, $100 is cheap insurance to get the job done right. Others may offer other sources.
AND - a great FREE resource is the video tutorial series offered on-line at the Pineappleracing.com site. These are great folks, with some wonderful rebuild tools and ideas, as well as some unique products that can make for a solid rebuild (its what they do).
$800?
Well, apex seals all by themselves are $300. The engine gasket kit is about $110 at mazdatrix. Oil Control Ring Set: $350. Side seals for rotors: $100....yeah, $800 should get you close to most everything assuming all the housings are re-useable. And you won't know that till you crack the block...
'Luck and again, welcome-
Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska
05-17-09, 08:02 AM
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thanks for the great info 7 aull!
13b is also an option if i can find one cheap....another downside for me is SMOG, so I'll have to deal with that too.
13b is also an option if i can find one cheap....another downside for me is SMOG, so I'll have to deal with that too.
05-17-09, 10:17 AM
#5
It could be one of three things. The first that Stu pointed out are the coolant seals. If these are gone, the motor must be rebuilt, and you're more than likely going to need hard parts (i.e. one or both of the housings are warped).
The second is that it's running pig rich, which Stu pointed out when he said that it could be too much fuel making it to the motor. While this is plausible, severe smoking at idle would signal an extremely rich carb at idle, which a competent shop could have fixed relatively easily.
My guess is that the kid that owned the car and put the Holley kit on enjoyed hearing the sound of the rev buzzer and over revved the motor. This can cause the e-shaft to flex, damaging the oil control rings, resulting in massive amounts of oil smoke, and more than likely a motor that is completely toast. (e-shaft flexes, rotors contact irons and possibly housings, gouging them).
This is what happened to my first motor, sans the wanting to hear the over rev buzzer (mine didn't work). I had the RB Holley 465 setup on my old car, and the secondaries didn't work regularly. I would be at ~6000rpm in 2nd gear mostly when they'd randomly come online, and I'd over rev the motor because I wasn't expecting the power and it would startle me. A summer of this happening and me trying to figure out why my secondaries wouldn't open caused the motor to blow.
Good luck.
The second is that it's running pig rich, which Stu pointed out when he said that it could be too much fuel making it to the motor. While this is plausible, severe smoking at idle would signal an extremely rich carb at idle, which a competent shop could have fixed relatively easily.
My guess is that the kid that owned the car and put the Holley kit on enjoyed hearing the sound of the rev buzzer and over revved the motor. This can cause the e-shaft to flex, damaging the oil control rings, resulting in massive amounts of oil smoke, and more than likely a motor that is completely toast. (e-shaft flexes, rotors contact irons and possibly housings, gouging them).
This is what happened to my first motor, sans the wanting to hear the over rev buzzer (mine didn't work). I had the RB Holley 465 setup on my old car, and the secondaries didn't work regularly. I would be at ~6000rpm in 2nd gear mostly when they'd randomly come online, and I'd over rev the motor because I wasn't expecting the power and it would startle me. A summer of this happening and me trying to figure out why my secondaries wouldn't open caused the motor to blow.
Good luck.
05-17-09, 09:03 PM
#7
Check your oil and plugs for signs of coolant. If either have coolant, you're *probably* looking at a rebuild. If your oil looks like a chocolate milkshake, you need a rebuild. If your plugs look like they have coolant on them, you *may* need a rebuild.
Get the car started and have someone keep it running while you smell the exhaust. If it smells like maple syrup, you're burning coolant and are in need of a rebuild.
While the car is still cold and running, pull off the radiator cap. If you see bubbles, this is a breach of a coolant seal and you need a rebuild.
Buy yourself a basic piston compression tester. Fully charge your battery. Take your bottom (leading) spark plugs out. Screw in your compression tester. Hold down the relief valve. Have someone spin over the motor with the starter.
3 even pulses over 100psi is a great motor. 3 even pulses 90psi-100psi is a decent motor. 3 even pulses 80psi-90psi, you're going to need a rebuild soon. Anything under 80psi, search for another core.
If you get 1 pulse on a rotor, you're missing an apex seal or it is stuck. If this is the case, pull off your exhaust manifold. Spin over the motor with the front pulley and look/feel through the exhaust ports to see if you're missing an apex seal. If they are all in tact, run a can or two of sea foam through 1/8 of a tank (1 can per 1/8 of a tank). This *should* loosen that apex seal.
If you get 2 pulses per rotor, you have a collapsed/stuck side seal. Run the sea foam through the motor to try and free it up. If not, rebuild time.
If you're burning a ton of oil, the motor has more than likely been over revved, which has damaged the side seals and the oil control rings. Rebuild time. My motor showed 45/45/45 on both rotors and was venting so much of the combustion pressure into the crank case that I was puking oil out of my filler tube. Let us know.
Get the car started and have someone keep it running while you smell the exhaust. If it smells like maple syrup, you're burning coolant and are in need of a rebuild.
While the car is still cold and running, pull off the radiator cap. If you see bubbles, this is a breach of a coolant seal and you need a rebuild.
Buy yourself a basic piston compression tester. Fully charge your battery. Take your bottom (leading) spark plugs out. Screw in your compression tester. Hold down the relief valve. Have someone spin over the motor with the starter.
3 even pulses over 100psi is a great motor. 3 even pulses 90psi-100psi is a decent motor. 3 even pulses 80psi-90psi, you're going to need a rebuild soon. Anything under 80psi, search for another core.
If you get 1 pulse on a rotor, you're missing an apex seal or it is stuck. If this is the case, pull off your exhaust manifold. Spin over the motor with the front pulley and look/feel through the exhaust ports to see if you're missing an apex seal. If they are all in tact, run a can or two of sea foam through 1/8 of a tank (1 can per 1/8 of a tank). This *should* loosen that apex seal.
If you get 2 pulses per rotor, you have a collapsed/stuck side seal. Run the sea foam through the motor to try and free it up. If not, rebuild time.
If you're burning a ton of oil, the motor has more than likely been over revved, which has damaged the side seals and the oil control rings. Rebuild time. My motor showed 45/45/45 on both rotors and was venting so much of the combustion pressure into the crank case that I was puking oil out of my filler tube. Let us know.
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05-18-09, 12:10 AM
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Check your oil and plugs for signs of coolant. If either have coolant, you're *probably* looking at a rebuild. If your oil looks like a chocolate milkshake, you need a rebuild. If your plugs look like they have coolant on them, you *may* need a rebuild.
Get the car started and have someone keep it running while you smell the exhaust. If it smells like maple syrup, you're burning coolant and are in need of a rebuild.
While the car is still cold and running, pull off the radiator cap. If you see bubbles, this is a breach of a coolant seal and you need a rebuild.
Buy yourself a basic piston compression tester. Fully charge your battery. Take your bottom (leading) spark plugs out. Screw in your compression tester. Hold down the relief valve. Have someone spin over the motor with the starter.
3 even pulses over 100psi is a great motor. 3 even pulses 90psi-100psi is a decent motor. 3 even pulses 80psi-90psi, you're going to need a rebuild soon. Anything under 80psi, search for another core.
If you get 1 pulse on a rotor, you're missing an apex seal or it is stuck. If this is the case, pull off your exhaust manifold. Spin over the motor with the front pulley and look/feel through the exhaust ports to see if you're missing an apex seal. If they are all in tact, run a can or two of sea foam through 1/8 of a tank (1 can per 1/8 of a tank). This *should* loosen that apex seal.
If you get 2 pulses per rotor, you have a collapsed/stuck side seal. Run the sea foam through the motor to try and free it up. If not, rebuild time.
If you're burning a ton of oil, the motor has more than likely been over revved, which has damaged the side seals and the oil control rings. Rebuild time. My motor showed 45/45/45 on both rotors and was venting so much of the combustion pressure into the crank case that I was puking oil out of my filler tube. Let us know.
Get the car started and have someone keep it running while you smell the exhaust. If it smells like maple syrup, you're burning coolant and are in need of a rebuild.
While the car is still cold and running, pull off the radiator cap. If you see bubbles, this is a breach of a coolant seal and you need a rebuild.
Buy yourself a basic piston compression tester. Fully charge your battery. Take your bottom (leading) spark plugs out. Screw in your compression tester. Hold down the relief valve. Have someone spin over the motor with the starter.
3 even pulses over 100psi is a great motor. 3 even pulses 90psi-100psi is a decent motor. 3 even pulses 80psi-90psi, you're going to need a rebuild soon. Anything under 80psi, search for another core.
If you get 1 pulse on a rotor, you're missing an apex seal or it is stuck. If this is the case, pull off your exhaust manifold. Spin over the motor with the front pulley and look/feel through the exhaust ports to see if you're missing an apex seal. If they are all in tact, run a can or two of sea foam through 1/8 of a tank (1 can per 1/8 of a tank). This *should* loosen that apex seal.
If you get 2 pulses per rotor, you have a collapsed/stuck side seal. Run the sea foam through the motor to try and free it up. If not, rebuild time.
If you're burning a ton of oil, the motor has more than likely been over revved, which has damaged the side seals and the oil control rings. Rebuild time. My motor showed 45/45/45 on both rotors and was venting so much of the combustion pressure into the crank case that I was puking oil out of my filler tube. Let us know.
I cant wait to see what I'm dealing with....
05-18-09, 07:27 AM
#9
Quick compression test. Remove lower rear plug. Cover plug hole with a rag. Disconnect the coil to distributor wires. Turn the engine over. You should hear uniform "pops". Replace plug and do the same with the front rotor. Compare the sounds from the two rotors. They should be similar. If not, the more detailed compression test described above may be needed. As others have said, smell the smoke
05-18-09, 09:37 AM
#10
Quick compression test. Remove lower rear plug. Cover plug hole with a rag. Disconnect the coil to distributor wires. Turn the engine over. You should hear uniform "pops". Replace plug and do the same with the front rotor. Compare the sounds from the two rotors. They should be similar. If not, the more detailed compression test described above may be needed. As others have said, smell the smoke
BTW, how are you liking that steering wheel?
05-18-09, 10:38 AM
#12
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You're going to have to find out what the smoke smells like (and looks like). That will be the first step in diagnosing the issue.
If it does turn out to be a bad coolant seal, I've got a $4.00 fix for that which has worked for several others as well.
If it is a bad oil seal, then Lucas oil stabilizer may be able to reduce the smoking enough that it is not a severe issue.
Post back with smoke info (smell and color) and that will help a lot...
.
If it does turn out to be a bad coolant seal, I've got a $4.00 fix for that which has worked for several others as well.
If it is a bad oil seal, then Lucas oil stabilizer may be able to reduce the smoking enough that it is not a severe issue.
Post back with smoke info (smell and color) and that will help a lot...
.
05-18-09, 05:41 PM
#13
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just got the car home and drove it about 15 city blocks.
The engine doesn't smoke like I was expecting it to, there really isn't a color per say but a horrible smell of unburnt fuel. When he started the car it started fine and idled on its own after a minute of helping it warm up.
He drove it out of his shop and you could smell the harsh fumes from the engine, but thankfully there was no white/blue or black smoke....
When I drove it home it didn't want to rev past 4k, I had to baby the gas pedal so it would choke itself. The car has very little power to accellerate, if felt like the motor had 30 WHP :P
I am CAUTIOUSLY optimistic that its a fuel/carb issue... I have to pick up my wife and kids from work but I will be getting that compression tester at sears later to see what number I have...I'm crossing my fingers.
BTW, like I said this carb is the holley, I will check what series, and Is missing alot of the SMOG type stuff that the engine is supposed to have, Is it possible that the cat converter is clogged and causing this condition??? let me know what you guys think. I will post pics too later if I can get enough light
The engine doesn't smoke like I was expecting it to, there really isn't a color per say but a horrible smell of unburnt fuel. When he started the car it started fine and idled on its own after a minute of helping it warm up.
He drove it out of his shop and you could smell the harsh fumes from the engine, but thankfully there was no white/blue or black smoke....
When I drove it home it didn't want to rev past 4k, I had to baby the gas pedal so it would choke itself. The car has very little power to accellerate, if felt like the motor had 30 WHP :P
I am CAUTIOUSLY optimistic that its a fuel/carb issue... I have to pick up my wife and kids from work but I will be getting that compression tester at sears later to see what number I have...I'm crossing my fingers.
BTW, like I said this carb is the holley, I will check what series, and Is missing alot of the SMOG type stuff that the engine is supposed to have, Is it possible that the cat converter is clogged and causing this condition??? let me know what you guys think. I will post pics too later if I can get enough light
05-19-09, 04:37 AM
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Update
its 0230 AM and I managed to get a little work done...
Sears only compression tester was over $50 so I passed and will buy a cheaper one tomorrow, however I did smell the exhaust and there is NO sweet smell indicating coolant. My coolant is green and oil is black, dont have any issues with oil/water mixing, so it appears my coolant seals are ok.
I pulled the dizzy cap and rotor and they are OK, but could use replacing, the cap has 2 contacts that are iffy imo. The plug wires look ok, just dirty, no corrosion or cracking. Now to the biggest issue I found, the plugs!
I pulled the plug wires only to see the name "Autolite" printed on them, one moment while I throw up.... thanks, sorry about that. I despise Autolite plugs.... and of course they are the standard single probe/electrode plug. Also, the electrode is wore down considerably which could mean bad things if it made contact with the apex seals? or Hopefully, the reason I am running so poorly is due to not enough spark to fully ignite the air/fuel mix...... I will have to wait and see, I'm going to order the NGK's tomorrow and do the compression test as well.
I'll be posting pics tommorow as well of everthing
Sears only compression tester was over $50 so I passed and will buy a cheaper one tomorrow, however I did smell the exhaust and there is NO sweet smell indicating coolant. My coolant is green and oil is black, dont have any issues with oil/water mixing, so it appears my coolant seals are ok.
I pulled the dizzy cap and rotor and they are OK, but could use replacing, the cap has 2 contacts that are iffy imo. The plug wires look ok, just dirty, no corrosion or cracking. Now to the biggest issue I found, the plugs!
I pulled the plug wires only to see the name "Autolite" printed on them, one moment while I throw up.... thanks, sorry about that. I despise Autolite plugs.... and of course they are the standard single probe/electrode plug. Also, the electrode is wore down considerably which could mean bad things if it made contact with the apex seals? or Hopefully, the reason I am running so poorly is due to not enough spark to fully ignite the air/fuel mix...... I will have to wait and see, I'm going to order the NGK's tomorrow and do the compression test as well.
I'll be posting pics tommorow as well of everthing
05-19-09, 04:52 AM
#15
Fresh fuel and a clean fuel filter. Replacing or cleaning the distributor cap, rotor, and plugs can make a huge difference. Clogged cat could cause similar symptoms. Is the exhaust flowing freely out the tail pipes? Make sure the plug wires have not been mixed up. T goes to top plugs. L goes to bottom plugs.
05-19-09, 08:05 PM
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hey guys,
Ok so I ordered a new cap/rotor and plugs today at kragen...
I did the compression test and this is what I have:
Front rotor sounds very strong, getting 100psi in consistant pulses...great! I did the free compression test first with no plug in the leading front rotor...got a strong mist of fuel in my garage.
Rear rotor is dead, I get nothing zero psi on compression tester. Also, including no fuel in the housing? What would this indicate? Sounds like either all apex seals are destroyed OR something is stuck/seized....
anything else I can troubleshoot now guys?
I am trying to find my camera's usb cord so I can upload pics of the engine and plugs...
Ok so I ordered a new cap/rotor and plugs today at kragen...
I did the compression test and this is what I have:
Front rotor sounds very strong, getting 100psi in consistant pulses...great! I did the free compression test first with no plug in the leading front rotor...got a strong mist of fuel in my garage.
Rear rotor is dead, I get nothing zero psi on compression tester. Also, including no fuel in the housing? What would this indicate? Sounds like either all apex seals are destroyed OR something is stuck/seized....
anything else I can troubleshoot now guys?
I am trying to find my camera's usb cord so I can upload pics of the engine and plugs...
05-19-09, 08:13 PM
#18
0 on all 3 faces? That's strange... No fuel either?
What I'd suggest is pouring 2-3 tablespoons full of Marvel Mystery Oil into the rear lower plug hole, turn the motor over, add 2-3 tablespoons into the lower plug hole, turn it over more, add 2-3 tablespoons, put your autolite plugs back in, and let it sit.
That will eat the carbon. Hopefully it's just a gummed up rear rotor.
What I'd suggest is pouring 2-3 tablespoons full of Marvel Mystery Oil into the rear lower plug hole, turn the motor over, add 2-3 tablespoons into the lower plug hole, turn it over more, add 2-3 tablespoons, put your autolite plugs back in, and let it sit.
That will eat the carbon. Hopefully it's just a gummed up rear rotor.
05-19-09, 08:21 PM
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thats what I'm hoping... I also seen this stuff at atkins rotary, http://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/pr...cat=568&page=1, its ams oil spray that is supposed to eat up the carbon....
I guess seafoam I probaly just as good or the Marvel like you suggested whitey...how many doses of the oil...4-5?
I guess seafoam I probaly just as good or the Marvel like you suggested whitey...how many doses of the oil...4-5?
05-19-09, 11:55 PM
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Ok so I'm going to leave the MMO in overnight and hopefully it will get me some results... tomorrow i think I will take the exhaust manifold off so I can see into the ports and see what I'm working with. Can I add more MMO through the exhaust port to get more MMO in around the rotor? Also, I've been using my starter to turn the engine since its not totally carbon locked, so where do I turn the motor by hand at?
I cant find my damn USB cord to upload those pics...I'll hopefully find it tomorrow.
Goodnight
I cant find my damn USB cord to upload those pics...I'll hopefully find it tomorrow.
Goodnight
05-20-09, 05:12 PM
#23
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If I recall correctly, it is designed to shut off the airflow to the rear rotor when decellerating. What it is, is a valve in the intake manifold. Sometimes the mechanism that controls it will get stuck, cutting off the air and fuel to the rear rotor. This can also (I believe) interfere with compression testing since you are supposed to hold the throttle open, but the valve acts like the throttle is closed...
05-20-09, 06:17 PM
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thanks kentetsu
Bad News... I pulled the exhaust manifold and turned the engine via wrench and found some pieces missing from the apex seals...also looked like my rear rotor may have some gouging due to the pieces of the apex seal. So I need a rebuild or a different motor. Thanks for your help so far guys... I will be updating you all on my next step.
Goodnews... The MMO did its job very well...rear rotor's carbon was all broke up and front rotor was black.
Bad News... I pulled the exhaust manifold and turned the engine via wrench and found some pieces missing from the apex seals...also looked like my rear rotor may have some gouging due to the pieces of the apex seal. So I need a rebuild or a different motor. Thanks for your help so far guys... I will be updating you all on my next step.
Goodnews... The MMO did its job very well...rear rotor's carbon was all broke up and front rotor was black.