13Bre in a First-Gen?
01-13-03, 04:16 PM
#26
Rotary Enthusiast
Mounts - The 12A timing cover is the issue. If it fits, then it should install as easily as any 13B. Someone mentioned the height. It does look very tall, so hopefully it'll fit under the bonnet.
ECU - Just run a Haltech or Microtech or whatever. You'll be throwing the emissions out the door, but with a good tuner you should make equal or better power. It probably won't take long until the big workshops get an idea of the best A/F ratios and the like.
Price - Who knows, probably a lot, at least to start with.
Tranny - I reckon the 6 speed would be pretty cool. Otherwise, maybe the TII tranny will bolt up, and that's a common mod into 1st gens. Custom drive shaft, and depending on how you drive it, a better diff.
Sounds like fun to me.
Also, someone will eventually turbocharge it. And I'm sure they'll be succesful. From what I understand there is more flow through the SP than the stock PP exhaust, although it may run cooler, and I'm not sure on the velocity of the gasses. It will happen though!
ECU - Just run a Haltech or Microtech or whatever. You'll be throwing the emissions out the door, but with a good tuner you should make equal or better power. It probably won't take long until the big workshops get an idea of the best A/F ratios and the like.
Price - Who knows, probably a lot, at least to start with.
Tranny - I reckon the 6 speed would be pretty cool. Otherwise, maybe the TII tranny will bolt up, and that's a common mod into 1st gens. Custom drive shaft, and depending on how you drive it, a better diff.
Sounds like fun to me.
Also, someone will eventually turbocharge it. And I'm sure they'll be succesful. From what I understand there is more flow through the SP than the stock PP exhaust, although it may run cooler, and I'm not sure on the velocity of the gasses. It will happen though!
01-13-03, 04:24 PM
#27
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Mark S
I'm sure it'd be warrantied if you put it in an RX-8. I'm also sure they would NOT warranty it in a 20 year old first gen with a home made wiring harness.
I'm sure it'd be warrantied if you put it in an RX-8. I'm also sure they would NOT warranty it in a 20 year old first gen with a home made wiring harness.
Originally posted by Mark S
Is the spark timing different? Can an older ignition system be used instead of the one on the renesis? This presents a small problem. All Vehicles made after 95 have at least an OBD 2 computer. This computer will kick into limp home mode if your fuel cap is loose. If you think you can figure out how to wire the stock computer (because following a wiring diagram is Soooo easy) than be my guest.
Is the spark timing different? Can an older ignition system be used instead of the one on the renesis? This presents a small problem. All Vehicles made after 95 have at least an OBD 2 computer. This computer will kick into limp home mode if your fuel cap is loose. If you think you can figure out how to wire the stock computer (because following a wiring diagram is Soooo easy) than be my guest.
01-13-03, 04:43 PM
#28
Who is "they"? There are a lot of places to buy warrantied motors, that can be put in the car of your choice. Which one are you referring to?
The only people I know of making renesis motors right now are mazda, if you know of anyone else, please post a link.
The stock computer CAN'T be used to control the Renesis engine. It will need help, and if you're going to try to control everything with add-on parts, you might as well go full aftermarket. An easier approach would be to use the Renesis ECU, if you can get your hands on one. Wiring diagrams are just lines with labels. What makes them hard to understand is not having the patience to go through it carefully.
I don't understand exactly what you're saying here. I agree, stand-alone is the best way to go. But even if you get an engine from mazda, it's not going to have an EFI system bolted up to it. It'll be a long block at most.
If you get a used motor from an 8, you really cant use the ecu unless you get ALL the anciliary systems and harnesses. And then, make them fit in the first gen. An OBD2 ECU is much more complex, than any computer used in a 7 to date, and will Kick a code if you try to modify most systems. You would need the entire evaporative emmissions system off the 8, as well as the exhaust, the electric air pump, etc. Yes a wiring diagram is just a series of lines. In this case, those lines go to a shitload of expensive sensors and systems located all over the car. It would be a ******* nightmare.
What I was alluding to when I was talking about using an older form of ignition system is either using a simple distributer off an pre 85 car, or using a CAS off of a second gen. All it does is put out a signal indicating where the engine is in it's cycle. You could then enter that signal into an aftermarket ecu and modify it to fire the coils at the appropriate time.
The only people I know of making renesis motors right now are mazda, if you know of anyone else, please post a link.
The stock computer CAN'T be used to control the Renesis engine. It will need help, and if you're going to try to control everything with add-on parts, you might as well go full aftermarket. An easier approach would be to use the Renesis ECU, if you can get your hands on one. Wiring diagrams are just lines with labels. What makes them hard to understand is not having the patience to go through it carefully.
I don't understand exactly what you're saying here. I agree, stand-alone is the best way to go. But even if you get an engine from mazda, it's not going to have an EFI system bolted up to it. It'll be a long block at most.
If you get a used motor from an 8, you really cant use the ecu unless you get ALL the anciliary systems and harnesses. And then, make them fit in the first gen. An OBD2 ECU is much more complex, than any computer used in a 7 to date, and will Kick a code if you try to modify most systems. You would need the entire evaporative emmissions system off the 8, as well as the exhaust, the electric air pump, etc. Yes a wiring diagram is just a series of lines. In this case, those lines go to a shitload of expensive sensors and systems located all over the car. It would be a ******* nightmare.
What I was alluding to when I was talking about using an older form of ignition system is either using a simple distributer off an pre 85 car, or using a CAS off of a second gen. All it does is put out a signal indicating where the engine is in it's cycle. You could then enter that signal into an aftermarket ecu and modify it to fire the coils at the appropriate time.
Last edited by Mark S; 01-13-03 at 04:53 PM.
01-13-03, 05:08 PM
#31
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Mark S
The only people I know of making renesis motors right now are mazda, if you know of anyone else, please post a link.
I don't understand exactly what you're saying here. I agree, stand-alone is the best way to go. But even if you get an engine from mazda, it's not going to have an EFI system bolted up to it. It'll be a long block at most.
The only people I know of making renesis motors right now are mazda, if you know of anyone else, please post a link.
I don't understand exactly what you're saying here. I agree, stand-alone is the best way to go. But even if you get an engine from mazda, it's not going to have an EFI system bolted up to it. It'll be a long block at most.
01-13-03, 05:51 PM
#32
8krpm is not enough
I was *SO* waiting for this thread. I just KNEW someone was gonna bring it up sooner or later, so here I go with my opinions.
#1 - The availability of these through a crate engine program has been debated time and time again it seems. *IF* Mazda decides to release these as crate motors, then your job is going to be tons easier. Pick up a crate motor, slap an ECU on it, make mounts and get a tranny to fit (perhaps the 6-speed from the -8, who knows).
#2 - If you can't buy them in crate form then you have 2 options.
a.) stick it out until some hapless fool in your area shells out the 32k for the loaded deal and smashes the **** out of it. Raid the junkyard before ANYONE ELSE (hah!) and be a happy camper, adapt as above.
b.) buy a "replacement shortblock" from Mazda, slap on accessories somehow, season to taste.
#3 - Exhaust. This shouldn't be hard, take the stock RX-8 manifold, cut, weld, and you're there.
#4 - Turbos. Please note we're talking about a ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY HORSEPOWER gain here over stock trim for a 12A 1st gen. That's like putting a second gen N/A in your car WITH your 12A. So my answer to that is "don't bothor thinking about it until you know more."
There's rumors about a RX-8 Mazdaspeed Edition that's gonna come w/ boost. If this happens go back to #2 and re-evaluate.
And to those saying "the exhaust will be too slow or too cold," it won't. Sure the sizing would be different, but so what? The current incarnations of rotaries have a particular characteristic that lets people put redicliously large turbos on them and tear ***, so the new Renesis may not be quite so well endowed, but it won't mean a properly sized and thought out turbo won't work. Also, about a year ago there were confirmed reports of tuners in the US getting Renesis engines to tinker with and develop gadgets for, they wouldn't release who, it's all very NDA, but there's gonna be goodies for this motor, so we really just have to "wait and see".
The point is, this whole thing is possible, sure, but you've got ALOT of "if's" to muddle through before you can EVEN think about it. #1 is IF you can even get an engine right now. The answer, is no. So you might as well wait and see what the beasts are like. Unless you wanna go to an autoshow where the RX-8 is with some calipers and a pad of paper and start taking measurements.
I don't mean to sound a little cross here, it's just that it's really too early to even think about this. The car nor the engine are not available ANYWHERE yet so it's really too early to speculate.
PS: the RENESIS is NOT a 13B. The 13B is a twin rotor, 1.3litre side intake Preph. exhaust Rotary, the RENESIS is a 1.3litre side intake side exhaust. Assuming that it shares ANYTHING with the 13B is pointless, it may, it may not. I guarantee the housings are going to be different. displacement may be the same, but that does NOT make it a 13B.
I think that's everything
--matt
#1 - The availability of these through a crate engine program has been debated time and time again it seems. *IF* Mazda decides to release these as crate motors, then your job is going to be tons easier. Pick up a crate motor, slap an ECU on it, make mounts and get a tranny to fit (perhaps the 6-speed from the -8, who knows).
#2 - If you can't buy them in crate form then you have 2 options.
a.) stick it out until some hapless fool in your area shells out the 32k for the loaded deal and smashes the **** out of it. Raid the junkyard before ANYONE ELSE (hah!) and be a happy camper, adapt as above.
b.) buy a "replacement shortblock" from Mazda, slap on accessories somehow, season to taste.
#3 - Exhaust. This shouldn't be hard, take the stock RX-8 manifold, cut, weld, and you're there.
#4 - Turbos. Please note we're talking about a ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY HORSEPOWER gain here over stock trim for a 12A 1st gen. That's like putting a second gen N/A in your car WITH your 12A. So my answer to that is "don't bothor thinking about it until you know more."
There's rumors about a RX-8 Mazdaspeed Edition that's gonna come w/ boost. If this happens go back to #2 and re-evaluate.
And to those saying "the exhaust will be too slow or too cold," it won't. Sure the sizing would be different, but so what? The current incarnations of rotaries have a particular characteristic that lets people put redicliously large turbos on them and tear ***, so the new Renesis may not be quite so well endowed, but it won't mean a properly sized and thought out turbo won't work. Also, about a year ago there were confirmed reports of tuners in the US getting Renesis engines to tinker with and develop gadgets for, they wouldn't release who, it's all very NDA, but there's gonna be goodies for this motor, so we really just have to "wait and see".
The point is, this whole thing is possible, sure, but you've got ALOT of "if's" to muddle through before you can EVEN think about it. #1 is IF you can even get an engine right now. The answer, is no. So you might as well wait and see what the beasts are like. Unless you wanna go to an autoshow where the RX-8 is with some calipers and a pad of paper and start taking measurements.
I don't mean to sound a little cross here, it's just that it's really too early to even think about this. The car nor the engine are not available ANYWHERE yet so it's really too early to speculate.
PS: the RENESIS is NOT a 13B. The 13B is a twin rotor, 1.3litre side intake Preph. exhaust Rotary, the RENESIS is a 1.3litre side intake side exhaust. Assuming that it shares ANYTHING with the 13B is pointless, it may, it may not. I guarantee the housings are going to be different. displacement may be the same, but that does NOT make it a 13B.
I think that's everything
--matt
01-13-03, 05:56 PM
#33
Got Boost?
About the ethics of turbocharging the renesis....
Reliability was a problem because mazda was pushing the edge of technology into a realm of its own. No one else was/is producing a Wankel, so they are forced to learn hard lessons about their expiremental weapon. We love'em for it too!! Mazda as all car manufacturers have to do everything in a rushed manner, to get a product to fruition with little expense as possible. All competitive engineering efforts have to. The fact that the second and third gens occasionally had reliablity issues doesn't mean forced induction sucks. Yes higher output means higher wear if nothing is done to counterbalance. Hopefully Mazda has used the past 10 years of R&D to combat some of the issues these past rotary engines exhibited. But even without their major presence, on the track tuners have found ways to make them much more reliable than most piston engines. I've heard that most rotary drag cars can go much farther without rebuilds than their competetors.
So turboing a high-compression (and we no nothing as to what that ratio is.... but using current size and shape of the rotors and housings the maximimum compression ratio the design allows according to Wankel's own research can't be much more than it already is. (I put forth perhaps 10.0:1) So can it be turbocharged..... I'm sure of it.... will it make much more power than 250 with a turbo.... hell yea!! Turbos don't magically change physics. If if is more volumetrically effecient N/A it will benifit even more from the boost. Will you [i]need/[i] stratispheric boost pressures.... no it already is effecient much like a bridgeport of old... and brigeport w/turbo means more hp with less boost, or tons more hp with the same or more.
So will it be worth it to turbocharge a renesis.... YES!! Both turbocharging and installing into a first gen will be seriously expensive.... I personally would try the N/A road first mearly from a finacial stand-point. And the fact that 250 hp is nothing to shake a stick at on a 2400 lbs chassis, but if the money was there, and I already had the engine in I'd be seriously tempted...
Reliability was a problem because mazda was pushing the edge of technology into a realm of its own. No one else was/is producing a Wankel, so they are forced to learn hard lessons about their expiremental weapon. We love'em for it too!! Mazda as all car manufacturers have to do everything in a rushed manner, to get a product to fruition with little expense as possible. All competitive engineering efforts have to. The fact that the second and third gens occasionally had reliablity issues doesn't mean forced induction sucks. Yes higher output means higher wear if nothing is done to counterbalance. Hopefully Mazda has used the past 10 years of R&D to combat some of the issues these past rotary engines exhibited. But even without their major presence, on the track tuners have found ways to make them much more reliable than most piston engines. I've heard that most rotary drag cars can go much farther without rebuilds than their competetors.
So turboing a high-compression (and we no nothing as to what that ratio is.... but using current size and shape of the rotors and housings the maximimum compression ratio the design allows according to Wankel's own research can't be much more than it already is. (I put forth perhaps 10.0:1) So can it be turbocharged..... I'm sure of it.... will it make much more power than 250 with a turbo.... hell yea!! Turbos don't magically change physics. If if is more volumetrically effecient N/A it will benifit even more from the boost. Will you [i]need/[i] stratispheric boost pressures.... no it already is effecient much like a bridgeport of old... and brigeport w/turbo means more hp with less boost, or tons more hp with the same or more.
So will it be worth it to turbocharge a renesis.... YES!! Both turbocharging and installing into a first gen will be seriously expensive.... I personally would try the N/A road first mearly from a finacial stand-point. And the fact that 250 hp is nothing to shake a stick at on a 2400 lbs chassis, but if the money was there, and I already had the engine in I'd be seriously tempted...
01-13-03, 06:18 PM
#34
[i]
PS: the RENESIS is NOT a 13B. The 13B is a twin rotor, 1.3litre side intake Preph. exhaust Rotary, the RENESIS is a 1.3litre side intake side exhaust. Assuming that it shares ANYTHING with the 13B is pointless, it may, it may not. I guarantee the housings are going to be different. displacement may be the same, but that does NOT make it a 13B.
--matt [/B]
PS: the RENESIS is NOT a 13B. The 13B is a twin rotor, 1.3litre side intake Preph. exhaust Rotary, the RENESIS is a 1.3litre side intake side exhaust. Assuming that it shares ANYTHING with the 13B is pointless, it may, it may not. I guarantee the housings are going to be different. displacement may be the same, but that does NOT make it a 13B.
--matt [/B]
01-13-03, 06:37 PM
#35
8krpm is not enough
Originally posted by Mark S
I'm not sure if it's a 13b either, but the "B" designetion refers to the eccentricity (sp?) of the engine. ie how large the gear is on the eccentic shaft. 12As and 13As shared the same level of eccentricity. The 13B, and 20B also share the same. The port config has nothing to do with the designation. (Peripheral Port motors are still refered to as "13b Motors)
I'm not sure if it's a 13b either, but the "B" designetion refers to the eccentricity (sp?) of the engine. ie how large the gear is on the eccentic shaft. 12As and 13As shared the same level of eccentricity. The 13B, and 20B also share the same. The port config has nothing to do with the designation. (Peripheral Port motors are still refered to as "13b Motors)
If Mazda chooses to call the "RENESIS" a 13B anywhere, I'll concede my point, but I think that right now calling the engine a 13B makes people assume that it will have some similar properties to a 13B and that can be counterproductive. I havn't seen any published numbers on Eccentricity, Generated Radius or width of rotors, if anyone has those, please post them as they directly effect the issues of fitment.
Plus, excepting race housings, Mazda never produced a 13B with prepheral intake ports for sale in a production automobile.
Anyway, my point with saying that was simply, the engine is currently referred to as the RENESIS by Mazda, and we should do the same for clarity, if we start saying "13B" and "RX-8" together, someone's bound to assume that they are similar engines, and for all we know right now, they may not be.
(It would be super cool if they were, I'd love a 250HP N/A motor in my GSL-SE, I've already got an ECU
Don't even get me started on the whole 6-speed issue)--matt
01-13-03, 06:41 PM
#36
Got Boost?
Speculation is the name of the game.... I know a lot of money can be made by pure speculation. Speculation is a question of probability..... Is it probable that Mazda tried to change as little as possible for the engine perform as specified by emissions.... Yes. They might massage the front cover slightly, but I bet they aren't that different, why should they be? Is it possible that mazda completely redesigned the front cover.... Yes, anything is possible.
Being that I'm not planning the swap until,at until the engine has been around for awhile, I'm sure I'll find out before buying into one.
Knowing Mazda's past can give insight into how they might wrestle with issues that have been brought up thus far. For instance, transmission bell housings bolt pattern, have they changed it much from the 1970's... No, you can mount any tranny to any rotary, they even haven't changed the pilot bearing for crying out loud! Clutches they have changed, as have flywheels, but that was an engineering must due to increasing torque loads. Besides engine mounting point changes, do you know of any engineering problems that have come up about the front cover, or the bell-to engine bolt points. I don't, but that doesn't mean much. Is it possible.... yes, likely?... No.
There more than enough to speculate. To relize.... only time will tell
Being that I'm not planning the swap until,at until the engine has been around for awhile, I'm sure I'll find out before buying into one.
Knowing Mazda's past can give insight into how they might wrestle with issues that have been brought up thus far. For instance, transmission bell housings bolt pattern, have they changed it much from the 1970's... No, you can mount any tranny to any rotary, they even haven't changed the pilot bearing for crying out loud! Clutches they have changed, as have flywheels, but that was an engineering must due to increasing torque loads. Besides engine mounting point changes, do you know of any engineering problems that have come up about the front cover, or the bell-to engine bolt points. I don't, but that doesn't mean much. Is it possible.... yes, likely?... No.
There more than enough to speculate. To relize.... only time will tell
01-13-03, 06:58 PM
#37
add to cart
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Saskatoon, SK & Montreal, PQ
Posts: 4,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by fatboy7
About the ethics of turbocharging the renesis....
Reliability was a problem because mazda was pushing the edge of technology into a realm of its own. No one else was/is producing a Wankel, so they are forced to learn hard lessons about their expiremental weapon. We love'em for it too!! Mazda as all car manufacturers have to do everything in a rushed manner, to get a product to fruition with little expense as possible. All competitive engineering efforts have to. The fact that the second and third gens occasionally had reliablity issues doesn't mean forced induction sucks. Yes higher output means higher wear if nothing is done to counterbalance. Hopefully Mazda has used the past 10 years of R&D to combat some of the issues these past rotary engines exhibited... So can it be turbocharged..... I'm sure of it.... will it make much more power than 250 with a turbo.... hell yea!! Turbos don't magically change physics.
About the ethics of turbocharging the renesis....
Reliability was a problem because mazda was pushing the edge of technology into a realm of its own. No one else was/is producing a Wankel, so they are forced to learn hard lessons about their expiremental weapon. We love'em for it too!! Mazda as all car manufacturers have to do everything in a rushed manner, to get a product to fruition with little expense as possible. All competitive engineering efforts have to. The fact that the second and third gens occasionally had reliablity issues doesn't mean forced induction sucks. Yes higher output means higher wear if nothing is done to counterbalance. Hopefully Mazda has used the past 10 years of R&D to combat some of the issues these past rotary engines exhibited... So can it be turbocharged..... I'm sure of it.... will it make much more power than 250 with a turbo.... hell yea!! Turbos don't magically change physics.
First gen turbos had reliability issues.
Second gen turbos not so much, but not great.
Third gen twin turbos had huge reliability issues.
This is not a good track record.
I'm sure turbocharging can and will be done, but you'll need to wait for aftermarket parts to become available (different rotors, etc)
As to those going on about 'home-made harnesses', etc.
If you do a search you'll see I've been posting about crated Renesis engines for months. Only now, after over half a year of negotiations with Mazda, are these negotiations going into the home stretch. Dealers haven't even been given part numbers for RX-8 components yet, engines included!
In any event Canada is receiving the RX-8 a few months after the official release in the US, and so I'm dealing with America Mazda on 25 crated Renesis long blocks WITH ECUs and harnesses (it doesn't make sense to sell them without). The package includes associated sensors, intake manifolds, etc.
How in demand are they? Of the 25 engines I'm dealing on I have 34 requests for them, going mainly to FD owners tired of their turbos overheating their car. Will Mazda sell Renesis engines, even crated ones, in ones and twos? Highly unlikely.
01-13-03, 09:30 PM
#38
Are you gonna shift?!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 602
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But why turbocharge a RENESIS? Sure it's 250hp right out of the box, and the vision of a huge turbo making tons of power is nice, but every rotary has it's limit. Whether it's peripheral ports or side ports, 12A, 13B, 1.3L or whatever, it still has apex seals, and they won't last. I'll bet we will see a RENESIS in a 3rd gen chassis before it ever makes it in a first gen. It's still too early, too expensive, and too much of a hassle to even think about swapping in this engine. Like I said earlier, lets just sit back for a while and wait for the companies that make shitloads of $$$ to try this first. Then we will know, and we will follow.
01-13-03, 10:15 PM
#39
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: plymouth, wisconsin
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i think the renesis will do wonders..... if somenoe wants to put it in thier car good luck!!! the renesis is actually smaller than the 13b and i believe it only weighs 270 pounds if i recall correctly, so i dont think you will have any size issues. just let us know how it goes ifyou decide to do it.
01-13-03, 11:12 PM
#40
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,829
Received 2,597 Likes
on
1,845 Posts
Originally posted by speckamp
I was *SO* waiting for this thread. I just KNEW someone was gonna bring it up sooner or later, so here I go with my opinions.
#1 - The availability of these through a crate engine program has been debated time and time again it seems. *IF* Mazda decides to release these as crate motors, then your job is going to be tons easier. Pick up a crate motor, slap an ECU on it, make mounts and get a tranny to fit (perhaps the 6-speed from the -8, who knows).
I was *SO* waiting for this thread. I just KNEW someone was gonna bring it up sooner or later, so here I go with my opinions.
#1 - The availability of these through a crate engine program has been debated time and time again it seems. *IF* Mazda decides to release these as crate motors, then your job is going to be tons easier. Pick up a crate motor, slap an ECU on it, make mounts and get a tranny to fit (perhaps the 6-speed from the -8, who knows).
you can also forget a warranty if the motor does not go into a stock rx8
mike
01-13-03, 11:54 PM
#42
add to cart
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Saskatoon, SK & Montreal, PQ
Posts: 4,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, they DO have a crate engine program (Hint: See my previous post, above), it's just very difficult due to availability. Right now the engines Mazda builds are going into RX-8s and the part #s for crated engines haven't been released yet (part #s being required for dealers to order crated engines)
As to warranty, crated engines often come with warranties whether from a manufacturer or rebuilder. They don't care what chassis you put the engine in - the warranty is for the parts THEY assembled. If you bolt on a turbocharger and blow the engine to smithereens, chances are there's a fat chapter of caveats in the warranty that legally entitles them to laugh in your face should you be silly enough to make a claim.
As to warranty, crated engines often come with warranties whether from a manufacturer or rebuilder. They don't care what chassis you put the engine in - the warranty is for the parts THEY assembled. If you bolt on a turbocharger and blow the engine to smithereens, chances are there's a fat chapter of caveats in the warranty that legally entitles them to laugh in your face should you be silly enough to make a claim.
01-13-03, 11:58 PM
#43
Got Boost?
In all honesty, I doubt it will be any time soon that we'll see a 1st gen-renesis running around for all the things that have been mentioned, most obviously cost. Why spend $$$$$ on transplanting an engine, when a tried tested and true turbo 13B puting down similar powerlevels, more torque for $$$$.
It will be done..... and it will most definately a shop trying to create exposure by the swap, not some random person just due to cost of entry. Now ten years from now, if the RX-8 does well, then it will probably become easier than the older turbo engines that will become more rare. Thats when the tried and true rotary nuts will be dropping the RENESIS into their RX-7s.... but its always fun to dream and speculate
It will be done..... and it will most definately a shop trying to create exposure by the swap, not some random person just due to cost of entry. Now ten years from now, if the RX-8 does well, then it will probably become easier than the older turbo engines that will become more rare. Thats when the tried and true rotary nuts will be dropping the RENESIS into their RX-7s.... but its always fun to dream and speculate
01-14-03, 12:00 AM
#44
Just be the first waiting at the junkyard...when some dingaling totals a brand new RX-8 out 
The original EVOLVE concept car had the RENESIS engine tuned to the Japanese maximum engine rating of 280 HP, so the RENESIS engine has been detuned to 250 in the RX-8 via restrictive intake and exhausts to keep the car quiet plus ECU workings, and further down to 240 in the Formula Mazda. Racing Beat, Mazdatrix and Tri-Point Engineering are all waiting as well as the public to get a hold of an RX-8! MAZDASPEED already has their version out. Just wait and see what happens.
The original EVOLVE concept car had the RENESIS engine tuned to the Japanese maximum engine rating of 280 HP, so the RENESIS engine has been detuned to 250 in the RX-8 via restrictive intake and exhausts to keep the car quiet plus ECU workings, and further down to 240 in the Formula Mazda. Racing Beat, Mazdatrix and Tri-Point Engineering are all waiting as well as the public to get a hold of an RX-8! MAZDASPEED already has their version out. Just wait and see what happens.
01-14-03, 12:25 AM
#45
Full Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems to me, it's obvious the Renesis would out-weigh any other rotory option if similarly priced for the hardware. It's lighter, designed for higher RPM's, and has a better burn cycle. Not to mention less apex trauma coming off those ports in the housings. They can probably seal that thing up really well now. They also have less vibration and probably a hell of a lot better power curve. Remember, it's not just peak HP and torque, it's the area under the curve that moves you.
Here's how I see it.
1) You aren't anyway, no how, don't even think about it, putting a 12a cover on a Rensis. That's crazy talk and wastes thread space. All you need to do is have you local welder make a front brace that adapts the two mushroom mounts to what ever style front bolts the Renesis uses. End of discussion. Did it myself with a friend, adapting V8's to tractors, made motor mounts to fit them.
2) Going to need a Rensis tranny more than likely, doubt the smaller engine will mount to our pattern. If it did it would be too much torque on the tranny. Not too mention instant over rev's do to a lower gear ratio for the increased hp.
3) Don't even consider using the Rensis ECU and EFI system. If you do, just buy the RX-8 and get it over with. You're going to have to go with a complete aftermarket EFI. I have been pricing them with ECU and they go from around 1500 to 2500 depending on bells and whistles.
4) Don't forget crank angle sensor to fire the ECU. Maybe a mix of an MSI Digital system and an aftermarket ECU would be nice.
5) After market ECU's just need 1 O2 sensor, simple enough.
So that's it,
1) Front brace (150 to 200 bucks)
2) Block (Who knows 3 to 4 k?)
3) Tranny (2 to 3 k)
4) EFI system (With custom intake or adapt mazda's manifold) (2k roughly)
5) MSD Ignition (500 bucks give or take)
6) Crank angle sensor (75 to 300)
As for the rear end stuff, it would have to be changed no matter what 250 hp system you drop in there.
So Easy 10 k.
10k plus 400 bucks a month for 60 months will get you a complete RX8. If you wreck it then you have all the parts you need ).
Here's how I see it.
1) You aren't anyway, no how, don't even think about it, putting a 12a cover on a Rensis. That's crazy talk and wastes thread space. All you need to do is have you local welder make a front brace that adapts the two mushroom mounts to what ever style front bolts the Renesis uses. End of discussion. Did it myself with a friend, adapting V8's to tractors, made motor mounts to fit them.
2) Going to need a Rensis tranny more than likely, doubt the smaller engine will mount to our pattern. If it did it would be too much torque on the tranny. Not too mention instant over rev's do to a lower gear ratio for the increased hp.
3) Don't even consider using the Rensis ECU and EFI system. If you do, just buy the RX-8 and get it over with. You're going to have to go with a complete aftermarket EFI. I have been pricing them with ECU and they go from around 1500 to 2500 depending on bells and whistles.
4) Don't forget crank angle sensor to fire the ECU. Maybe a mix of an MSI Digital system and an aftermarket ECU would be nice.
5) After market ECU's just need 1 O2 sensor, simple enough.
So that's it,
1) Front brace (150 to 200 bucks)
2) Block (Who knows 3 to 4 k?)
3) Tranny (2 to 3 k)
4) EFI system (With custom intake or adapt mazda's manifold) (2k roughly)
5) MSD Ignition (500 bucks give or take)
6) Crank angle sensor (75 to 300)
As for the rear end stuff, it would have to be changed no matter what 250 hp system you drop in there.
So Easy 10 k.
10k plus 400 bucks a month for 60 months will get you a complete RX8. If you wreck it then you have all the parts you need ).
Last edited by Spieder; 01-14-03 at 12:28 AM.
01-14-03, 07:55 AM
#46
8krpm is not enough
Originally posted by j9fd3s
they are using the renisis in the star mazda's so they will have a crate motor program just like last time.
Just because they're using them in race cars to promote themselves does not mean they're going to supply crate motors to the masses. However, from big-list and forum postings, plus knowing Mazda, I bet you will be able to buy crate motors from the aftermarket tuners (Mazdatrix, Racingbeat, ect...) sooner or later.
they will also have some kinda ecu to run the motor, they already have the star mazdas setup running most of the stock efi, including the drive by wire, they had one at sevenstock. the issue is price, and how many hoops they will make you jump thru to get it.
The ECU on the Star Mazda cars is a Motec jobbie. That's probably one of the most popular ECU's for big race rotaries (since it can do split trailing on a 20B and R26B, plus all the bells and whistles) but it isn't cheap. Not even close. I don't think Mazda will sell ECU's for their crate motors, I'd think that'd be left as an exersize for the end user
you can also forget a warranty if the motor does not go into a stock rx8
Warrantee goes with the parts not the car. You buy a motor from Ford in a crate and the motor is waranteed against defects or failure (as long as you follow the terms of the warrantee as far as internal work done to the motor) no matter what it goes in to, Mustang, Cavalier, or dune buggy, they don't care.
they are using the renisis in the star mazda's so they will have a crate motor program just like last time.
Just because they're using them in race cars to promote themselves does not mean they're going to supply crate motors to the masses. However, from big-list and forum postings, plus knowing Mazda, I bet you will be able to buy crate motors from the aftermarket tuners (Mazdatrix, Racingbeat, ect...) sooner or later.
they will also have some kinda ecu to run the motor, they already have the star mazdas setup running most of the stock efi, including the drive by wire, they had one at sevenstock. the issue is price, and how many hoops they will make you jump thru to get it.
The ECU on the Star Mazda cars is a Motec jobbie. That's probably one of the most popular ECU's for big race rotaries (since it can do split trailing on a 20B and R26B, plus all the bells and whistles) but it isn't cheap. Not even close. I don't think Mazda will sell ECU's for their crate motors, I'd think that'd be left as an exersize for the end user
you can also forget a warranty if the motor does not go into a stock rx8
Warrantee goes with the parts not the car. You buy a motor from Ford in a crate and the motor is waranteed against defects or failure (as long as you follow the terms of the warrantee as far as internal work done to the motor) no matter what it goes in to, Mustang, Cavalier, or dune buggy, they don't care.
01-14-03, 08:13 AM
#47
8krpm is not enough
Originally posted by Spieder
It seems to me, it's obvious the Renesis would out-weigh any other rotory option if similarly priced for the hardware. It's lighter, designed for higher RPM's, and has a better burn cycle. Not to mention less apex trauma coming off those ports in the housings. They can probably seal that thing up really well now. They also have less vibration and probably a hell of a lot better power curve. Remember, it's not just peak HP and torque, it's the area under the curve that moves you.
I guess that depends on what you want to do with the car. The cost of the engine doesn't dictate the cost of the project. I can buy a 20B for about what a RENESIS may cost, but putting the 20B into my car will cost more than I made in 2002 I'd bet. Some people prefer the rush and sound of a turbo, some people like the linear response of throttle input. The RENESIS' power curve looks very rotary-like, not unlike most other N/A Rotaries, the only real notable thing is that it's capable of much more power in it's "out of the box" form.
Here's how I see it.
1) You aren't anyway, no how, don't even think about it, putting a 12a cover on a Rensis. That's crazy talk and wastes thread space. All you need to do is have you local welder make a front brace that adapts the two mushroom mounts to what ever style front bolts the Renesis uses. End of discussion. Did it myself with a friend, adapting V8's to tractors, made motor mounts to fit them.
For mounting in a 1st gen, If it'd fit, the GSL-SE front cover would be great option. You don't need to fabricate anything (if the front cover bolts up), so no reason not to do it.
2) Going to need a Rensis tranny more than likely, doubt the smaller engine will mount to our pattern. If it did it would be too much torque on the tranny. Not too mention instant over rev's do to a lower gear ratio for the increased hp.
How is the engine smaller? I'd agree you'ld need a stronger tranny. If it bolts up the TII tranny would be a good option, plus it's tried and tested.
3) Don't even consider using the Rensis ECU and EFI system. If you do, just buy the RX-8 and get it over with. You're going to have to go with a complete aftermarket EFI. I have been pricing them with ECU and they go from around 1500 to 2500 depending on bells and whistles.
I agree totally there.
4) Don't forget crank angle sensor to fire the ECU. Maybe a mix of an MSI Digital system and an aftermarket ECU would be nice.
If you can use a front cover off a 13B then you can use the 2nd / 3rd gen CAS. There ya go
5) After market ECU's just need 1 O2 sensor, simple enough.
So that's it,
1) Front brace (150 to 200 bucks)
2) Block (Who knows 3 to 4 k?)
3) Tranny (2 to 3 k)
4) EFI system (With custom intake or adapt mazda's manifold) (2k roughly)
5) MSD Ignition (500 bucks give or take)
6) Crank angle sensor (75 to 300)
Eh, could be alot less for tranny and for the CAS if you can use other RX-7 hardware. I'd hope so, but I wouldn't count on it just yet
As for the rear end stuff, it would have to be changed no matter what 250 hp system you drop in there.
Hrm, well that's not 100% true depending on how you're gonna drive the car. But for 1 or 2k you can get and install a Torsen diff from Mazdaspeed that'll handle the power and then some.
So Easy 10 k.
eh, depending on how wild you want to get.
10k plus 400 bucks a month for 60 months will get you a complete RX8. If you wreck it then you have all the parts you need ).
I can't afford either, so right now it's just wanking, but it's always fun to ****. Becides, my insurance on my 3000$ 85 GSL-SE is 200$/6 months, I'd be very VERY suprised if my insurance would say that low on a 32000$ car.
Then there's always the "plus 400 bucks a month for 60 months." Some people might be able to scrape up the money to toss the motor in, but it might be hard to commit 400$/month for the next few years.
It seems to me, it's obvious the Renesis would out-weigh any other rotory option if similarly priced for the hardware. It's lighter, designed for higher RPM's, and has a better burn cycle. Not to mention less apex trauma coming off those ports in the housings. They can probably seal that thing up really well now. They also have less vibration and probably a hell of a lot better power curve. Remember, it's not just peak HP and torque, it's the area under the curve that moves you.
I guess that depends on what you want to do with the car. The cost of the engine doesn't dictate the cost of the project. I can buy a 20B for about what a RENESIS may cost, but putting the 20B into my car will cost more than I made in 2002 I'd bet. Some people prefer the rush and sound of a turbo, some people like the linear response of throttle input. The RENESIS' power curve looks very rotary-like, not unlike most other N/A Rotaries, the only real notable thing is that it's capable of much more power in it's "out of the box" form.
Here's how I see it.
1) You aren't anyway, no how, don't even think about it, putting a 12a cover on a Rensis. That's crazy talk and wastes thread space. All you need to do is have you local welder make a front brace that adapts the two mushroom mounts to what ever style front bolts the Renesis uses. End of discussion. Did it myself with a friend, adapting V8's to tractors, made motor mounts to fit them.
For mounting in a 1st gen, If it'd fit, the GSL-SE front cover would be great option. You don't need to fabricate anything (if the front cover bolts up), so no reason not to do it.
2) Going to need a Rensis tranny more than likely, doubt the smaller engine will mount to our pattern. If it did it would be too much torque on the tranny. Not too mention instant over rev's do to a lower gear ratio for the increased hp.
How is the engine smaller? I'd agree you'ld need a stronger tranny. If it bolts up the TII tranny would be a good option, plus it's tried and tested.
3) Don't even consider using the Rensis ECU and EFI system. If you do, just buy the RX-8 and get it over with. You're going to have to go with a complete aftermarket EFI. I have been pricing them with ECU and they go from around 1500 to 2500 depending on bells and whistles.
I agree totally there.
4) Don't forget crank angle sensor to fire the ECU. Maybe a mix of an MSI Digital system and an aftermarket ECU would be nice.
If you can use a front cover off a 13B then you can use the 2nd / 3rd gen CAS. There ya go
5) After market ECU's just need 1 O2 sensor, simple enough.
So that's it,
1) Front brace (150 to 200 bucks)
2) Block (Who knows 3 to 4 k?)
3) Tranny (2 to 3 k)
4) EFI system (With custom intake or adapt mazda's manifold) (2k roughly)
5) MSD Ignition (500 bucks give or take)
6) Crank angle sensor (75 to 300)
Eh, could be alot less for tranny and for the CAS if you can use other RX-7 hardware. I'd hope so, but I wouldn't count on it just yet
As for the rear end stuff, it would have to be changed no matter what 250 hp system you drop in there.
Hrm, well that's not 100% true depending on how you're gonna drive the car. But for 1 or 2k you can get and install a Torsen diff from Mazdaspeed that'll handle the power and then some.
So Easy 10 k.
eh, depending on how wild you want to get.
10k plus 400 bucks a month for 60 months will get you a complete RX8. If you wreck it then you have all the parts you need ).
I can't afford either, so right now it's just wanking, but it's always fun to ****. Becides, my insurance on my 3000$ 85 GSL-SE is 200$/6 months, I'd be very VERY suprised if my insurance would say that low on a 32000$ car.
Then there's always the "plus 400 bucks a month for 60 months." Some people might be able to scrape up the money to toss the motor in, but it might be hard to commit 400$/month for the next few years.
--matt
01-14-03, 11:22 AM
#48
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,829
Received 2,597 Likes
on
1,845 Posts
you know its gonna be fun when they actually start showing up, look at all the dabate right now!
mike
mike
01-14-03, 12:22 PM
#49
add to cart
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Saskatoon, SK & Montreal, PQ
Posts: 4,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by speckamp
Just because they're using them in race cars to promote themselves does not mean they're going to supply crate motors to the masses.
Just because they're using them in race cars to promote themselves does not mean they're going to supply crate motors to the masses.
I don't think Mazda will sell ECU's for their crate motors, I'd think that'd be left as an exersize for the end user
Warrantee goes with the parts not the car. You buy a motor from Ford in a crate and the motor is waranteed against defects or failure (as long as you follow the terms of the warrantee as far as internal work done to the motor) no matter what it goes in to, Mustang, Cavalier, or dune buggy, they don't care.
That seems to be something most people overlook. Yes, the engines come warrantied as long as you don't rechip them (hence stock ECUs, not Motec), switch housings (the 12A idea, above) or force induction (turbo or S/C, which the Renesis rotors are not intended for)
01-14-03, 12:52 PM
#50
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,829
Received 2,597 Likes
on
1,845 Posts
Originally posted by Manntis
Here here That seems to be something most people overlook. Yes, the engines come warrantied as long as you don't rechip them (hence stock ECUs, not Motec), switch housings (the 12A idea, above) or force induction (turbo or S/C, which the Renesis rotors are not intended for)
Here here
That seems to be something most people overlook. Yes, the engines come warrantied as long as you don't rechip them (hence stock ECUs, not Motec), switch housings (the 12A idea, above) or force induction (turbo or S/C, which the Renesis rotors are not intended for)
mike