Calling Kentetsu and other CSP racers
08-28-08, 08:27 AM
#1
common sense prevails....
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Calling Kentetsu and other CSP racers
Hey guys....can the SA22C EVER be competitive in SCCA CSP??? I have friends who race autocross here in the Houston area. One guy races CP in a Mustang, his wife races C stock in a Miata, another guy runs F-stock in a Camaro.
I have been racing with them many times but have never owned an autocross car (just owned bunch of drag cars). Anyhow I have been contemplating building a CSP car with the RX-7.
My friend (CP guy) says an RX-7 will NEVER be competitive. I do know that autocross is like 80% driver and the rest car.
Can the SA22C be competitive? What are the basics to build one competitive. I basically know the rules and have a rule book. Just wanting to know what the tried and true folks are using.
Is the Miata that much better???? I DONT WANT A MIATA!!!! Is the Miata dominant because that is what is there now?? (Current available car, readily available) or is it that much better???
The beauty I like about CSP is I can go have fun but still keep the car a nice street car.
Please advise!!!!!
I have been racing with them many times but have never owned an autocross car (just owned bunch of drag cars). Anyhow I have been contemplating building a CSP car with the RX-7.
My friend (CP guy) says an RX-7 will NEVER be competitive. I do know that autocross is like 80% driver and the rest car.
Can the SA22C be competitive? What are the basics to build one competitive. I basically know the rules and have a rule book. Just wanting to know what the tried and true folks are using.
Is the Miata that much better???? I DONT WANT A MIATA!!!! Is the Miata dominant because that is what is there now?? (Current available car, readily available) or is it that much better???
The beauty I like about CSP is I can go have fun but still keep the car a nice street car.
Please advise!!!!!
08-28-08, 09:12 AM
#2
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Well, I figure any idiot can win in a Miata, but it takes some skill to win in a 7. 
Out of six races this year, only in my last race did I fail to win CSP. A damned Miata showed up on race rubber, and it was pretty nicely prepared to boot. He got me by 4/10ths of a second and it was only due to a mistake I made in setting up my car that morning (forgot to set the toe-out before the race).
Fortunately, you will have plenty of horsepower for the class if you just add a good exhaust system/header, and maybe a carb (I use a Sterling). There are a couple of things you can do to the ignition setup to squeek out a few more ponies too (2nd gen coil direct fire).
The biggest single improvement you will make to the car will be a good set of wheels and race rubber. I saved that for last, and concentrated my efforts on suspension first, just to see how far I could go on cheap Sumitomos. But for the last couple of races, I've had the pleasure of driving on Diamond Racing wheels (13x8) and Hoosier 225/45/13 tires. But the tires were nearly worn out when I got them, so now I'll be back on the Sumitomos until I can foot the bill for another set.
Suspension: I feel that I went about this in the wrong way. I started out with Racing Beat springs and swaybars, but after two years on those decided that it just wasn't enough of an advantage to justify the cost. Last year I began upgrading my suspension to Respeed equipment, installing the last of the parts this spring. What a difference that made! If I had started out with Respeed in the beginning, I could have saved myself a lot of time and money by not having to redo everything later on.
I'm using their race version coilovers with 275 Lb springs and Illumina shocks on the front. I've got their adjustable perches with 150 Lb springs and Bilstein shocks on the back, but kind of miss the adjustability of the Illuminas I had on there before. Respeed front swaybar, which is much lighter and better made than the Racing Beat bar it replaced, and an ISC Racing adjustable rear swaybar in the back. And of course the camber plates, which are a great help.
I've still got stock brakes all around, but started using Hawk pads a little bit ago and they are very nice. I have not seen a need for any improvement of the braking system beyond that.
The best thing about racing in CSP is that it allows you to make all of the improvements on your car that you would want to anyway, even if you didn't race. You can free up the power, remove emissions, and improve the suspension to create a car that is just plain better than it was when new.
Billy from Respeed has always been a tremendous help to me, answering my questions even before I was ever a customer. He is a big supporter of this forum, and a great guy to deal with. Due to the quality of their parts, and the outstanding customer support, the only reason I would make a purchase from any other place would be if Respeed didn't sell it.
Overall, I think I've finally come to the point where my car is just about set and all I can do now is improve my driving. Hell, I've got a trilink/panhard setup sitting on a shelf in my garage that I never installed just because I felt I didn't need any more handling improvement and couldn't justify the time/effort of the install. Maybe someday I'll throw it on there just to see, but for now I'm very satisfied with my setup. Hell, I haven't been beaten by a Porsche in two years! And we do get some nice ones around here.
I hope this answers some of your questions, but let me know if I missed anything.
.
Out of six races this year, only in my last race did I fail to win CSP. A damned Miata showed up on race rubber, and it was pretty nicely prepared to boot. He got me by 4/10ths of a second and it was only due to a mistake I made in setting up my car that morning (forgot to set the toe-out before the race).
Fortunately, you will have plenty of horsepower for the class if you just add a good exhaust system/header, and maybe a carb (I use a Sterling). There are a couple of things you can do to the ignition setup to squeek out a few more ponies too (2nd gen coil direct fire).
The biggest single improvement you will make to the car will be a good set of wheels and race rubber. I saved that for last, and concentrated my efforts on suspension first, just to see how far I could go on cheap Sumitomos. But for the last couple of races, I've had the pleasure of driving on Diamond Racing wheels (13x8) and Hoosier 225/45/13 tires. But the tires were nearly worn out when I got them, so now I'll be back on the Sumitomos until I can foot the bill for another set.
Suspension: I feel that I went about this in the wrong way. I started out with Racing Beat springs and swaybars, but after two years on those decided that it just wasn't enough of an advantage to justify the cost. Last year I began upgrading my suspension to Respeed equipment, installing the last of the parts this spring. What a difference that made! If I had started out with Respeed in the beginning, I could have saved myself a lot of time and money by not having to redo everything later on.
I'm using their race version coilovers with 275 Lb springs and Illumina shocks on the front. I've got their adjustable perches with 150 Lb springs and Bilstein shocks on the back, but kind of miss the adjustability of the Illuminas I had on there before. Respeed front swaybar, which is much lighter and better made than the Racing Beat bar it replaced, and an ISC Racing adjustable rear swaybar in the back. And of course the camber plates, which are a great help.
I've still got stock brakes all around, but started using Hawk pads a little bit ago and they are very nice. I have not seen a need for any improvement of the braking system beyond that.
The best thing about racing in CSP is that it allows you to make all of the improvements on your car that you would want to anyway, even if you didn't race. You can free up the power, remove emissions, and improve the suspension to create a car that is just plain better than it was when new.
Billy from Respeed has always been a tremendous help to me, answering my questions even before I was ever a customer. He is a big supporter of this forum, and a great guy to deal with. Due to the quality of their parts, and the outstanding customer support, the only reason I would make a purchase from any other place would be if Respeed didn't sell it.
Overall, I think I've finally come to the point where my car is just about set and all I can do now is improve my driving. Hell, I've got a trilink/panhard setup sitting on a shelf in my garage that I never installed just because I felt I didn't need any more handling improvement and couldn't justify the time/effort of the install. Maybe someday I'll throw it on there just to see, but for now I'm very satisfied with my setup. Hell, I haven't been beaten by a Porsche in two years! And we do get some nice ones around here.
I hope this answers some of your questions, but let me know if I missed anything.
.
Last edited by Kentetsu; 08-28-08 at 09:17 AM.
08-28-08, 06:09 PM
#3
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Sorry to jump in so quickly in the thread, but I just have a couple of questions that I hope will help 80's old school as well as myself. Do you have poly bushings, or rubber? Those spring rates seem a bit high in comparison to the stock ones. How much worse is the ride (vs. RB)? How much is the car driven on the street (besides the drive to the event)? Do all the race tires fit in the car, or do you have a small trailer or something?
I ran a 93 Dodge Dakota truck in ESP during the late '90's. (ESP class champion in '99 at our local club...wierd huh) It had the poly bushings, lowered, low profile 17's, etc... Handled surprisingly well, but actually became less fun to drive daily due to the increase in ride harshness. (Poly cab mounts were a bad idea.) I'm in a bit of the same boat as '80's old school with wanting to autocross the car and hold my own, but I really don't want to repeat some previously made mistakes with focusing too much on being competitive with vehicle prep, and not enjoy the car on the street.
Thanks for the input.
I ran a 93 Dodge Dakota truck in ESP during the late '90's. (ESP class champion in '99 at our local club...wierd huh) It had the poly bushings, lowered, low profile 17's, etc... Handled surprisingly well, but actually became less fun to drive daily due to the increase in ride harshness. (Poly cab mounts were a bad idea.) I'm in a bit of the same boat as '80's old school with wanting to autocross the car and hold my own, but I really don't want to repeat some previously made mistakes with focusing too much on being competitive with vehicle prep, and not enjoy the car on the street.
Thanks for the input.
08-28-08, 08:30 PM
#4
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My car is almost done, I will bring it out and see how I compare against Scott Fraser (5th place in Nationals and he beat the National Champ a few months ago). I don't think it will be close, having seen what the car and driver and do....
08-29-08, 06:27 AM
#5
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Okay, lets see here:
Poly bushings; yes I do have them in all locations. No, they did not make much difference in ride harshness or noise. The Bilstein shocks I run do not use any type of bushing at the axle connection, more like a SS ball/socket assembly, and that is very loud. I also have solid connections on both swaybars (endlinks), but they don't make nearly as much noise as those shocks do.
Spring rates: This is my daily driver, but it shares that duty with my 328, so I drive it to work about half the time. I would drive it every day, but the bmw gets twice the gas mileage and its like 40 miles each way. I think the 7 averages about 150 - 200 miles/week. The ride is definitely firm, but not uncomfortable. This, of course, depends on the roads. With some of the really rough roads downtown, I will sometimes hit my head on the ceiling. lol.
Overall, there is not a whole lot of difference between the "ride" of the coilovers compared to the RB springs, but the handling difference it huge. You figure, the difference in spring rate is maybe 100 Lbs (?) on the front and 25 on the back, but that's carrying a 2200 Lb car so it kind of dampens the effect I guess. I think the shocks make a much bigger difference than the springs. Illuminas set at 5 will bust your kidneys on rough roads, but set at 1 they aren't bad at all. When I had the Illuminas front/rear, I'd set them to a 2 or 3 for daily driving, or on 1 if it was a long trip. You've got to love the adjustability.
As far as the rates themselves, I think a lot of racers would tell you they're too light because I see a lot of them running 350# and up on the front. I just didn't see the need for anything that extreme, I think the handling is pretty well dialed in right now. Besides, I don't want to make my baby undriveable like I have seen some guys do either intentionally or accidentally. Also, I see a lot of those cars actually "skipping" across the pavement on a lot of turns, and with a slightly less aggressive spring rate you spend more time with the rubber on the road, which means more grip.
I think a lot of guys try to use spring rates to control body roll. When the body rolls, it changes your suspension geometry, so it does need to be controlled. But the proper way to do it is through the use of good swaybars. Lowering the car through the use of coilovers also helps a lot.
If you look at some of my videos where I have the race rubber on, watch the gap between the top of the tire and the fender while cornering. There is almost no change at all, even on the hardest of corners. So, in my opinion, extreme spring rates are not needed.
Poly bushings; yes I do have them in all locations. No, they did not make much difference in ride harshness or noise. The Bilstein shocks I run do not use any type of bushing at the axle connection, more like a SS ball/socket assembly, and that is very loud. I also have solid connections on both swaybars (endlinks), but they don't make nearly as much noise as those shocks do.
Spring rates: This is my daily driver, but it shares that duty with my 328, so I drive it to work about half the time. I would drive it every day, but the bmw gets twice the gas mileage and its like 40 miles each way. I think the 7 averages about 150 - 200 miles/week. The ride is definitely firm, but not uncomfortable. This, of course, depends on the roads. With some of the really rough roads downtown, I will sometimes hit my head on the ceiling. lol.
Overall, there is not a whole lot of difference between the "ride" of the coilovers compared to the RB springs, but the handling difference it huge. You figure, the difference in spring rate is maybe 100 Lbs (?) on the front and 25 on the back, but that's carrying a 2200 Lb car so it kind of dampens the effect I guess. I think the shocks make a much bigger difference than the springs. Illuminas set at 5 will bust your kidneys on rough roads, but set at 1 they aren't bad at all. When I had the Illuminas front/rear, I'd set them to a 2 or 3 for daily driving, or on 1 if it was a long trip. You've got to love the adjustability.
As far as the rates themselves, I think a lot of racers would tell you they're too light because I see a lot of them running 350# and up on the front. I just didn't see the need for anything that extreme, I think the handling is pretty well dialed in right now. Besides, I don't want to make my baby undriveable like I have seen some guys do either intentionally or accidentally. Also, I see a lot of those cars actually "skipping" across the pavement on a lot of turns, and with a slightly less aggressive spring rate you spend more time with the rubber on the road, which means more grip.
I think a lot of guys try to use spring rates to control body roll. When the body rolls, it changes your suspension geometry, so it does need to be controlled. But the proper way to do it is through the use of good swaybars. Lowering the car through the use of coilovers also helps a lot.
If you look at some of my videos where I have the race rubber on, watch the gap between the top of the tire and the fender while cornering. There is almost no change at all, even on the hardest of corners. So, in my opinion, extreme spring rates are not needed.
08-29-08, 11:10 AM
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Thanks for the input. I'm just starting to get the plan together for building my 7, and don't want to waste money doing things twice. (edit: can't) I've been watching your threads fairly closely and watched all your videos. Looks like you have a ton of fun! The last set of vids on your race rubber was really impressive, and you really have basically no noticable body roll. I am a big advocate of tuning with anti-sway bars vs. springs as well. I don't plan on using any "heim joint" style connections anywhere. I have those on the rear bar on my Protege, and am pretty sick of the noise.
We vacation in Michigan every year or two. (Not this year though) If I make it up there next year, would there be a chance of going for a ride?
We vacation in Michigan every year or two. (Not this year though) If I make it up there next year, would there be a chance of going for a ride?
08-29-08, 02:51 PM
#7
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Absolutely. Just shoot me a message and we'll hook up. Always happy to help out, or get together for a cold one. Nice to see other cars too. Last weekend I met a guy with a 13b turbo in a mazda glc. He does like 9 second quarter miles with it! It sounded awesome!
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08-31-08, 09:33 PM
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Cool, thanks man. 9 second glc sounds like quite the ride! Love to see that thing run! There are a few 8 and 9 second street cars running around my neck of the woods, but no rotarys, yet. The guy that I hope is going to paint my car may have the first one though. He is going to build a 1963 VW Bug with a 350+ horse 13b turbo this winter. He has the bug, the transaxle, and the conversion kit, but he needs to finish some of his customers cars before he gets the engine. Should be interesting!
BTW, any plans for the Respeed Rack and Peanut kit? Would that knock you out of CSP?
BTW, any plans for the Respeed Rack and Peanut kit? Would that knock you out of CSP?
Last edited by 4giglz; 08-31-08 at 09:35 PM.
09-01-08, 08:37 AM
#10
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Yes, unfortunately the R&P would bump me into the monster class. I figure I'll end up there someday anyway, but not before I have the power to hold my own. Still a lot left to be done to the car before she could handle that kind of power too, at least in my opinion.
That's the problem with the whole idea. If you want 300 hp, then you have to upgrade the brakes to handle it. Then the brakes overpower the tires, so you need to get some huge tires and larger wheels. Now you have these huge wheels sticking out of the body, so you need a wide body kit. Then you're dealing with high speeds, so you'd better get a roll cage. And so on, and so on....
And that's not even considering all the **** you had to go through just to get 300 horse! So, for now, I'm perfectly happy staying in CSP....
That's the problem with the whole idea. If you want 300 hp, then you have to upgrade the brakes to handle it. Then the brakes overpower the tires, so you need to get some huge tires and larger wheels. Now you have these huge wheels sticking out of the body, so you need a wide body kit. Then you're dealing with high speeds, so you'd better get a roll cage. And so on, and so on....
And that's not even considering all the **** you had to go through just to get 300 horse!
So, for now, I'm perfectly happy staying in CSP....
09-01-08, 01:24 PM
#11
common sense prevails....
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Hey folks just got back from vacation and catching up on reading. This all looks like good information!!! Keep it coming. I believe my next purchase will be from RESPEED. Looking at the coilovers, shocks, swaybars, etc. I also will be adding in a set of either Bogart or Diamond wheels and the big Hoosiers.
This should get me having fun for a while. Of course I will be doing the CSP (limited) engine mods as well.
Thanks for the info!!!
This should get me having fun for a while. Of course I will be doing the CSP (limited) engine mods as well.
Thanks for the info!!!
09-01-08, 03:33 PM
#12
djessence
Hey folks just got back from vacation and catching up on reading. This all looks like good information!!! Keep it coming. I believe my next purchase will be from RESPEED. Looking at the coilovers, shocks, swaybars, etc. I also will be adding in a set of either Bogart or Diamond wheels and the big Hoosiers.
This should get me having fun for a while. Of course I will be doing the CSP (limited) engine mods as well.
Thanks for the info!!!
This should get me having fun for a while. Of course I will be doing the CSP (limited) engine mods as well.
Thanks for the info!!!
09-01-08, 08:10 PM
#15
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Dude, you should be killing the Z cars! I used to be into them before I got my 7, and my last Z was a 73 240 which I loved, but it died of underbody rust. When I was looking for a replacement, I came across my current love. They're nice cars, but they're pretty heavy. Keep at it, I'm sure you'll reel them in eventually.
Now, if the MR2 is a 2nd gen, then I can feel your pain. I beat our local hotshot for the first time this year, and it was just by the skin of my teeth. I couldn't have done it without the Hoosiers. But he has always had big sticky tires when we've raced before, and we've been having some good hearted sport for a couple of years now. Unfortunately, he only showed up for one race so far this year.
Now, if the MR2 is a 2nd gen, then I can feel your pain.
I beat our local hotshot for the first time this year, and it was just by the skin of my teeth. I couldn't have done it without the Hoosiers. But he has always had big sticky tires when we've raced before, and we've been having some good hearted sport for a couple of years now. Unfortunately, he only showed up for one race so far this year.
09-05-08, 11:27 AM
#18
common sense prevails....
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I raced a Miata in C stock once and it seemed effortless because of the power steering. Might need to start working out with more than just 12 ounce curls!!!
09-06-08, 12:32 PM
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I have an old GSL with power steering, and it's the parts car. Recomend the switch or not? I know the Miatas feel better with the manual, but then again, they are R&P. If I decide to just play around in the street tire class, what would be the ramifications of the Respeed R&P set up? I'm not out to be the next Randy Probst or anything, just have fun and not completely embarass myself.
09-06-08, 04:41 PM
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Well, if you intend to autocross then the rack/pinion would knock you into sm2, which is where all the monster cars play. I'd love to have one if not for that.
Whether or not to install power steering, I don't really know. I think it would be an advantage in tight sections, but then you're going to drag that extra weight with you through every other turn. I haven't ever driven a 7 with power steering, let alone race one, so I can't really say where the advantage would be.
And yeah, those 1st gen mr2s can be tough too if they've got a good driver and tires. I always wanted one of those when I was younger and they were newer. Now I have a minivan that's powered by that same supercharged motor. Yes, its true, I own a supercharged minivan. My wife can get a kid to the emergency room faster than any other damn soccer mom, no doubt about it..... lol
Whether or not to install power steering, I don't really know. I think it would be an advantage in tight sections, but then you're going to drag that extra weight with you through every other turn. I haven't ever driven a 7 with power steering, let alone race one, so I can't really say where the advantage would be.
And yeah, those 1st gen mr2s can be tough too if they've got a good driver and tires. I always wanted one of those when I was younger and they were newer. Now I have a minivan that's powered by that same supercharged motor. Yes, its true, I own a supercharged minivan. My wife can get a kid to the emergency room faster than any other damn soccer mom, no doubt about it..... lol
