Coil Over reading for street car and why it isn't worth it...
02-02-04, 02:59 PM
#1
Coil Over reading for street car and why it isn't worth it...
A friend of mine passed a link from an audi forum IIRC about a coil over setup for street driven cars. I went through it and I am not convinced I don't want nor do I need coil overs. What do you all think? quoted below is the length of what I read. Its very interesting.
Santiago
Santiago
This is reprinted from the pages of BIRA. There was also a very similar article in the last Quattro Quarterly.
Fully-Adjustable Coilover Suspension for the street? You sure you wanna do that?
Are you committed to buying an adjustable coil-over suspension for the car? Contrary to Audiworld opinion, an adjustable coil-over suspension on a street car is a poor idea and can hurt the handling of the car. Allow me to explain.
The whole purpose of a fully-adjustable coil-over suspension (FACOS - not an industry term) is, as expected, adjustability (do you know that you already have coilover suspension, stock?) However, with that adjustability is a LOT of setup requirements. If you don't setup the suspension properly, you are almost guaranteed to make your car handle worse than stock. It might ride stiffer, and look lower, but it won't handle better. See, the FACOS give you not only the ability to adjust ride height, but corner weights as well. If the corner weight is not set correctly then you end up with cross-weight all out of whack and the car's handling becomes unpredictable.
Think of corner weights this way: you take a four-legged stool with all legs the same length. When you sit on that chair, all four legs are touching the ground evenly, pushing down onto the ground evenly, if you will, and the chair doesn't rock. If you were to place scales under each leg you would find that with your weight perfectly balanced in the center of the chair all four scales would read equally. Lean one way or another and you'll find that the weight will be shifting from scale to scale but the chair will continue to be steady and not rock. The reason is because of one unique thing: the sum of the opposing corners will always equal each other. In other words, the LF plus the RR weight will always equal the RF plus the LR weight.
But, suppose you slightly trim one chair leg, say 1/16". Now, the chair is going to rock slightly, because more of the weight is being held by the opposing corner legs. In fact, if you're good at balancing, then 100% of the weight will only be on two legs, while the other two legs aren't even touching the ground. The LF+RR weight will be LESS than the RF+LR weight.
This is the idea behind corner weights on a car. FACOS is adjustable not just for ride height (different length springs will do the same thing); the goal is to adjust each spring independently so that the cross weights are identical. You'll still have more weight in the sum of the fronts versus the sum of the rears (and you can adjust that to a degree with spring rates), but when the sum of the cross weights are equal the car will handle the same left to right and will be MUCH more predictable.
If, for instance, you have too much weight LF/RR than RF/LR, the car will turn in nice and sharp to the right, but will understeer in transit through the corner, and probably during exit. To the left the car will lean over more, transfer a lot of weight during the turn in, and then probably oversteer through the corner. It won't be fun to drive either way, and you'll be scratching your head trying to figure out why it's an evil-handling car.
To set up a car properly with a FACOS, you:
- install your suspension and set the spring perches about where you figure you'll need them for ride height, and equal all around.
- put the car on the ground and test ride height. Ride height is set to either race prep rules (minimum ride height) or to the lowest you can for the conditions. Those "conditions" are either external limitations (don't want the exhaust or spoiler to drag the ground) or internal (wheel clearance or bump stops.) That ride height also has to be adjusted based by testing to determine that you have enough suspension travel and the suspension doesn't bottom out; if you bottom out the suspension you're making your "spring rate" go infinite and you've just wasted all your money on an adjustable suspension. Also, don't forget the ride height is adjustable front and rear, left and right.
- After the ride height is set then the car needs to be aligned to spec. That "spec" is either to the factory limits (which you will likely never be able to obtain with a lowered car) or to values based on track testing, tire pyrometer temperatures, tire pressure results, and driver feedback.
- Once the ride height and alignment is set, then the car needs to be placed on four independent scales. These scales will give you the corner weights that you need to know to set the suspension properly. The nifty versions of the scales are digital and radio-transmitted, and give you a display box you can take with you around the car while the car is on a lift on the scales and you adjust the suspension with another display that does the math for you (about $2000 minimum for ones like that). What you want to do is adjust each spring perch independently so that the sums of the cross-weights match. If a corner is low, you extend the spring perch (chair leg) to put more weight on that corner. Of course, that will then affect all 3 other corners, so you have to go around and around until you get the numbers you want.
Of course, this is all assuming that you're running the springs you want, because a change in the spring rate will cause height to change and all those adjustments to go out the window...
- once you've made all the corner weights perfect, you have to go back and check the ride height, because it's quite possible that all the corner weight adjustment has changed the ride height. If so, start all over again. Don't settle on "good enough"; the whole point of getting FACOS is to get it RIGHT, right?
Then, once it's all set, it's time to go to the race track. Start on the skidpad and check handling. Slight changes in alignment and ride height will help you here (with associated updates to corner weights), but if you need to change front-to-rear bias for better handling you have to change springs (but, of course, one of the big advantages to FACOS is that it uses standard springs - you get to pick-and-choose your spring rates for each end.) Change the springs, start from the top, Maestro! You can also tune the corner-weights for a particular race track, like Lime Rock which is all right turns save one; of course that will make it suck on the street where you're going to be hard-pressed to find only right-hand turns...
You asked if the springs can be installed for $200? Dude, you can't even properly align and setup the car with the springs INSTALLED for $200!!!
Whew! Have I gotten my point across?
I have a FACOS on my little Nissan race car, but I have a $1200 set of scales. We'll spend an entire day on initial suspension setup, and constantly twiddle with it at the track.
I would NEVER install FACOS on my street car. The ironic part is that any "tuner" worth his salt has gone through all the above with an adjustable suspension, tested it to perfection of spring rates, travel, and ride height and alignment, and then took those specs and developed a comparable off-the-shelf replacement spring to give you something probably DAMN close to what you're gonna end up with on a FACOS. It just makes no sense to have all that adjustability, ESPECIALLY considering that when you finally get it set up you'll likely NEVER change it! Because if you do, you've got to start all over from the top. Kinda silly to have that adjustability when it ain't ever gonna be adjusted...
Installing a fully-adjustable coil-over suspension on a car without properly setting it up is either posin' or pissin' in the wind. It may look nice in your sigline, but you're actually hurting the car's handling.
As an alternative, consider the costs of finding a top-notch set of adjustable shocks and aftermarket springs, and paying someone to swap out the springs twice a year like you would for snow tires. You'll pay a bit annually in labor, but you'll be using a proven solution that anyone with an alignment rack can deal with.
Unfortunately, since I'm not very knowledgeable about the TT specifically, I'll have to defer specific suspension suggestions to others. What I suggest is to drive other same-type cars that have the various combinations you're interested in. It's *you* that has to live with those combos, not me and not the guy that claims his suspension is the best, and your tastes will vary from mine and his. There's nothing better than actually riding in or driving a car that has a spring/shock candidate. Don't take others' words for it, try it yourself and decide what your compromise is.
And it will be a compromise. "The Ultimate" for the track will be unacceptable for going to work, while a sportier suspension will give you a better handling car without leaving most of your undercoating on the parking lot speed bump or requiring monthly dental visits.
I just thought of something else you really should do with FACOS: have adjustable-end swaybars. In racing, swaybars are a tuning device, not a suspension device; you size the suspension springs to give you the weight balance and anti-roll that you want, THEN you apply swaybars to tune the balance of the car.
If the bars are attached during the suspension setup phase, then a bar may have a load (or "torsion") applied to it, screwing up your actual cross-weights (one end of the bar will lift a wheel, while the other end is pushing down). AFTER the car is set up you install swaybars with adjustable Heim-joint end to install it with no preload at all. If you don't have adjustable end bars, you'll have to force one end into place, preloading it, and screwing up all the work you just did.
For the street, bars are a nice compromise. Since street cars need to have a somewhat-compliant ride, swaybars are a way to make the car "feel" like it has stiffer springs on the outside corner of a turn. When a car rolls, the inside wheel drops relative to the car, pulling down on the bar which pulls down on the outside tire, forcing it into the pavement. It "thinks" it has a stiffer spring. Of course, if you lift the inside wheel off the ground then you've reached the limit of the bar's capability and it doesn't work any harder.
Lots of things to think about. I'd like to think the off-the-shelf "tuners" have put that much thought into their products.
Fully-Adjustable Coilover Suspension for the street? You sure you wanna do that?
Are you committed to buying an adjustable coil-over suspension for the car? Contrary to Audiworld opinion, an adjustable coil-over suspension on a street car is a poor idea and can hurt the handling of the car. Allow me to explain.
The whole purpose of a fully-adjustable coil-over suspension (FACOS - not an industry term) is, as expected, adjustability (do you know that you already have coilover suspension, stock?) However, with that adjustability is a LOT of setup requirements. If you don't setup the suspension properly, you are almost guaranteed to make your car handle worse than stock. It might ride stiffer, and look lower, but it won't handle better. See, the FACOS give you not only the ability to adjust ride height, but corner weights as well. If the corner weight is not set correctly then you end up with cross-weight all out of whack and the car's handling becomes unpredictable.
Think of corner weights this way: you take a four-legged stool with all legs the same length. When you sit on that chair, all four legs are touching the ground evenly, pushing down onto the ground evenly, if you will, and the chair doesn't rock. If you were to place scales under each leg you would find that with your weight perfectly balanced in the center of the chair all four scales would read equally. Lean one way or another and you'll find that the weight will be shifting from scale to scale but the chair will continue to be steady and not rock. The reason is because of one unique thing: the sum of the opposing corners will always equal each other. In other words, the LF plus the RR weight will always equal the RF plus the LR weight.
But, suppose you slightly trim one chair leg, say 1/16". Now, the chair is going to rock slightly, because more of the weight is being held by the opposing corner legs. In fact, if you're good at balancing, then 100% of the weight will only be on two legs, while the other two legs aren't even touching the ground. The LF+RR weight will be LESS than the RF+LR weight.
This is the idea behind corner weights on a car. FACOS is adjustable not just for ride height (different length springs will do the same thing); the goal is to adjust each spring independently so that the cross weights are identical. You'll still have more weight in the sum of the fronts versus the sum of the rears (and you can adjust that to a degree with spring rates), but when the sum of the cross weights are equal the car will handle the same left to right and will be MUCH more predictable.
If, for instance, you have too much weight LF/RR than RF/LR, the car will turn in nice and sharp to the right, but will understeer in transit through the corner, and probably during exit. To the left the car will lean over more, transfer a lot of weight during the turn in, and then probably oversteer through the corner. It won't be fun to drive either way, and you'll be scratching your head trying to figure out why it's an evil-handling car.
To set up a car properly with a FACOS, you:
- install your suspension and set the spring perches about where you figure you'll need them for ride height, and equal all around.
- put the car on the ground and test ride height. Ride height is set to either race prep rules (minimum ride height) or to the lowest you can for the conditions. Those "conditions" are either external limitations (don't want the exhaust or spoiler to drag the ground) or internal (wheel clearance or bump stops.) That ride height also has to be adjusted based by testing to determine that you have enough suspension travel and the suspension doesn't bottom out; if you bottom out the suspension you're making your "spring rate" go infinite and you've just wasted all your money on an adjustable suspension. Also, don't forget the ride height is adjustable front and rear, left and right.
- After the ride height is set then the car needs to be aligned to spec. That "spec" is either to the factory limits (which you will likely never be able to obtain with a lowered car) or to values based on track testing, tire pyrometer temperatures, tire pressure results, and driver feedback.
- Once the ride height and alignment is set, then the car needs to be placed on four independent scales. These scales will give you the corner weights that you need to know to set the suspension properly. The nifty versions of the scales are digital and radio-transmitted, and give you a display box you can take with you around the car while the car is on a lift on the scales and you adjust the suspension with another display that does the math for you (about $2000 minimum for ones like that). What you want to do is adjust each spring perch independently so that the sums of the cross-weights match. If a corner is low, you extend the spring perch (chair leg) to put more weight on that corner. Of course, that will then affect all 3 other corners, so you have to go around and around until you get the numbers you want.
Of course, this is all assuming that you're running the springs you want, because a change in the spring rate will cause height to change and all those adjustments to go out the window...
- once you've made all the corner weights perfect, you have to go back and check the ride height, because it's quite possible that all the corner weight adjustment has changed the ride height. If so, start all over again. Don't settle on "good enough"; the whole point of getting FACOS is to get it RIGHT, right?
Then, once it's all set, it's time to go to the race track. Start on the skidpad and check handling. Slight changes in alignment and ride height will help you here (with associated updates to corner weights), but if you need to change front-to-rear bias for better handling you have to change springs (but, of course, one of the big advantages to FACOS is that it uses standard springs - you get to pick-and-choose your spring rates for each end.) Change the springs, start from the top, Maestro! You can also tune the corner-weights for a particular race track, like Lime Rock which is all right turns save one; of course that will make it suck on the street where you're going to be hard-pressed to find only right-hand turns...
You asked if the springs can be installed for $200? Dude, you can't even properly align and setup the car with the springs INSTALLED for $200!!!
Whew! Have I gotten my point across?
I have a FACOS on my little Nissan race car, but I have a $1200 set of scales. We'll spend an entire day on initial suspension setup, and constantly twiddle with it at the track.
I would NEVER install FACOS on my street car. The ironic part is that any "tuner" worth his salt has gone through all the above with an adjustable suspension, tested it to perfection of spring rates, travel, and ride height and alignment, and then took those specs and developed a comparable off-the-shelf replacement spring to give you something probably DAMN close to what you're gonna end up with on a FACOS. It just makes no sense to have all that adjustability, ESPECIALLY considering that when you finally get it set up you'll likely NEVER change it! Because if you do, you've got to start all over from the top. Kinda silly to have that adjustability when it ain't ever gonna be adjusted...
Installing a fully-adjustable coil-over suspension on a car without properly setting it up is either posin' or pissin' in the wind. It may look nice in your sigline, but you're actually hurting the car's handling.
As an alternative, consider the costs of finding a top-notch set of adjustable shocks and aftermarket springs, and paying someone to swap out the springs twice a year like you would for snow tires. You'll pay a bit annually in labor, but you'll be using a proven solution that anyone with an alignment rack can deal with.
Unfortunately, since I'm not very knowledgeable about the TT specifically, I'll have to defer specific suspension suggestions to others. What I suggest is to drive other same-type cars that have the various combinations you're interested in. It's *you* that has to live with those combos, not me and not the guy that claims his suspension is the best, and your tastes will vary from mine and his. There's nothing better than actually riding in or driving a car that has a spring/shock candidate. Don't take others' words for it, try it yourself and decide what your compromise is.
And it will be a compromise. "The Ultimate" for the track will be unacceptable for going to work, while a sportier suspension will give you a better handling car without leaving most of your undercoating on the parking lot speed bump or requiring monthly dental visits.
I just thought of something else you really should do with FACOS: have adjustable-end swaybars. In racing, swaybars are a tuning device, not a suspension device; you size the suspension springs to give you the weight balance and anti-roll that you want, THEN you apply swaybars to tune the balance of the car.
If the bars are attached during the suspension setup phase, then a bar may have a load (or "torsion") applied to it, screwing up your actual cross-weights (one end of the bar will lift a wheel, while the other end is pushing down). AFTER the car is set up you install swaybars with adjustable Heim-joint end to install it with no preload at all. If you don't have adjustable end bars, you'll have to force one end into place, preloading it, and screwing up all the work you just did.
For the street, bars are a nice compromise. Since street cars need to have a somewhat-compliant ride, swaybars are a way to make the car "feel" like it has stiffer springs on the outside corner of a turn. When a car rolls, the inside wheel drops relative to the car, pulling down on the bar which pulls down on the outside tire, forcing it into the pavement. It "thinks" it has a stiffer spring. Of course, if you lift the inside wheel off the ground then you've reached the limit of the bar's capability and it doesn't work any harder.
Lots of things to think about. I'd like to think the off-the-shelf "tuners" have put that much thought into their products.
02-02-04, 03:21 PM
#3
Originally posted by ilike2eatricers
Can you write a cliff notes version? I'm lazy and my eyes are tired.
Can you write a cliff notes version? I'm lazy and my eyes are tired.
Basically you can't properly set-up a set of coil overs without very expensive equipment(so expensive it doubles the cost of getting coil overs) And if you make just one change you have to start all over with the setup. In other words its way above our heads for street use. A race team can afford the equipment for coil overs to be setup and they actually will benefit from the adjustability because they see a wide range of situations at various tracks while we just see the streets. It is more likely that we will mess up the handling of the car than it is probable we get a boost in handling from coil overs without a lot of money and a lot of time spent "adjusting" everything you need to adjust to get the right performance you need to make it worth it over a quality "off-the-shelf" system.
Santiago
02-02-04, 03:29 PM
#5
Originally posted by Fitness Stain
what would be a good suspension setup then?
something thats useable for street
what would be a good suspension setup then?
something thats useable for street
What I got from reading this was that basically it is better to experience different setups and combo's of springs/struts and descide for yourself. What I might find great and best overall you might think is too stiff or too soft. It is best to descide on your own because of varrying tastes in ride stiffness and all the other change's and characteristics that suspension setups have. You shouldn't take a huge step by buying some setup based on what I personally say you should always take it with a pinch of salt because our views and preferences could be completely opposite of each other.
Santiago
02-02-04, 03:33 PM
#6
Lives on the Forum
It is true for EXTREME ride height differences per corner.
In reality, you can "eyeball" the ride height to within half a inch.
Very small differences in corner weighting is not going to affect suspension that much - ever try corner weighting a STOCK spring chassis? It's already off from the factory! Should we go bitching to the auto manufacturer that our corner weights are off? That's getting ridiculous.
I think the original write of that article has a bone to pick with all the adjustable coilover kits on the market.
ANYONE who has gone with an adjustable coilover kit will attest that their suspension is stiffer AND better. In this case, stiffer does equal better.
One of the biggest advantages of these adjustable coilover kits, is the ability to easily (and economically) change out spring rates to your hearts desire. Try and to that will other drop-in spring kits...
-Ted
In reality, you can "eyeball" the ride height to within half a inch.
Very small differences in corner weighting is not going to affect suspension that much - ever try corner weighting a STOCK spring chassis? It's already off from the factory! Should we go bitching to the auto manufacturer that our corner weights are off? That's getting ridiculous.
I think the original write of that article has a bone to pick with all the adjustable coilover kits on the market.
ANYONE who has gone with an adjustable coilover kit will attest that their suspension is stiffer AND better. In this case, stiffer does equal better.
One of the biggest advantages of these adjustable coilover kits, is the ability to easily (and economically) change out spring rates to your hearts desire. Try and to that will other drop-in spring kits...
-Ted
02-02-04, 03:40 PM
#7
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Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
... You shouldn't take a huge step by buying some setup based on what I personally say you should always take it with a pinch of salt because our views and preferences could be completely opposite of each other.
Santiago
... You shouldn't take a huge step by buying some setup based on what I personally say you should always take it with a pinch of salt because our views and preferences could be completely opposite of each other.
Santiago
So don't make snap decisions on stuff, research it as much as possible. I drove the TII I now own for more than a week before I decided it was the car for me. (the guy selling it was really cool
)
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02-02-04, 06:49 PM
#10
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When I was a student in Tucson AZ I used to have the Tokico HPs and ST springs on my yellow TII and it handled great. I moved back home and got another TII, but this time on this one I have Teins HA with pillow mounts and it handles much better. If you find the adjustment you want you can make the car ride very well. Not very stiff and not very soft. Also the car is more responsive on turns. I could never go back after using coilovers. I also like the ability to change the spring rates if I want. But this is just my opinion....Some people like them some don't.......
02-02-04, 07:55 PM
#11
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It is true that to properly setup adjustable coilover suspension, corner balancing is highly recommended. I don't know why people don't do it...it's not that expensive.
On the other hand, adjustments and the necesity to have them on a street or even occasional autocross car is very debatable. In japan it is very common for the street cars to use a middle to high end suspensions that has non-adjustable dampening, and only height/preload adjustments.
More of a matter of the public being informed/misinformed there. The US "tuner" community is still a bit behind in being suspension savvy. I remember some guy who was looking for suspension on a street car and was asking if it was monotube, external reservoir, compression/rebound independent adjustable...all cool things to have and definitely hip terms to throw about...but when I told him the price, he gave me a look like I was crazy.
Is it necessary to change dampening levels every day? Me thinks no. I havent changed my settings in half a year and am very happy with my setup.
I think the author of that article was fed up with all of the hype and the whole 'coilover mystique' that's been running amok lately. Getting a set without corner balancing will provide better handling...not exactly the best, but you will definitely be better off than when you started.
Suspension is a very sensitive and thorough subject...just as many variables go into suspension and suspension tuning as engine tuning...
On the other hand, adjustments and the necesity to have them on a street or even occasional autocross car is very debatable. In japan it is very common for the street cars to use a middle to high end suspensions that has non-adjustable dampening, and only height/preload adjustments.
More of a matter of the public being informed/misinformed there. The US "tuner" community is still a bit behind in being suspension savvy. I remember some guy who was looking for suspension on a street car and was asking if it was monotube, external reservoir, compression/rebound independent adjustable...all cool things to have and definitely hip terms to throw about...but when I told him the price, he gave me a look like I was crazy.
Is it necessary to change dampening levels every day? Me thinks no. I havent changed my settings in half a year and am very happy with my setup.
I think the author of that article was fed up with all of the hype and the whole 'coilover mystique' that's been running amok lately. Getting a set without corner balancing will provide better handling...not exactly the best, but you will definitely be better off than when you started.
Suspension is a very sensitive and thorough subject...just as many variables go into suspension and suspension tuning as engine tuning...
02-02-04, 08:44 PM
#12
Originally posted by rexman13b
duh, who didn't know that **** about coilovers? by the way i agree with j-rat's sig. he should shove the whatever tester up his ****, and quit posting this ****.
duh, who didn't know that **** about coilovers? by the way i agree with j-rat's sig. he should shove the whatever tester up his ****, and quit posting this ****.
02-02-04, 08:49 PM
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Well you gotta remember...these people are driving fairly new (expensive) audi's...we on the other hand are driving 80s sports cars. Their suspension systems aren't worn out, and they are probably a lot better designed then ours (german engineering ). That is why they don't notice as much of a difference as we do. But I agree with many of the points from the article, most people don't need all that adjustability. Of course its cool to be able to adjust all that ****, and some people just like the feeling of knowing they can do that. For me, I know I don't need and will never have a use for all that adjustibility, so I just go with a regular set of shocks and springs lol.
). That is why they don't notice as much of a difference as we do. But I agree with many of the points from the article, most people don't need all that adjustability. Of course its cool to be able to adjust all that ****, and some people just like the feeling of knowing they can do that. For me, I know I don't need and will never have a use for all that adjustibility, so I just go with a regular set of shocks and springs lol.
02-02-04, 08:56 PM
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On a different note, you guys really have no reason to flame 87RX7guy. I'm not one to stick up for people I don't really know but I have really learned a lot from all the stuff he posts, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one that learns from him. We all aren't geniouses like you rexman13b, and that is what the forum is for, to learn.
I'll be honest, I didn't know "that ****" about coilovers. Actually I really learned a lot about suspension systems in general from reading this thread.
who didn't know that **** about coilovers?
02-02-04, 09:08 PM
#17
Originally posted by RETed
It is true for EXTREME ride height differences per corner.
In reality, you can "eyeball" the ride height to within half a inch.
Very small differences in corner weighting is not going to affect suspension that much - ever try corner weighting a STOCK spring chassis? It's already off from the factory! Should we go bitching to the auto manufacturer that our corner weights are off? That's getting ridiculous.
I think the original write of that article has a bone to pick with all the adjustable coilover kits on the market.
ANYONE who has gone with an adjustable coilover kit will attest that their suspension is stiffer AND better. In this case, stiffer does equal better.
One of the biggest advantages of these adjustable coilover kits, is the ability to easily (and economically) change out spring rates to your hearts desire. Try and to that will other drop-in spring kits...
-Ted
It is true for EXTREME ride height differences per corner.
In reality, you can "eyeball" the ride height to within half a inch.
Very small differences in corner weighting is not going to affect suspension that much - ever try corner weighting a STOCK spring chassis? It's already off from the factory! Should we go bitching to the auto manufacturer that our corner weights are off? That's getting ridiculous.
I think the original write of that article has a bone to pick with all the adjustable coilover kits on the market.
ANYONE who has gone with an adjustable coilover kit will attest that their suspension is stiffer AND better. In this case, stiffer does equal better.
One of the biggest advantages of these adjustable coilover kits, is the ability to easily (and economically) change out spring rates to your hearts desire. Try and to that will other drop-in spring kits...
-Ted
Ted, I was under the impression that to change spring rates you had to change out springs entirely. Is this incorrect? Also any other nice bits of info you would like to share with use would be awesome!
Santiago
02-02-04, 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
Thanks Josh.
I really don't see anything wrong with posting actual information about setting up something and then asking for discussion. But some people just can't handle that I guess....
Santiago
Thanks Josh.
I really don't see anything wrong with posting actual information about setting up something and then asking for discussion. But some people just can't handle that I guess....
Santiago
or maybe they can't admit they learned somethin too
02-02-04, 09:16 PM
#19
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
Ted, I was under the impression that to change spring rates you had to change out springs entirely. Is this incorrect?
Ted, I was under the impression that to change spring rates you had to change out springs entirely. Is this incorrect?
Most of the top quality coilover kits use Eibach ERS "race" springs, which cost a little over $100 per pair. So if you feel the need to change spring rates, these springs are easily available from 100#-in all the way over 1,000#-in!
-Ted
02-02-04, 09:21 PM
#20
Ah I see, well 200 dollars per spring rate change isn't that bad if you only use say two rates maybe somthing like a "street" rate and a "race" rate. I think something like that could be used for versatility. But I still don't feel I need coil-over's because I don't think I would be able to extract the most performance from them since I don't know of a place with individual corner scales I could commission. THe only place I have see with a scale is the city dump and one truck scale but thats it.
Santiago
PS- Ted, Do you think that even an "eyeballed" coil over setup is worth the extra money than a conventional spring/strut setup?
Santiago
PS- Ted, Do you think that even an "eyeballed" coil over setup is worth the extra money than a conventional spring/strut setup?
02-02-04, 09:49 PM
#21
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Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
PS- Ted, Do you think that even an "eyeballed" coil over setup is worth the extra money than a conventional spring/strut setup?
PS- Ted, Do you think that even an "eyeballed" coil over setup is worth the extra money than a conventional spring/strut setup?
Mazdatrix has a table of off-the-shelf OEM replacements, and they maybe hit 200 at the highest. Most of the coilover kits run at least 300 in front, if not more like 400!
-Ted
02-02-04, 09:51 PM
#23
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Originally posted by 1987RX7guy
PS- Ted, Do you think that even an "eyeballed" coil over setup is worth the extra money than a conventional spring/strut setup?
PS- Ted, Do you think that even an "eyeballed" coil over setup is worth the extra money than a conventional spring/strut setup?
Corner weighing will get you a little more out of your aftermarket coil overs but it is not NEEDED for them to work perfectly well and alot better than stock.
02-02-04, 09:51 PM
#24
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Originally posted by neptuneRX
ok for the ignorant, whats the difference between coil over and spring/strut? And the advantages of both?
ok for the ignorant, whats the difference between coil over and spring/strut? And the advantages of both?
-Ted
02-02-04, 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by neptuneRX
ok for the ignorant, whats the difference between coil over and spring/strut? And the advantages of both?
ok for the ignorant, whats the difference between coil over and spring/strut? And the advantages of both?
What everyone is talking about is anaftermarket coil-over system with some sort of threaded collar which seats the spring that you can move up/down on the strut therefor changing the effective heigh of the car without changing the spring rate at all.
That is the whole point of an aftermarket adjustable coilover package.